How to dim a Meanwell ELN-60-48D... - Page 5

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 11:15 AM

I don't think I've ever seen a simple, cheap, 100% off the shelf "no need to get your hands dirty" solution to this problem, hence this thread's existence.

IMHO if you're not going the microcontroller route (i.e. Arduino or similar) your best bet is to find a 12v wall wart and wire up an adjustable voltage regulator if you want 0-10v output for a D-type, or a 555 timer if you want 10v PWM for a P-type. Both of these circuits would cost maybe $5 in parts and consist of 15 minutes of soldering on a perfboard - a perfect intro to DIY electronics and probably not beyond the reach of anyone who's building their own LED rig.

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic_07

will do. I'm at work now though. Can't do it until i get home. hmmmmnnnn

should i fake illness so i can go home now??????

Sure. Blame it on your sleepy-eyed state from the night before.

madmike · 03/30/2010, 11:26 AM

Before I set my meanwell 60-48D I want to make sure I am doing this right. To set the max current, I wire up all of the leds, I connect either the + or the - to the string and leave the other one "open". On the open channel I use my multimeter set in AC mode and connect the open channel with the led string and adjust the pot inside? What current do you think would be best? I have 4 xp-g cool whites and 8 RB xr-e

Oh, and I know I need to have 10v supplied to the dimmer in order for the driver to be at full power and I will not power on the driver until all connections are in place.

Do I need to adjust the internal dimming pot at all?
Thanks!

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 11:47 AM

Mike,

This would be my approach:

1) Wire the entire circuit up, but don't turn it on (yet).
2) Adjust the internal trimpot all the way to the lowest setting. Make sure you get the current pot, not the voltage pot (not used).
3) Connect a 10v source to the dimming circuit.
4) Break the LED circuit and put your multimeter in series with the LEDs (as you described) and set the multimeter to an appropriate range if applicable.
5) Plug the meanwell in.
6) Check the current reading on the multimeter. Adjust the internal current limit pot up until you hit your desired current.

In other words, YES you SHOULD do the "base setting" with the internal pot. The external dim circuit isn't meant to control the max limit, it's meant to adjust down from the internal pot's setting. IMHO if you want to just run the things (not control them) you should set the current with the internal pot and apply 10v to the external dimming circuit.

madmike · 03/30/2010, 11:54 AM

Thanks der wille zur macht! Which pot is the current pot. I see a pot under the silver shield with a hole in it to adjust and a pot near the edge.

Thanks again!
Mike

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 12:02 PM

Not sure, check the datasheet- I think they're identified in there.

stugray · 03/30/2010, 12:24 PM

The current pot is the one outside the Al shield.

Also, set your meter to A or mA not AC, and you have to move the leads. One in COMM (GND), the other in A/mA

Stu

Skeptic_07 · 03/30/2010, 12:58 PM

Guess what? I wrote us a book just to complicate things further.

After doing a whole bunch of googleing I've come up with some stuff. There are some extremely expensive units that wont get your hands dirty but will increase the cost of your build considerably! 0-10V lighting control is a lighting standard but it is mainly used in stage lighting and in Europe.

This pdf is on 0-10V lighting control standards and it just made me more confused than I already was.

Apparently there are two 0-10V standards, one is mainly used for stage lighting (current source) and the other is for dimmable ballasts (current sink). I have no clue what standard the meanwells use, probably the ballast standard, but who knows? Here is the meat and potatoes:

Quote:

There is an IEC standard for current sink controls - Standard 60929 Annex E. The standard requires that the ballast (or driver) provides full light output when the control voltage is 10 Volts (or above). As the control voltage is reduced by the control, the light level is reduced. At a control voltage of 1 volt, the ballast (driver) provides it’s minimum light level. Any voltage less than 1 volt is defined as minimum. Some drivers' minimum is off, while other drivers' minimum is the lowest light level of the driver. It is important to understand what minimum is for a particular driver. For drivers that do not go to off at minimum, a separate relay or switching device is required.

The article doesn't have a blurb like that for the other type.

There is also this website which has yet another confusing description. Ever heard of a bleecon connector? Reading that was like stabbing my eyes with scissors but I did uncover a bit of useful info at the end of the article. here's some more meat:

Quote:

The definition of 1-10V ballast controlling method is included to IEC 60929 standard. In this system one controller can control up to 50 ballasts. Active control voltage range is 1-10V (voltages in 0-10V range are allowed). In this system every ballast is a current source that feeds 0.2-1 mA current to the line (0.3 mA typical). The controller is a current sink that sinks current so that the voltage on the line drops to ne wanted control voltage level. The controller current sink must be able to sink up to 100 mA at 1V output and up to 50 mA at 10V output to be able to control many ballasts (up to 50). The controller must be able to work with as low as 0.2 mA current to work reliably with only one ballast connected. The standard is only designed for lamp dimming level controlling (no special on/off controlling).

So that should at least give us some more clues as to how many drivers can be run on a controller and how this all works. After reading that, and seeing how we were controlling our strings, makes me wonder what the ufk is REALLY going on here. If the driver is a source and the controller is a sink, and we were basically hooking it up backwards, HOW THE HECK WAS IT WORKING FOR EVERYONE?!?! no, no.. this must be wrong..

I'm starting to hate these meanwell drivers.

Below is some product research but none of it is useful. Its all jumbled up and unorganized and i'm not sure any of it is useful so enter at your own risk.
Here are some control boxes for stage lighting: one, two. I have no idea if those would work, i can't even tell if the 0-10V is input or output. Even just a simple 0-10V wall slider is a ridiculous price and doesn't even allow for automation. Also this wall dimmer with no price and i can't find anyone selling it. There's this thing: 0-10V analog output unit which I assume is probably for something specific and it has rj-45 connectors on it for C-bus?? whatever the heck that is. I find myself saying that a lot these days... Another controller with no price. ALOT of the products I'm coming across are European. another one from europe, and only like 7 pounds. here is some really expensive 0-10v control from europe I've also come across MANY >$1000 units that can control a bajillion things including 0-10v for djs, lighting effects for concerts, stage lighting, etc...

Googleing "0-10V" and adding things like "dimmer" or "lighting control" to it get you all kinds of confusing info about highly technical, expensive gadgets and lighting systems. Its good fun for when you're bored at work! Of course, you get alot of results of that are just dimmable fluorescent ballasts, which use the same standard, but wading through them you can find some controllers and tidbits of info.

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 01:06 PM

Skeptic, I guess for me, it boils down to this: We know that the drivers will sink current because that's what they're doing for a majority of people (hook up a 10v regulated wall wart, or some other 10v source). Seems like you've discovered they'll source it, too. While it might be of academic interest to know exactly what's going on, that's good enough for me to say that we know how to control the things.

Luckily for the people who want an "off the shelf" solution that's cheap, the next best thing (DIY'ing one of the two circuits I mentioned above) is REALLY easy to do, and if you're able to assemble an LED array it should be no problem at all.

Skeptic_07 · 03/30/2010, 01:16 PM

true that. We don't even know if these drivers are IEC 60929 standard. I would assume that they were, but as we all know where assuming gets you. It doesn't mention that standard in the datasheet at all. It very well could be the stage lighting standard where the controller is the current source. It might be that the P type drivers are a source and the D type is a sink.

SWINGRRRR · 03/30/2010, 03:43 PM

Had a good day today playing with things. I'm going to ask my buddy if he has a more sensitive DMM to check the mA coming out of the dim sheild. DZW has alot of the reading so he can compile it and post what he wants out. There's also 2 videos but Ill let him post them if he wants.

Skeptic_07 · 03/30/2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Can you at least probe the two DIM connections with a multimeter and tell us what they show? i.e. when the unit is plugged in to the wall but nothing is connected to the DIM circuit.

ok.. so after connecting power both P or D show roughly -1V. i have dim - connected to COM and dim + connected to V. is this right can you have negative voltage? current reads 0. D's frequency is allover the place and P is solid 60hz

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 06:00 PM

Sure, you can measure "negative voltage" - it just means the "ground" you're measuring against is at a higher potential than the test point you're probing in a circuit. Don't think of ground as absolute zero - everything in the circuit is relative.

Can you repeat those readings while you're dimming with your configuration?

The dimming results SWINGRRRR got were all pretty much as expected. When full on, there was 10v across the dim circuit. He tried to measure current but it registered zero - I'm guessing it was just below the threshold for his multimeter.

stugray · 03/30/2010, 06:32 PM

"Someone needs to sit down for a few hours with both meanwells, an oscilloscope, and a few different signal sources and figure out what's really going on here."

I will volunteer if someone wants to donate 1X D type & 1X P type, I will figure it out ( you might even get your drivers back ....).

Then posting the results might get tricky. I have seen threads "disappear" from this forum when they started delving into "reverse engineering" things.

I could at least figure out what they do to them to make the difference between P & D... I am guessing it is very minor and could be done to a standard 60-48.

Stu

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 06:35 PM

Stu,

No worries about this thread disappearing because we're testing meanwells.

I'm with you in guessing that the differences are minor at best. People have already reported that the P-type responds to an analog signal (i.e. if you apply constant 5v you get a dimmed output, vs applying a constant 10v giving you a 100% output). And of course many devices meant to take an analog signal will approximate a dimming response when fed a PWM signal where the "on" state matches their max analog voltage.

I wonder if they're identical save an R-C filter on the analog version or something like that.

Skeptic_07 · 03/30/2010, 06:40 PM

i don't know what to do

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/30/2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic_07

i don't know what to do

Find something that works and run it.

SWINGRRRR · 03/30/2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Make something that works and run it.

Fixed it for you.

Skeptic_07 · 03/30/2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Find something that works and run it.

i dunno man all i keep getting is 5v... i guess it wasn't working. i'm trying to get a hold of my friend who was helping me but hes n/a right now.

oh well...

it dimmed alot better than just plugging it right into the header on the arduino.

der_wille_zur_macht · 03/31/2010, 06:15 AM

Measure the current on the output while sending it a "full on" signal via your methods, then measure that current again with the DIM circuit connected to a known-good 10v source (i.e. a well regulated wall wart or something) and compare.

Skeptic_07 · 03/31/2010, 11:51 AM

I was actually trying to do that last night and I found out my 10v regs were mis-labeled, they say 10 on them, which means they should put out 10V, but 4/5 put out 13V. one got fried because of a solder bridge i didn't see. it was funny. it got so hot i melted solder with it.

madmike · 04/01/2010, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Also, set your meter to A or mA not AC, and you have to move the leads. One in COMM (GND), the other in A/mA

Stu, in looking at my multimeter, it has 200ma max! written on it and the switches only go to 200ma, so I'm assuming its useless for this job? Any recommendations on a good relatively inexpensive meter. I don't do alot of electrical work so I dont need anything real fancy, just something that will work.

Thanks!

stugray · 04/01/2010, 09:05 AM

madmike,

You can get a Craftsman DMM that reads thermocouples AND does all these voltage & current measurement things I do to my LEDs.

Front panel says: 82139 ~$30 from Sears.

Stu

madmike · 04/01/2010, 09:13 PM

Thanks

Skeptic_07 · 04/12/2010, 09:19 AM

I got DWZMs ELN shield this weekend and fired it up. It works great! It worked on Meanwell ELN-60-24P and ELN-6048D drivers.

I was completely wrong earlier in this thread! The drivers are not a current source, they are a sink. The controller should be a source. Tunzes work in the opposite way from these. My confusion came from hooking the meanwell up incorrectly, thinking it was working off the circuit, when it was really just working directly off the arduinos signal. Sigh.... dammit self... you're an idiot. Anyways, the shield works great. Anyone trying to get an Arduino to work with meanwells, this is the way to do it!

EDIT.. but don't try to test the output with a multimeter! I fried one of the transistors doing that!

03/30/2010, 11:15 AM	#101
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	I don't think I've ever seen a simple, cheap, 100% off the shelf "no need to get your hands dirty" solution to this problem, hence this thread's existence. IMHO if you're not going the microcontroller route (i.e. Arduino or similar) your best bet is to find a 12v wall wart and wire up an adjustable voltage regulator if you want 0-10v output for a D-type, or a 555 timer if you want 10v PWM for a P-type. Both of these circuits would cost maybe $5 in parts and consist of 15 minutes of soldering on a perfboard - a perfect intro to DIY electronics and probably not beyond the reach of anyone who's building their own LED rig. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

03/30/2010, 11:47 AM	#104
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Mike, This would be my approach: 1) Wire the entire circuit up, but don't turn it on (yet). 2) Adjust the internal trimpot all the way to the lowest setting. Make sure you get the current pot, not the voltage pot (not used). 3) Connect a 10v source to the dimming circuit. 4) Break the LED circuit and put your multimeter in series with the LEDs (as you described) and set the multimeter to an appropriate range if applicable. 5) Plug the meanwell in. 6) Check the current reading on the multimeter. Adjust the internal current limit pot up until you hit your desired current. In other words, YES you SHOULD do the "base setting" with the internal pot. The external dim circuit isn't meant to control the max limit, it's meant to adjust down from the internal pot's setting. IMHO if you want to just run the things (not control them) you should set the current with the internal pot and apply 10v to the external dimming circuit. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

03/30/2010, 12:02 PM	#106
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Not sure, check the datasheet- I think they're identified in there. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

03/30/2010, 12:24 PM	#107
stugray Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Longmont, Co Posts: 4,566	The current pot is the one outside the Al shield. Also, set your meter to A or mA not AC, and you have to move the leads. One in COMM (GND), the other in A/mA Stu __________________ Some people think that I have Attention Deficit Disorder. They just dont understand that........ Hey! Look a chicken! Well, We KNOW GOD exists, but for US to exist without a GOD is preposterous….Umm wait a minute…. Sounds a bit circular to me… Current Tank Info: 125 Gal. display w/80 gal mud/caulerpa sump. Basement sump w/ LED Grow Light,Gravity fed Reeflo200 skimmer w/ ORCA Recirc, DIY calc reactor & kalk stirrer. Inline plumbed 75 Gal frag/settling tank.

03/30/2010, 01:06 PM	#109
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Skeptic, I guess for me, it boils down to this: We know that the drivers will sink current because that's what they're doing for a majority of people (hook up a 10v regulated wall wart, or some other 10v source). Seems like you've discovered they'll source it, too. While it might be of academic interest to know exactly what's going on, that's good enough for me to say that we know how to control the things. Luckily for the people who want an "off the shelf" solution that's cheap, the next best thing (DIY'ing one of the two circuits I mentioned above) is REALLY easy to do, and if you're able to assemble an LED array it should be no problem at all. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

03/30/2010, 11:26 AM	#103
madmike Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vancouver WA Posts: 678	Before I set my meanwell 60-48D I want to make sure I am doing this right. To set the max current, I wire up all of the leds, I connect either the + or the - to the string and leave the other one "open". On the open channel I use my multimeter set in AC mode and connect the open channel with the led string and adjust the pot inside? What current do you think would be best? I have 4 xp-g cool whites and 8 RB xr-e Oh, and I know I need to have 10v supplied to the dimmer in order for the driver to be at full power and I will not power on the driver until all connections are in place. Do I need to adjust the internal dimming pot at all? Thanks!

03/30/2010, 11:54 AM	#105
madmike Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vancouver WA Posts: 678	Thanks der wille zur macht! Which pot is the current pot. I see a pot under the silver shield with a hole in it to adjust and a pot near the edge. Thanks again! Mike

03/30/2010, 01:16 PM	#110
Skeptic_07 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: lawn guy land Posts: 1,418	true that. We don't even know if these drivers are IEC 60929 standard. I would assume that they were, but as we all know where assuming gets you. It doesn't mention that standard in the datasheet at all. It very well could be the stage lighting standard where the controller is the current source. It might be that the P type drivers are a source and the D type is a sink.

03/30/2010, 03:43 PM	#111
SWINGRRRR Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pcola FL Posts: 2,504	Had a good day today playing with things. I'm going to ask my buddy if he has a more sensitive DMM to check the mA coming out of the dim sheild. DZW has alot of the reading so he can compile it and post what he wants out. There's also 2 videos but Ill let him post them if he wants. __________________ Have you ever tried to hold a monkey still if it is not drunk ~ insteng Current Tank Info: 45gal Rimless mixed reef--SWC 150BMK--2xMP10ESW--Giesemann 150W HQI

03/30/2010, 06:00 PM	#113
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Sure, you can measure "negative voltage" - it just means the "ground" you're measuring against is at a higher potential than the test point you're probing in a circuit. Don't think of ground as absolute zero - everything in the circuit is relative. Can you repeat those readings while you're dimming with your configuration? The dimming results SWINGRRRR got were all pretty much as expected. When full on, there was 10v across the dim circuit. He tried to measure current but it registered zero - I'm guessing it was just below the threshold for his multimeter. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

03/30/2010, 06:32 PM	#114
stugray Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Longmont, Co Posts: 4,566	"Someone needs to sit down for a few hours with both meanwells, an oscilloscope, and a few different signal sources and figure out what's really going on here." I will volunteer if someone wants to donate 1X D type & 1X P type, I will figure it out ( you might even get your drivers back ....). Then posting the results might get tricky. I have seen threads "disappear" from this forum when they started delving into "reverse engineering" things. I could at least figure out what they do to them to make the difference between P & D... I am guessing it is very minor and could be done to a standard 60-48. Stu __________________ Some people think that I have Attention Deficit Disorder. They just dont understand that........ Hey! Look a chicken! Well, We KNOW GOD exists, but for US to exist without a GOD is preposterous….Umm wait a minute…. Sounds a bit circular to me… Current Tank Info: 125 Gal. display w/80 gal mud/caulerpa sump. Basement sump w/ LED Grow Light,Gravity fed Reeflo200 skimmer w/ ORCA Recirc, DIY calc reactor & kalk stirrer. Inline plumbed 75 Gal frag/settling tank.

03/30/2010, 06:35 PM	#115
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Stu, No worries about this thread disappearing because we're testing meanwells. I'm with you in guessing that the differences are minor at best. People have already reported that the P-type responds to an analog signal (i.e. if you apply constant 5v you get a dimmed output, vs applying a constant 10v giving you a 100% output). And of course many devices meant to take an analog signal will approximate a dimming response when fed a PWM signal where the "on" state matches their max analog voltage. I wonder if they're identical save an R-C filter on the analog version or something like that. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

03/30/2010, 06:40 PM	#116
Skeptic_07 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: lawn guy land Posts: 1,418	i don't know what to do

03/31/2010, 06:15 AM	#120
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Measure the current on the output while sending it a "full on" signal via your methods, then measure that current again with the DIM circuit connected to a known-good 10v source (i.e. a well regulated wall wart or something) and compare. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

03/31/2010, 11:51 AM	#121
Skeptic_07 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: lawn guy land Posts: 1,418	I was actually trying to do that last night and I found out my 10v regs were mis-labeled, they say 10 on them, which means they should put out 10V, but 4/5 put out 13V. one got fried because of a solder bridge i didn't see. it was funny. it got so hot i melted solder with it.

04/01/2010, 09:05 AM	#123
stugray Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Longmont, Co Posts: 4,566	madmike, You can get a Craftsman DMM that reads thermocouples AND does all these voltage & current measurement things I do to my LEDs. Front panel says: 82139 ~$30 from Sears. Stu __________________ Some people think that I have Attention Deficit Disorder. They just dont understand that........ Hey! Look a chicken! Well, We KNOW GOD exists, but for US to exist without a GOD is preposterous….Umm wait a minute…. Sounds a bit circular to me… Current Tank Info: 125 Gal. display w/80 gal mud/caulerpa sump. Basement sump w/ LED Grow Light,Gravity fed Reeflo200 skimmer w/ ORCA Recirc, DIY calc reactor & kalk stirrer. Inline plumbed 75 Gal frag/settling tank.

04/01/2010, 09:13 PM	#124
madmike Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vancouver WA Posts: 678	Thanks

04/12/2010, 09:19 AM	#125
Skeptic_07 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: lawn guy land Posts: 1,418	I got DWZMs ELN shield this weekend and fired it up. It works great! It worked on Meanwell ELN-60-24P and ELN-6048D drivers. I was completely wrong earlier in this thread! The drivers are not a current source, they are a sink. The controller should be a source. Tunzes work in the opposite way from these. My confusion came from hooking the meanwell up incorrectly, thinking it was working off the circuit, when it was really just working directly off the arduinos signal. Sigh.... dammit self... you're an idiot. Anyways, the shield works great. Anyone trying to get an Arduino to work with meanwells, this is the way to do it! EDIT.. but don't try to test the output with a multimeter! I fried one of the transistors doing that!