Full Spectrum DIY guide

[Blayz77]

thx for the response. ill have to look into the amount of effort it will take for this and the cost. i do plan on using an apex for this new tank.

[necco]

Also if you haven't done so already, check out Youtube for DIY LED setups. It would give you an idea on how much work or effort is needed. Youtube - Ricketsreef, he has some good videos up.

[Nanofreak79]

Originally Posted by necco

I do that, every color with its own driver. Also all controlled from my Apex

14 RB
14 B
12 CW
10 NW
10 V
4 G
4 CY

Originally Posted by dsdaley77

If people are more interested in my grammar and spelling then great for them. I am here to further my personal education regarding my hobby and if possible share info that has been given to me by others. I don't come here to argue with people and start crap. However, when some guy who I've never seen one post from since I've been here tries to attack me and focus on the above mentioned aspects instead of the question at hand I have a hard time accepting that. While my previous sentences and questions may have been a little extended, I really don't think that requires any response from you. Just ignore me if you don't even want to take the time to read what I wrote. As far as being combative or as you put it having an air of combativeness, just because I asked straight forward questions that you still have not answered does not make me combative. Look fact of the matter is, no one here cares about who is right just that someone is. Just because someone disagrees with you or your opinion with out having the same information you do to develop theirs does not make them combative.

Originally Posted by BeanAnimal

Correct, there is only so much light that can be used.

Reading what your "manufacturer" posted, it appears that the use of the words "full spectrum white" and "total spectrum" are the point of confusion. I am not sure what context he is speaking from (nor does it really matter).

As I said, the "white" LEDs are simply "blue" LEDs painted with a phosphor coating. To say anything more about their spectral output, one would need to see a plot showing what wavelengths the phosphors are being driven at. With a combination of emitters and broadband phosphors, I am sure that it is possible to approach a true "full spectrum" output.

My point was that we need to be careful when we discuss the topic and not confuse mixing single wavelength LEDs to achieve percieved "full spectrum" with true "full spectrum". With regard to what our corals require... that is a hot subject that is being hashed out in numerous threads and venues.

Does that help?

Be careful of what? The whole point of this thread is to share what is working. What looks good, or makes the corals look good. Also are your coral happy and growing or doing poorly under your current DIY setup. It has to look pleasing to the eye! If I'm chasing perceived full spectrum to make the corals look nice then so be it. I'm also trying to achieve true full spectrum for the health of my corals as well. We're all here because we want the best possible outcome. To help take a little guess work out of it for some, and help others change there current DIY. I don't care that it's a blue led coated in white phosphor, it's not cutting it. When I see 6500k,4500k etc I see a different color and that's what matters. It matters for people with MH and T5 so why not LEDs. Hopefully I didn't miss something here?
Edit....sorry didn't mean to quote everyone!

[jerpa]

Originally Posted by dsdaley77

Yes another quick question, do you feel or think that a single white 10-12k will have more spectral wavelengths than say a single r g or b?

Yes it will provide a wider spectrum than a red, orange, or blue LED.

If I use a combination of what both of you said I extract that while whites have other wavelengths required to make white, how much and what wavelengths can differ from bulb to bulb depending on source, intent of use and so on and therefore it is not safe to assume that any given white led can provide the nessesary full spectrums to grow corals on thier own.

This is correct in LEDs and MH, and any other lighting for that matter. I can show you three 10K bulbs, flourescent tubes, or LEDS and all can achieve a 10K look with a completely different spectral plot.

Based on what you said, and by the way I am very happy for this discussion as it can only help our hobby to clarify new technology, what would the basic differences be between a 6700 white and a 12000 k white. If all whites are blues with different coatings of phosphors than how do those phosphors play a part in providing specific light

Now I may be short-changing the actual physics but my understanding is the the light emitted from the LED excites the phosphor coating and "transforms" a portion of the light to various other wavelengths.These appear as a certain color temperature to us. The various phosphors used will determine what wavelengths make up the light we see as 10K.

(wavelengths not spectrums, and in a side note so as to define all for ease of understanding to all that read, wavelengths are specific levels of color present and spectrum is the collection of those wavelengths nessesary to make a secondary color, right?) to our corals and thier symbiotic friends?

Wavelengths are the specific "colors" of light, measured in nanometers, that make up any light source. The spectrum is a measure of the various wavelengths AND their various intensities relative to each other. The wavelengths present and their intensity determine what our eyes see.



I believe the point being made is that we should not count on the various reds, cyans, ambers, and greens included in many fixtures to contribute to photosynthesis. I could design a 10k light that included not one wavelength that contributes to photosynthesis. I think its a valid point to look at the spectra of the various combinations we are attempting to ensure that the basic needs of the animals we keep are met. Once these needs are met the aesthetic needs can be met any number of ways with any number of different LED's. People throw around Kelvin ratings in regards to LED's and as far as growing corals go, those numbers are meaningless. They tell us NOTHING about the actual spectral plot of said LED. One persons 10K led may provide lots of light in the blue range necessary for photosynthesis. Another manufacturers LED may include none, or very little, of these.

[wackeeash]

I'm still in the planning stages of my LED build and finding some helpful information here. One thing, where are y'all finding 10-12k LEDs, the highest ones I can find are the 6k.

[jerpa]

Originally Posted by wackeeash

I'm still in the planning stages of my LED build and finding some helpful information here. One thing, where are y'all finding 10-12k LEDs, the highest ones I can find are the 6k.

Most of the higher Kelvin LEDs are either name brand blue LEDs with a specific companies phosphor applied or they are on off-brand LED altogether. The large manufacturers only concentrate on the lower Kelvin whites because those are what we light our homes with. Some off-brand LEDs or vendor specific phosphors may be quite good but there is quite a bit variance between vendors and brands.

Look on ebay and you will find any number of LEDs. As to their quality, efficiency, binning etc... I wouldnt even begin to hazard a guess.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by dsdaley77

However, when some guy who I've never seen one post from since I've been here tries to attack me and focus on the above mentioned aspects instead of the question at hand I have a hard time accepting that.

I have not attacked you or done anything that can be confused as an attack. I have kindly answered your questions.

While my previous sentences and questions may have been a little extended, I really don't think that requires any response from you. Just ignore me if you don't even want to take the time to read what I wrote.

The questions were directed straight at me, in the process of a conversation with me. I kindly pointed out that I was starting to have trouble following along and your response was name calling.

Look fact of the matter is, no one here cares about who is right just that someone is. Just because someone disagrees with you or your opinion with out having the same information you do to develop theirs does not make them combative.

I was not aware that there was any "opinion" here to disagree with or a debate to win. I posted some factual information relevant to the topic and content of the thread. You have questioned (in a somewhat combative tone) the validity of the information and I have tried to kindly provide you the answers you are seeking.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by Nanofreak79

Be careful of what? The whole point of this thread is to share what is working. What looks good, or makes the corals look good. Also are your coral happy and growing or doing poorly under your current DIY setup. It has to look pleasing to the eye!

Correct! Many of us really don't like the look of most of the current breed of LED fixtures, even though they grow coral. In fact, I can't stand it and have spent considerable time working to come up with a combination of emitters that will sustain a wide range of SPS AND be pleasing to my eye. I like crips Iwasaki white with a hint of actinic

The "be careful" was in context to making sure that when we talk about "full spectrum" we are all ojn the same page, as the context matters. It could be in context to true full spectrum light (the sun) or additive light that appears to be "full spectrum" (what most folks in this thread are talking about. Both contexts are important.

I don't care that it's a blue led coated in white phosphor, it's not cutting it. When I see 6500k,4500k etc I see a different color and that's what matters. It matters for people with MH and T5 so why not LEDs. Hopefully I didn't miss something here?
Edit....sorry didn't mean to quote everyone!

That is the rub, finding hte right mix of "white" leds and RGB (or other additive native emitter wavelengths) is tough. FWIW, many of the other colors are coated with respective phosphors as well...

Off to eat... more when I come back

[Blayz77]

when i think full spectrum i guess its more along the lines of the sun, where the fixture has more colors then just white and blue. i saw a post in here with a crayon colored layout of a bunch of colors that to me was looking interesting.

are there any video references that show any diy lighting with all these different colors in use? all the ones i see on you tube are basically just white/blue... saw a couple that had rbg but over freshwater tanks so it didnt have any real purpose outside of looks.

would such a light with all the bells and whistles be benificial? like the orange and uv and whatever other odd ball colors that can be used.

[jerpa]

The "fact" that white LEDs are blue diodes coated in phosphors isn't really a debatable topic to be backed up by sources. Google the process of making a white LED. They are all made by applying phosphors. There are variations within each manufacturing run and between manufacturers. Fluorescent lighting technology is based around the same principles of using phosphors to create different spectra. You may want to read up on the basics of LED manufacturing and binning as well as the limitations the technology has. These aspects aren't specific to each manufacturer, they are an inherent part of the entire industry.

As an aside, and I don't mean to offend you, but many people will skim over "poorly" constructed posts. They are harder to read and can be confusing. I have seen that comment made many times and while some do not make them, many more simply do not read or respond to a post like that.

[dsdaley77]

Here's an article I just read on LEDs and spectral plots. Great stuff

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/aafeature

[dunk373]

Originally Posted by advancebc29

Look at any spectrum output of any white LED. Just about all stop around 450ish and also tend to have very little higher then 660ish so this is not true full spectrum. If we had single full spectrum LEDs that would solve a lot of issues. The LEDs your friend is using can grow plants very well as they tend to have a lot of orangish and redish light. They can also grow coral but are just not ideal.
Halide lights and other forms of lighting like T5s for coral have developed specific spectrum peaks that help corals both grow and color up nicely. For some reason all this was thrown out the window when LEDs came into the mix. Just within the last year or 2 have the DIY crowd started to figure this out and now the store bought fixtures will start to play catch up.
You are forgetting one thing when comparing plants to corals and that is water. Water absorbs the higher spectrum of light very quickly so corals tend to use more of the lower spectrum that can penetrate the water. Plants like the higher spectrum and my guess is can probably use both as they are readily available.

good chart above. the problem with us speculating about what our corals need is very hard, how deep are our corals in the wild? What spectrum do they see? If they see a certain spectrum in the wild do we HAVE to match that or get close? I think that we can color corals differently depending on what you want. Say you have a valida and only have 420-470nm over it it will be a different color then if you give it some 600s or even 700nm range. The chlorophyl changes in the corals maybe more A or B will change the look.

[dunk373]

To add to the questions lol. Haven't we all given traded bought or sold a coral to someone with different lighting, and the coral looks totally different in your tank than theirs maybe better maybe worse? I had this happen to me many different times. Some better some worse.

the bottom line we know we need 420nm, 450-485nm so uv, rb, blue do we need white, green or red? or will more green white red just color the coral differently if thats the case its just what you like or your opinion of a nice color.

[dsdaley77]

And just curious, does ozone or lack of some make a difference? I mean I'm supposed to be at a higher risk for melanoma than say someone in Hawaii or even closer like San Diego. What could the possible impact be?

[BeanAnimal]

Sir,

Nobody has attacked you, called you names or attempted to engage you in an argument. I have in no way been defensive or attempted to avoid providing "sources" and have simply tried to answer your questions, even when they have not been clearly articulated. In return each of your responses has been somewhat combative in tone and wording, including name calling and insult. Please, there is no place for that here and it does nothing to further the conversation or help you gather the information you are looking for.

Sources:

I am not sure exactly what you are looking for. LEDs and they way they convert energy is a well known and documented subject. Being a long settled hard science, documentation is not normally cited or needed when the subject comes up. Are you looking for a scientific document regarding how electricity is turned into photon energy? Are you looking for scientific documentation regarding the function of phosphors? Are you looking for scientific information regarding the properties of light, spectra and wavelength? Again, I (we) have tried to answer your questions, but some of them have not been clear enough to give you a pinpoint answer.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by dsdaley77

And just curious, does ozone or lack of some make a difference? I mean I'm supposed to be at a higher risk for melanoma than say someone in Hawaii or even closer like San Diego. What could the possible impact be?

That subject is beyond the scope of this conversation, but ozone helps to filter out some wavelengths of light, including UV (or at least in theory according to some). More UV has been shown studies to lead to higher rates of skin cancer. That said, the amount of cloud cover, geographical location (in relation to the sun, reflected light, average cloud cover, etc) all also would come into play.

[Blayz77]

ive seen a few multichip threads and i like the fact you dont have to use so many leds and have all that wire criss crossing, the only thing is i like that you can add different colors with the smaller 3w. Has anyone played around with the idea of mixing multichip and 3w together? or does this present a problem when mounting on the same heatsink?

Why do you prefer to use just the 3w led? what are the main differences from using multi chip only or 3w only and oor mixing of the two types?

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by dsdaley77

just so were clear, I called you one name, was never combative until by my standards you crossed the line and took the convo from LEDs to grammar and punctuation.

I kindly pointed out that I was having trouble trying to figure out exactly what you were asking. There is no place or excuse for name calling and insults.

If as you say I am so bad and this is factual industry info than we can get from someone else, please excuse yourself as this is getting old and you and your ignorance annoy me

... or just shut up and move on.

Sir, you have now called me ignorant twice, a jerk and a jackass and told me to shut up. Your behavior is simply not acceptable and if you feel annoyed, then you may wish to utilize the "ignore user" feature so that you are not tempted to sling further insults.

If on the other hand, you wish to continue the conversation you will need to articulate exactly what information you are looking for. Nobody is avoiding you, being defensive, insulting you, or attempting to argue with you. I kindly ask again, what are you looking for that has not been provided? Are you looking for information regarding the additive properties of light, the function of the retina and cones in your eyes, the differences between CCT, CRI and true spectrum? What are you looking for?

[Tickle]

Originally Posted by Blayz77

at some point this 120g sitting here is gonna need some lights when i get it up and running. i have pretty much decided on using led's and was considering some pre build units like the radions or something comparible.

having said that im always looking for something new to tinker with and the idea of possibly doing a diy light setup sparks a little interest. realistically what would be a ball park estimate for a diy setup for a 48" x 24" x 24".

L X W / +-16
48x24/16=72

72*3=216

So you would need 216 watts of led lighting for optimal growth. whether or not you use a 3 watt chip or a 10 watt chip,50,100 so on so forth as long as you achieve that 200 range you should be good, id use a optic if i were you.

[jerpa]

Originally Posted by Tickle

L X W / +-16
48x24/16=72

72*3=216

So you would need 216 watts of led lighting for optimal growth. whether or not you use a 3 watt chip or a 10 watt chip,50,100 so on so forth as long as you achieve that 200 range you should be good, id use a optic if i were you.

I think using this formula without looking at the efficiency of the specific LEDs in question is kind of silly. Your using a formula made for high end cree and bridgelux emitters. Multichips are always less efficient than 3w designs and often use diodes that are far from the most efficient available. It's not all about the watts so while that might be a good startimg point a lot of it will depend on what specific LEDs you go with.

[BeanAnimal]

Not only does the electrical efficiency come into play, but so does the distance from the tank and the use (or not) of optics and the actual wavelengths of LEDs in question.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by dsdaley77

At this point I really don't care about anything you have to say, you just sit there in your little world thinking your a saint. Far as I'm concerned you are ignorent and since you can't count, or spell or edit your own posts and are so concerned with mine the "ignorent" count is now 2 good day sir

You may want to make note that the proper spelling is "ignorant". I attempted to kindly answer your questions. I am sorry you feel the need to use name calling and personal attacks, but it is not fair to me or the others that are participating in this thread. No good ever comes of it.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by Tickle

L X W / +-16
48x24/16=72

72*3=216

So you would need 216 watts of led lighting for optimal growth. whether or not you use a 3 watt chip or a 10 watt chip,50,100 so on so forth as long as you achieve that 200 range you should be good, id use a optic if i were you.

I would also note (in addition to what was already posted) that that "rule of thumb" was likely based on the 2:1 RB/CW ratio that has been the primary setup that most DIYs and fixtures have used. In context to this thread, that 200W may become 300W or more based on the need for significant amounts of other colors tha are needed for color rendering but not growth. Throwing the multi-chips into the mix makes things even more confusing. Not having run both, I would not know how to compare them, let alone follow a rule of thumb.

I am still firmly staddling the fence between 3w discretes and 100W custom multi-chips.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally Posted by dsdaley77

If you can't understand what I'm asking about here than I don't know what to tell you.
1)Do you feel or think that a single white 10-12k will have more spectral wavelengths than say a single r g or b?

A 10K or 12K LED is built from a blue (or other) LED coated with phosphors. Some of the underlying color shines through as well as the spectral output from the phosphors. The "10K or 12K" rating means that the output somewhat looks like an ideal 10K or 12K full spectrum source. Without looking at a spectral plot, it is hard to see what peaks are in there but due to the phosphors, there is certainly more spectral diversity than a mix of single wavelength R G and B emitters.

2)Are wavelengths specific levels of color present and spectrum is the collection of those wavelengths nessesary to make a secondary color?

A wavelength is a single frequency of light, measured in nanometers. It is part of the electromagnetic spectrum just like a single radio frequency, microave frequency, etc. So yes, multiple wavelengths are present in a "spectrum".

3)Would you agree that whites have other wavelengths required to make white.

Yes, "White" light is the combination of many wavelengths. The subject is a bit more complicated than that, but think about how a prism works. If you don't know (it is beyond easily explaining here) it would be a good starting point.

4)is it true that wavelengths can differ from bulb to bulb depending on source, how it was manufactured and so on?

Yes, if we take a pile of "14K" bulbs from various vendors, they will all be comprised of different amounts of various wavelengths. You need to read about CRI (Color Rendering Index) and CCT (Corrected Color Temperature) to understand the Kelvin ratings assinged to lights. They really have nothing to do with the actual wavelengths and more to do with the way the light looks and/or is compared to the "ideal" black body color temperature.

5)Would you agree that it is not safe to assume that any given white led can provide the nessesary full spectrums to grow corals on thier own, but minus uv is possible?

Becuase a "white" led could be comprised of just about anything, it is safe to say that alone they may not be suitable to grow coral.

This is all I was ever trying to get at. It seems to me that if a white LED's spectral plot shows peaks in blue, red, yellow or orange that those colors are there but may not be visible in thier true colors as they have been mixed to make a new (visually) color, correct or no????

They are in fact visible becuase they are contributing to the final color rendering you see. The ratios of those colors determins not only the "temperature" of the "white" but also the way certain objects look under it. So to go back to the differences between two 14K sources that are side by side. Both may "look" the same color, but object of varying color will display differently under them. This is again explained by understanding CRI and CCT. So a good starting point would be using google to read about CRI and CCT. I am not avoiding explaining it, you would be better served visiting several web resources and reading.

[jerpa]

I am still firmly staddling the fence between 3w discretes and 100W custom multi-chips

I stood at a local LFS staring at the ReefTech fixture the other day thinking the same thing. I can't seem to find the definitive specs on the LED's included but it is probably the best discrete emitter design I've seen from an aesthetic perspective. I tried to talk to one of the employees but he had no interest in telling me anything. Do they utilize an MCPCB? It kind of follows your line of thinking with regard to the number of emitters. I can't imagine you'd have to run anywhere near full power with ~70 leds per fixture or whatever it is but using that many emitters gives you lots of color options.