STOP Selling These Species! (rant)

[Code4]

Originally Posted by scottch

was in a lfs and saw them selling a mandarin to a guy who said he just set his tank up last week. The store had no issues selling him the fish either.

WOuld be nice if they stopped doing this type of thing.

I can be a bit brash at times. I would have suggested cycling their tank a while longer and looking up the feeding requirements on Reef Central. I know the guys at Petco have heard me. I might get banned from there! It is the closest thing we have unless I drive to Colorado. I am enjoying reading the thoughts of people on this post.

Shelley

[CStrickland]

Malira the only way your helmet excuse doesn't affect other people is if we leave the kid on the side of the road if I can't afford an ambulance. That's why a lot of states require helmets. All three are examples of stuff that some people think of as personal choices that we regulate because they affect other people too. Whether it's the person who gets hit by a drunk driver, the kids who is wheelchair bound for life / taxpayers who foot the bill, or victims of diminished herd immunity. Same with collecting fish from the ocean, it's a shared resource. That said, if I lived in Southeast Asia and my kid was hungry, I'd be the first one in line at the cyanide store.

I don't think these stores should be going through fish like they do, but I think that selling consumers on the reasons why would work better than making rules and spending money enforcing them. This site is great for that, local clubs could help a lot too.

[malira]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

Malira the only way your helmet excuse doesn't affect other people is if we leave the kid on the side of the road if I can't afford an ambulance. That's why a lot of states require helmets. All three are examples of stuff that some people think of as personal choices that we regulate because they affect other people too. Whether it's the person who gets hit by a drunk driver, the kids who is wheelchair bound for life / taxpayers who foot the bill, or victims of diminished herd immunity. Same with collecting fish from the ocean, it's a shared resource. That said, if I lived in Southeast Asia and my kid was hungry, I'd be the first one in line at the cyanide store.

I don't think these stores should be going through fish like they do, but I think that selling consumers on the reasons why would work better than making rules and spending money enforcing them. This site is great for that, local clubs could help a lot too.

We agree on more than you think. Your last paragraph is spot on.

I believe that as society we should not take the responsibility for someone else's stupity/choice. I would wear a seat belt and a helmet because I believe it's smart to. If someone chooses not to, then they would be responsible for their own care. If you can't afford a wheelchair, hopefully you family or charity can help. I do not believe tax payers should be on the hook for that. Our kids suffer and benefit from our choices everyday. Why should this be any different.
Drinking and driving is not drunk driving. Enough said.
I believe in vaccinations because they do effect everyone.

[SoloChromis]

Originally Posted by IUfan

Sound a bit paranoid here, I'm not trying to take away your guns, relax haha.

Doesn't have to be government based, would just be an organization implementing a few rules. A small multiple choice test is not much to ask in return for being able to buy whatever species they pluck from the reef. If your getting into this hobby with how much time we all dedicate to it, it would be a very small ask. And remember you'd still be able to buy captive bred fish without which may increase demand for more captive bred species.

Those collection areas that are built on the SW fish trade, well they will have to adapt and learn to captive breed more of the fish in that area.

I'm not taking a "I'm holier than thou" stance, I'm meeting a passion for my hobby, reef keeping and also a passion for protecting the environment, and seeing if there's perhaps some solutions we can discuss trough here, that's all.

I think you make some very good points, and if there were such a thing as a license to keep certain species it would certainly help weed out those too lazy to take a simple multiple choice test (let alone perform water changes ). Personally, I think this should go for any pet really (in an ideal world), how many stories do you hear of people abandoning their defenseless dogs, or releasing their overgrown turtles into local streams creating a ripple effect within the ecosystem. I just think it's gotten to the point where the market is *so* flooded with animals that we as human beings have bred in such a way that they are rendered helpless on their own, that adding any additional regulation to hopefully help home these animals to people who can properly provide for them, would more likely end up getting more animals euthanized than anything. At that point it's a police state, where having a pet is somehow a status symbol... *ahem* I went way off course there Anyways, our hobby as a whole is not even close to the ocean's biggest issue at hand right now, but over time, as more people begin keeping tanks, I think it will start to have an effect, and I think the government will eventually start putting more and more regulations up if we don't start investing in more sustainable practices. I've heard plenty of people say "yeah... but tank-bred fish are just too expensive". Considering the cost of starting up a tank, a $10 difference in one fish, that will help fund aquaculture facilities, is nothing. It's that kind of cheapness is what shut down the mandarin breeding program at ORA. Now people can spend $20 a pop on fish that more often than not, will refuse prepared food, so good investment guys Those "Snorkel Bob" guys may be a joke here on RC, but they have a hell of a lot more say on what we can and cannot take out of "their" reefs than we do, so lets try our best to not look like a bunch of spoiled, ignorant pillagers

[malira]

A person should have get a license to have kids.

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by malira

We agree on more than you think. Your last paragraph is spot on.

I believe that as society we should not take the responsibility for someone else's stupity/choice. I would wear a seat belt and a helmet because I believe it's smart to. If someone chooses not to, then they would be responsible for their own care. If you can't afford a wheelchair, hopefully you family or charity can help. I do not believe tax payers should be on the hook for that. Our kids suffer and benefit from our choices everyday. Why should this be any different.
Drinking and driving is not drunk driving. Enough said.
I believe in vaccinations because they do effect everyone.

There are other things you must include to the above.. I live in Kentucky We have the highest rate of CANCER Related to smoking. So IF what you say is true then everyone who smokes should be forced into a MUCH Higher insurance or just dropped. BECAUSE WE ALL Pay for there lack of Judgment on taking care of them self.. Then you could go into obesity and Children born with Bad birth defects.. Society did not tell those people to have children.. So why should the gov with our tax money help them....
This is just one example of what would happen if EVERYONE Had to fend for Themselves regardless of situation....

I do not think forcing license on fish keepers is a solution to anything.. It will just make the Gov have something else to reg and make money off of.. Maybe forcing a license on stores and Acceptable Collection techniques . But then again cost will be passed to consumers.....
Education across the Board is what is NEEDED... We all need to help teach the next generation of humans to be more kind to this planet and aware of our presence...

Maybe a large international Fish keeper association self ruled sorta like a NRA .. Where fish keepers can be a part of and only buy from shops who follow the rules of selling and buying stock meeting some sort of understanding on helping keep things alive and healthy.

[malira]

Originally Posted by ericarenee

There are other things you must include to the above.. I live in Kentucky We have the highest rate of CANCER Related to smoking. So IF what you say is true then everyone who smokes should be forced into a MUCH Higher insurance or just dropped. BECAUSE WE ALL Pay for there lack of Judgment on taking care of them self.. Then you could go into obesity and Children born with Bad birth defects.. Society did not tell those people to have children.. So why should the gov with our tax money help them....
This is just one example of what would happen if EVERYONE Had to fend for Themselves regardless of situation....

I do not think forcing license on fish keepers is a solution to anything.. It will just make the Gov have something else to reg and make money off of.. Maybe forcing a license on stores and Acceptable Collection techniques . But then again cost will be passed to consumers.....
Education across the Board is what is NEEDED... We all need to help teach the next generation of humans to be more kind to this planet and aware of our presence...

I don't know how you meant the first paragraph but I agree. Government (we the people) should not be forced or expected to pay. We can't make people make good choices but we should make them suffer the consequences.
But people don't have to fend for themselves. There is family, charity group, charity hospitals among other. We as a society are very generous.

Now licensing the stores or sellers that is a great idea. Education and information that is fantastic. Moody Gardens Aquarium in Galveston partners with villages and communities that collect livestock to educate them in best practices to insure they can survive on these practices for a long time. Reefs and fish are coming back.

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by malira

I don't know how you meant the first paragraph but I agree. Government (we the people) should not be forced or expected to pay. We can't make people make good choices but we should make them suffer the consequences.
But people don't have to fend for themselves. There is family, charity group, charity hospitals among other. We as a society are very generous.

Now licensing the stores or sellers that is a great idea. Education and information that is fantastic. Moody Gardens Aquarium in Galveston partners with villages and communities that collect livestock to educate them in best practices to insure they can survive on these practices for a long time. Reefs and fish are coming back.

Sorry yea re reading my first part was kinda a ragged example.. I was just making a point that if we say everyone had to fend for Themselves regardless of situation it would be bad..But at the same time.. Does that mean we can STOP PAYING FOR TREATING People who harm Themselves from a ahhhh.. habbit they choose to partake in i guess.. I do not mind my tax dollars going to help a truly needed family get a wheel chair for there disabled child. But paying for Cancer treatment for someone who smoked all there life.. NOPE.... There may even by something i do that insurance should not pay for. But we try to take care of ourselves.. Just do not want it to look like i am pointing out.. My dad dies of cancer my mother prob will too. Its stupid and a way of life here... SO GLAD NO MORE smoking in Public.. oops another society regulated activity now.. . I WILL Weld that can of worms shut..

Maybe we need to Organize better and self Regulate The industry ourselves thou education.. By Teaching Lfs To Practice better buying and selling practices. This will lead to better collection practices as well..
PEOPLE CAN FORCE Change with Dollars...

[Bent]

Originally Posted by malira

What?

What do you mean what?

I see blue ribbon and black ribbon eels for sale constantly, and they are impossible to get to eat.

[malira]

^^^^^I totally agree. ^^^^^^

[malira]

Originally Posted by Bent

What do you mean what?

I see blue ribbon and black ribbon eels for sale constantly, and they are impossible to get to eat.

I didn't that.

[Customride0105]

I have had great luck on getting a blue ribbon eel to eat silver slides. It took 1 mth to get him to start eating but after that was cake

[Bent]

Originally Posted by malira

I didn't that.

Lol

I think we r speaking two diff languages my man.

[malira]

Originally Posted by Bent

Lol

I think we r speaking two diff languages my man.

That's too funny.

I meant I didnt know that.

[alton]

There are thousands of LFS, there are only a few importers. But only self regulation will work, Government regulation is costly. $15 permit for a $15 Clown Fish, Government does not use common sense, when you ask for regulation for something they don't just regulate one thing. We had a kid here in Texas just recently die from a Cobra bite, who in the heck keeps a Cobra. But staying on the subject why would an importer bring in a Blue Ring Octopus, or a Bumble Bee Grouper. One of my LFS received a Bumble Bee Grouper a few years ago, and another two Blue Rings, which they did not order they were just sent.

[KafudaFish]

Originally Posted by malira

A person should have get a license to have kids.

What is the application process?

[alton]

A Marriage License?

[that Fish Guy]

Originally Posted by alton

There are thousands of LFS, there are only a few importers. But only self regulation will work, Government regulation is costly. $15 permit for a $15 Clown Fish, Government does not use common sense, when you ask for regulation for something they don't just regulate one thing. We had a kid here in Texas just recently die from a Cobra bite, who in the heck keeps a Cobra. But staying on the subject why would an importer bring in a Blue Ring Octopus, or a Bumble Bee Grouper. One of my LFS received a Bumble Bee Grouper a few years ago, and another two Blue Rings, which they did not order they were just sent.

Who keeps Cobras?

A Heck of a lot more people than you think.

You would be surprised.

Very Very Surprised.

[Buzz1329]

Originally Posted by SoloChromis

It's an epidemic in this hobby that you'll notice at nearly every LFS you visit, there always seems to be those "showy" fish that every novice hopes he/she will get the greenlight from the employee at the store to go ahead and add to their tank, but the majority of the time have too small of a tank or the bulk of their fish wish list won't be compatible with these particular fish. The species I'm talking about are...

Baby Hippo Tangs (Paracanthurus hepatus) - Pitiful track record in aquaria and they're typically only sold because of the cute factor that grabs so many customers attentions. Hippo Tangs can be hardy fish, but seeing 20x 1" juveniles wedged in the cracks of coral skeletons makes me wonder how many will actually survive and thrive longterm.

Dascyllus Damsels (3 stripe, 4 stripe, domino etc.) - Is anybody ever happy they added these fishes to their tank? This genus represents a good chunk of the fish "horror stories" that people love to talk about (mine was a Hoeven's wrasse, go figure ), and if it's not a situation where some poor soul simply didn't expect that little black and white guppy to turn into a murderous tyrant, than it was one of those people that still insists on putting animals through torturous conditions to cycle their tank, only to toss the surviving fish after the tank is nice and broken into. The bottom line is this - there are too many other benign, affordable, and brightly colored damsel species to keep selling the Dexter Morgan of damselfish (minus the vague morals and strange likability) using the excuse "people need damsels".

Baby Clown Triggers (Balistoides conspicillum) - By far THE most popular among novice hobbyists IME, at least when it comes to asking "would that be okay in my tank?". These fish are misleading, and I can guarantee you *most* people in this hobby do not have a tank large enough to comfortably house a full grown clown trigger, especially given their restrictive temperament and propensity to nip on things (like power chords ). They may sell quickly, but if they even survive to maturity they will most likely rip whoever is unlucky enough to be roomies with them to shreds. Not very fish friendly, let alone reef friendly.

Juvenile Panther Groupers (Cromileptes altivelis) - Like aquatic dalmatian puppies, they're freaking adorable... unfortunately like the clown trigger, they simply won't mingle well in 95% of tanks out there if they even make it to maturity. They grow way too big for any but the most massive of tanks and are highly predatory, so anything that can fit in his mouth is going there eventually. They're pretty much the opposite of pajama cardinals and foxfaces, everyone thinks they're beautiful, but they won't thrive in most tanks.

Sharks in general - Making it at the top of the wish list of every frat house that found a 75g on Craigslist, and of every guy that walks in asking "how much that is?", sharks really need to be one of those special orders people need to request, otherwise they end up in tanks that just won't work longterm. I've seen too many bamboo sharks crammed in the 55g tanks of high school students to think that most of these sharks are going to 500g+ sparsely decorated tanks or ponds with the appropriate tank mates.

Baby Clown Tangs - Same as so many on this list, poor survival rate and even if they *do* make it to a decent size, they more often than not prove to be terrors in the aquarium. Many perish even before being sold, so it's beyond me why stores keeping bringing them in. The larger specimens fair much better and can thrive in large enough tanks that don't house competitors that may cause them to "snap".

Vlamingii Tangs - Ever wonder why you constantly see these fish taking up residence in the coral runways at your local fish stores? It's because these personable, puppy like fish grow to a whopping 2 feet long! I'll admit, I had one ('Hudson') in my 120g for a year, but all along I knew he'd be going to a 1,600g reef, so it wasn't something I had to scramble to figure out once he got too big. These are one of the most commonly returned fish IME and so most end up just being tossed in whatever tanks are available, thus the trend of the scuffed up, HLLE ridden vlamingii tanks schooling under the surface as you pick out your next frag. They're wonderful fish, but just be sure you know you'll have somewhere for him to go once he gets too large for your tank. In my reckoning, these fish *should* be available, but just not in the numbers they are currently.

Horseshoe Crabs - Nobody has tanks for these poor guys, and considering their natural lifespan, it's a sad thing to consider their success rate in captivity long term.

... *steps off soap box*... *ahem* ... That is all

Good rant! Thanks because many of us would rant along.

My only hesitation is that there are some species (e.g., goniopora) that a few years ago, I would have added to your rant, but now it seems like some are having success with them. (Is that right or I am misinformed?)

But I agree that 99.99999% of the critters you cite are totally inappropriate for the average salt water aquarium, which is a shame.

Mike

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by alton

A Marriage License?

Kentucky NOW Recognizes Our Marriage License and the Bottom did not fall out of the ocean as many thought it would.....

On Topic We do have a Local fish store here that does not take Delivery of anything they did not order that is not suitable for a aquarium. But they do accept drop/off trade in for credit fish and So on from people who got them else where.... The other store with a lot of fish .. You can see many things there that should not be sold to this hobby.

Its so Sad... We did Rescue a Fish that we should not have Bought just to save its life.. We Call Her Mrs Mingi. Our Adult 3 year old Vlamingi tang.. She is Gorgeous Happy Healthy PET... WHO Is Sitting next to me watching me type this.. She loves her Mingi pond next to our Reef tank....Much better then the 10 gallon cube she was dyeing in....

[MegIsAwesome06]

This thread is really interesting. As a noob, I have a fish bucket list, but will not get them until I'm a pro. (Years and years from now) I'm learning a lot from this thread!

[that Fish Guy]

Originally Posted by malira

A person should have get a license to have kids.

LOL.

So true

So true

[SoloChromis]

Originally Posted by Buzz1329

Good rant! Thanks because many of us would rant along.

My only hesitation is that there are some species (e.g., goniopora) that a few years ago, I would have added to your rant, but now it seems like some are having success with them. (Is that right or I am misinformed?)

But I agree that 99.99999% of the critters you cite are totally inappropriate for the average salt water aquarium, which is a shame.

Mike

I appreciate it Figured it was something a lot of people here felt strongly about (no matter which "side" they belonged to). I think the issue with goniopora was more ignorance than anything. People simply didn't know which factor/s were leading to their poor survival rates in captivity, and what it was exactly that could be improved upon to help the goniopora thrive. This is a very similar case as the moorish idol. They don't get too large, they don't get extremely aggressive/predatory, yet very few succeed in getting these fish to last for more than a year or 2 under what they determine are the best conditions. There are speculations that your tank has to be pristine, others speculate that the water needs to be a bit "dirty", dirtier than any ideal SPS environment, some claim they will only do well in pairs, while others say they'll rip each other to shreds and pairing them really shouldn't be attempted. There's of course the sponge theory (if I can call it that ) that their natural diet is composed primarily of sponge (some say it's a specific sponge, possibly being green in color), and not even the best quality angelfish food will sustain them longterm, whereas others say it's more about how often you feed them than *what* it is you're feeding them. I didn't put moorish idols on my list because I do believe one day, like goniopora, we will figure out what exactly the key is in keeping them for close to their natural life span, but for now it's mainly speculation and little bits of solid information trickling in here and there. Compare this to say, a panther grouper, who we as hobbyists *know* what it is that they require to live happily and healthily, and what it is about this species that makes them incompatible with the vast majority of personal tanks out there. Thanks for the feedback again, and I may create another thread concerning this topic

[SoloChromis]

Originally Posted by ericarenee

Kentucky NOW Recognizes Our Marriage License and the Bottom did not fall out of the ocean as many thought it would.....

On Topic We do have a Local fish store here that does not take Delivery of anything they did not order that is not suitable for a aquarium. But they do accept drop/off trade in for credit fish and So on from people who got them else where.... The other store with a lot of fish .. You can see many things there that should not be sold to this hobby.

Its so Sad... We did Rescue a Fish that we should not have Bought just to save its life.. We Call Her Mrs Mingi. Our Adult 3 year old Vlamingi tang.. She is Gorgeous Happy Healthy PET... WHO Is Sitting next to me watching me type this.. She loves her Mingi pond next to our Reef tank....Much better then the 10 gallon cube she was dyeing in....

Good to here she went to a good home, and it's really awesome that you would set up a whole other tank for the sake of saving an animal, there's not enough people like that Vlamingii tangs in particular seem to be particularly intelligent and gentle, which makes it all the more sad when you see how many are put in compromised situations because people simply don't know (or care) what they require to thrive. How big is the pond?

[malira]

I hate killing or having fish or corals die also........but it's also how we learn. Thankfully we have forums where we can share what works and doesn't work. And it's the hobbist that sometimes leads the way to better and more cost effective ways of doing things. Aquaculture was for the hobbist.
Unfortunately look at the lionfish and python problem and you can blame the hobbist.

The way I see it is you won't protect what you don't love and you don't love what you don't know. It's a double egde sword. The more people who get into the hobby, the more demand you have for these fish. But now you have more people who love these fish and will want to protect them. Hopefully we don't get to the white rhino situation.