Melev's new 280g Starfire tank thread - Page 5

melev · 08/29/2006, 09:24 PM

I've simply been shaking them in too small a container, and trying to avoid hitting the coral on anything.

arconom · 08/29/2006, 09:26 PM

Did Borneman and Salifert want the specimens at the MACNA event? Or were they sent some Fedex?

melev · 08/29/2006, 09:39 PM

They both asked for them at MACNA. Salifert's owner, Habib, is attending. He's in Holland, so shipping them around the world does no good for him. You could always look into shipping Borneman some now, if you like.

Manogr · 08/30/2006, 06:49 AM

So Salifert is thinking in entering the cure products market? This sounds promising considering the quality of their tests... Do you have some more info in why they want them ?

Borneman probably is doing research and I can't wait for his valuable knowledge as always....

Any more "insider" info would be more than appreciated

rdmpe · 08/30/2006, 09:53 AM

How are you guys able to pull corals out for treatment? Arent' they attached to your rock or are they mounted to smaller rock pieces at their base? I've been just glueing and/or letting my frags encrust right on to my LR and my LR cannot be removed from my tank without major issues. It is mostly epoxied together! So if I get AEFW or redbugs am I SOL or what??

melev · 08/30/2006, 10:35 AM

Manogr, I asked about AEFW in the Salifert Forum if they were going to or working on a cure, and got a reply later that they would need some live specimens to test upon. So if others can bring some to Habib at MACNA, he'll probably bust out a Fisher Price Chemistry Set right there at the bar and create the perfect cocktail.

I know that Eric B. always is wanting to help on this one. Glad to know he's already begun.

Randy - When you need to pull a coral, you just snap it off. I'm not a fan of doing that, because typically they are positioined exactly how I like them, but if you just gotta get them out, it is possible. They can always be reglued again later.

rdmpe · 08/30/2006, 10:53 AM

Thanks Marc, related question ...
If you have a rock with a small bit of coral "encrustation" left on it, will that be able to form a new colony under good conditions?

arconom · 08/30/2006, 01:59 PM

Yes, that's why you have to chip every bit of coral off. So you will have to chisel off colonies.

It is a major issue theres no way around it. It's not a simple procedure like Redbugs are.

melev · 08/30/2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rdmpe
Thanks Marc, related question ...
If you have a rock with a small bit of coral "encrustation" left on it, will that be able to form a new colony under good conditions?

Yes, but during the treatment period, the encrusting coral must be removed as well. Using bone cutters, you can probably cut the stone under the coral remnant, and move that to the hospital tank.

You can't leave any Acropora tissue in your tank if you hope to starve out the AEFW.

dbrody01 · 08/30/2006, 08:12 PM

Hello,

Very nice tank. I have some questions about the sand bed in your display. What would you say is the average depth and grain size? Did you go with mixed sugar-fine and larger grains?

What source of live sand did you use, and did you seed it just once with a tiny amount? Have you had to do any kind of major reworking of the bed? Do you ever siphon parts of it?

Assuming that your streams don't tilt and blow directly onto your sand, do you still get a lot of sand displacement with your water flow, and if so does that cloud your tank? Have you noticed detritus build up between or behind the rockwork?

You might have answered these questions before, but your thread is just so long.

Thanks,
Dan

kendog261 · 08/30/2006, 10:14 PM

Mark

I see that you have used a few different brands of salt. What brand, brands do you prefer are there any that I should not use?

melev · 08/30/2006, 10:18 PM

Dan, you aren't willing to wade through 310 pages for those answers? What am I, some type of Answering Machine?

The sandbed is made up of AragaLive aragonite-based sand that is sold at the LFS. I'd say it is all sugar-fine sand.

While I'd prefer a smooth level sandbed in my tank, the Tunzes and VorTech reshape it to their own desire. I added another bag of sand a few months ago to fill in the void, and it cratered away within mere days. The flow can be as much as 12,000 gph through the tank when all pumps are on high.

The sandbed in the back is definitely a DSB, compared to what you see in front. There are high sections and low sections, and part of that can be blamed upon the Tigertail Cucumbers as well.

When I lift up a larger coral or piece of live rock from the sand, there is significant detritus floating about briefly, clouding up the water for 20 minutes or so. I've never tried to unearth major sections, and I've never siphoned it either. I believe the nassarius snails and the hermits do a good job of working over the surface, as do the serpent starfish.

I seeded it with a few cups of live sand from my old 55g, and a few cups from the existing sandbed that came with the 280g when we moved it. All the rest was rinsed thoroughly to wash out all the detritus that was fouling the sand. Over the past two years, I've added a couple of cups of LS from others twice. That's about it.

melev · 08/30/2006, 10:26 PM

Kendog261 - I'm very content using Kent Sea Salt. Over the past 9 years, I've used it for about 7.5 - 8 years of that time. Originally I used Instant Ocean, but there were issues with it not fully dissolving, and watching white stuff rain down in my tank on the corals, stinging them! gave me enough of a reason to change. Kent was a few dollars more than IO, and I figured why use the cheapest stuff on the market when I could 'give' a little more to my livestock.

For 9 months I used Oceanic, and that was disastrous for my livestock. I won't use it again. It burned the tips of several of my prized SPS corals, always after a new water change. They would take weeks to heal up, and the next water change would kill the new growth by enveloping with some type of brown slime. It was odd, but coincided with the water change itself. It is documented in my Personal Log, back in 2004 or early 2005.

Other brands have been tested but didn't really give me a reason to change, and I have 600g worth of TAAM's Ocean Pure in the garage that hasn't been opened yet. Since I have so many buckets of Kent Sea Salt in the garage, I don't see that happening any time soon. Hmm. I think I have a picture handy.

jnarowe · 08/30/2006, 10:32 PM

I like the Ocean Pure and supplement with Kent...I really like the way Kent disolves fast. So did Kent fix that problem after the merger? I haven't seen any tests done since but I would bet there have been many. Is there a thread about it?

melev · 08/30/2006, 11:14 PM

Yes, it was resolved. Bad batch that went out, and Kent replaced all 6 buckets that I had. Anyone that contacted them got it replaced if theirs tested bad.

selgado · 08/31/2006, 12:20 AM

That makes me want to try Kent. Great customer service! I weathered the Oceanic issues and contacted them to rectify the bad bucket and their response was no response. I had the same exact problems as you did with the tips of sps. I also had nasty brown slime in otherwise sterilized buckets and mixing powerheads. Since I switched back to IO I have had none of the issues I had while using Oceanic. I will never use Oceanic again (or as long as my bruised ego will allow, which will be for a long time).

melev · 08/31/2006, 12:51 AM

FYI, a few people were very angry with Kent because they didn't simply issue a recall nor contact the LFS' to warn customers a bad batch had made it in circulation, and it was both buckets and bags. People in the UK were testing and finding their salt had alkalinity readings of less than 1 dKH. Because I always test my saltwater for pH before I add it to my tank, I knew the salt was off. I just buffered it up, and never had problems in my tank.

It wasn't until others were posting about the lowered alk here on RC did I put two and two together. Then I tested mine for that specifically and found it was deficient. I called the 800 number on the bucket, and they had UPS come pick up 1 lb samples from each bucket. These were tested, and a few weeks later a truck arrived with six new buckets. I'm happy to get replaced salt, but I would have preferred if they'd issued a statement to warn hobbyists that there was an issue with investigating.

I'm still going to use the salt because my tank does well with it. And I'll continue to test temp, pH and salinity as before. This has always worked best for me.

dbrody01 · 08/31/2006, 11:39 AM

Thanks for the response,

So you aren't concerned with your display sand bed acculumating phosphate and other nutrients over time? If you are concerned, what would you do about it in a tank like yours? If not, shouldn't you be?

It seems like your total-system-water-volume to sand-bed-volume ratio is high enough that the accumulation would be pretty slow. But then again your system is only 2 years old. Trying to quantify nutrient accumulation in a sandbed can be hard. I was just wondering what kind of considerations you've made toward it in the future.

Thanks,
Dan

melev · 08/31/2006, 12:46 PM

Based on a lot of reading, I look at sand beds as a 5 year project. At that point, it needs to be replaced with new, similar to when we recarpet our homes because it won't last forever.

I am using a phosphate reactor to pull it out of the water so that should help keep that aspect under control. There are tanks that have had the same sand bed for 8 years or more and are doing great. It comes down to nutrient and bio-load.

A Tunze Wavebox would help keep the detritus in suspension, and additional pumps like the Tunze Streams should push it out and into the in-sump skimmer to remove organics before they can break down further.

Shrevis · 08/31/2006, 01:00 PM

Hey Marc, after keeping up with your website, thread and reefcast for a while, I finally have a question to post for you.... Have you looked into the Tunze waveboxes at all, because I don't remember reading anything about it specifically. I'm in the process of planning out my next tank and that was brought up as an option for water movement instead of cutting the glass and setting up a closed loop system. Any thoughts?

gkarshens · 08/31/2006, 01:21 PM

To Reef Central

Ha! Beat you Marc.

melev · 08/31/2006, 01:31 PM

Thanks Gabriel.

Shrevis, several club members have the Tunze Wavebox and love it. It definitely is fun to see how the corals ebb and flow in water. The Tunze forum here on RC used to have videos you could watch of it in action, but any number of people here probably could post videos if you ask for some.

The box is rather large and bulky, and there is the fact that the lifespan of the tank is weakened by 20% due to the back and forth action stressing the seams. That would be one for the "cons" list.

I've thought about putting one in my tank a number of times, but money and desire never aligned.

A closed loop or the use of Tunzes or VorTechs will keep your system's flow going nicely.

NuclearReefs · 08/31/2006, 04:18 PM

I seem to remember Mr Lin's Tank coming undone from a wavebox... that just sticks in my mind too.. awsome piece of equipment but i would definatley have the sides of the tank super supported to use one .

Yikes,, the oceanic Group buy horror stories flashbacks.....

HW marine mix for me but if i had a larger tank like marc's Id probably use kent mixed with HW ...

kendog261 · 08/31/2006, 06:05 PM

Mark

Do you recommend a sand bed for a tank. I really like the looks of them and was planning on setting up my new tank up with one.

melev · 08/31/2006, 06:06 PM

Yes, I prefer it and feel it is beneficial to newer hobbyists as it helps with denitrification.

08/30/2006, 06:49 AM	#104
Manogr Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 46	So Salifert is thinking in entering the cure products market? This sounds promising considering the quality of their tests... Do you have some more info in why they want them ? Borneman probably is doing research and I can't wait for his valuable knowledge as always.... Any more "insider" info would be more than appreciated __________________ Manogr

08/30/2006, 10:32 PM	#114
jnarowe Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Poulsbo, WA Posts: 14,710	I like the Ocean Pure and supplement with Kent...I really like the way Kent disolves fast. So did Kent fix that problem after the merger? I haven't seen any tests done since but I would bet there have been many. Is there a thread about it? __________________ Jonathan--Recovering Tankaholic. Current Tank Info: 70g fresh planted

08/31/2006, 01:00 PM	#120
Shrevis Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Everett, WA (deployed to the Persian gulf til fall '08) Posts: 3	Hey Marc, after keeping up with your website, thread and reefcast for a while, I finally have a question to post for you.... Have you looked into the Tunze waveboxes at all, because I don't remember reading anything about it specifically. I'm in the process of planning out my next tank and that was brought up as an option for water movement instead of cutting the glass and setting up a closed loop system. Any thoughts? __________________ Vicariously I live while the whole world dies Current Tank Info: 12gal Nano, 40 gal mixed reef, 20gal for a mated pair of black clowns

08/31/2006, 01:21 PM	#121
gkarshens Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Corona, CA Posts: 2,382	*To Reef Central* Ha! Beat you Marc. __________________ Gabriel It's about time!

08/31/2006, 04:18 PM	#123
NuclearReefs Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Fort Lauderdale Florida Posts: 2,606	I seem to remember Mr Lin's Tank coming undone from a wavebox... that just sticks in my mind too.. awsome piece of equipment but i would definatley have the sides of the tank super supported to use one . Yikes,, the oceanic Group buy horror stories flashbacks..... HW marine mix for me but if i had a larger tank like marc's Id probably use kent mixed with HW ... __________________ Kalkwasser in Coffee Current Tank Info: 125 RR SPS, LED's & T-5 O3's

08/29/2006, 09:24 PM	#101
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I've simply been shaking them in too small a container, and trying to avoid hitting the coral on anything.

08/29/2006, 09:26 PM	#102
arconom Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Middletown, NY Posts: 2,126	Did Borneman and Salifert want the specimens at the MACNA event? Or were they sent some Fedex?

08/29/2006, 09:39 PM	#103
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	They both asked for them at MACNA. Salifert's owner, Habib, is attending. He's in Holland, so shipping them around the world does no good for him. You could always look into shipping Borneman some now, if you like.

08/30/2006, 09:53 AM	#105
rdmpe Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,737	How are you guys able to pull corals out for treatment? Arent' they attached to your rock or are they mounted to smaller rock pieces at their base? I've been just glueing and/or letting my frags encrust right on to my LR and my LR cannot be removed from my tank without major issues. It is mostly epoxied together! So if I get AEFW or redbugs am I SOL or what??

08/30/2006, 10:35 AM	#106
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Manogr, I asked about AEFW in the Salifert Forum if they were going to or working on a cure, and got a reply later that they would need some live specimens to test upon. So if others can bring some to Habib at MACNA, he'll probably bust out a Fisher Price Chemistry Set right there at the bar and create the perfect cocktail. I know that Eric B. always is wanting to help on this one. Glad to know he's already begun. Randy - When you need to pull a coral, you just snap it off. I'm not a fan of doing that, because typically they are positioined exactly how I like them, but if you just gotta get them out, it is possible. They can always be reglued again later.

08/30/2006, 10:53 AM	#107
rdmpe Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,737	Thanks Marc, related question ... If you have a rock with a small bit of coral "encrustation" left on it, will that be able to form a new colony under good conditions?

08/30/2006, 01:59 PM	#108
arconom Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Middletown, NY Posts: 2,126	Yes, that's why you have to chip every bit of coral off. So you will have to chisel off colonies. It is a major issue theres no way around it. It's not a simple procedure like Redbugs are.

08/30/2006, 08:12 PM	#110
dbrody01 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 41	Hello, Very nice tank. I have some questions about the sand bed in your display. What would you say is the average depth and grain size? Did you go with mixed sugar-fine and larger grains? What source of live sand did you use, and did you seed it just once with a tiny amount? Have you had to do any kind of major reworking of the bed? Do you ever siphon parts of it? Assuming that your streams don't tilt and blow directly onto your sand, do you still get a lot of sand displacement with your water flow, and if so does that cloud your tank? Have you noticed detritus build up between or behind the rockwork? You might have answered these questions before, but your thread is just so long. Thanks, Dan

08/30/2006, 10:14 PM	#111
kendog261 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bothell, Wa. Posts: 73	Mark I see that you have used a few different brands of salt. What brand, brands do you prefer are there any that I should not use?

08/30/2006, 10:18 PM	#112
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Dan, you aren't willing to wade through 310 pages for those answers? What am I, some type of Answering Machine? The sandbed is made up of AragaLive aragonite-based sand that is sold at the LFS. I'd say it is all sugar-fine sand. While I'd prefer a smooth level sandbed in my tank, the Tunzes and VorTech reshape it to their own desire. I added another bag of sand a few months ago to fill in the void, and it cratered away within mere days. The flow can be as much as 12,000 gph through the tank when all pumps are on high. The sandbed in the back is definitely a DSB, compared to what you see in front. There are high sections and low sections, and part of that can be blamed upon the Tigertail Cucumbers as well. When I lift up a larger coral or piece of live rock from the sand, there is significant detritus floating about briefly, clouding up the water for 20 minutes or so. I've never tried to unearth major sections, and I've never siphoned it either. I believe the nassarius snails and the hermits do a good job of working over the surface, as do the serpent starfish. I seeded it with a few cups of live sand from my old 55g, and a few cups from the existing sandbed that came with the 280g when we moved it. All the rest was rinsed thoroughly to wash out all the detritus that was fouling the sand. Over the past two years, I've added a couple of cups of LS from others twice. That's about it.

08/30/2006, 10:26 PM	#113
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Kendog261 - I'm very content using Kent Sea Salt. Over the past 9 years, I've used it for about 7.5 - 8 years of that time. Originally I used Instant Ocean, but there were issues with it not fully dissolving, and watching white stuff rain down in my tank on the corals, stinging them! gave me enough of a reason to change. Kent was a few dollars more than IO, and I figured why use the cheapest stuff on the market when I could 'give' a little more to my livestock. For 9 months I used Oceanic, and that was disastrous for my livestock. I won't use it again. It burned the tips of several of my prized SPS corals, always after a new water change. They would take weeks to heal up, and the next water change would kill the new growth by enveloping with some type of brown slime. It was odd, but coincided with the water change itself. It is documented in my Personal Log, back in 2004 or early 2005. Other brands have been tested but didn't really give me a reason to change, and I have 600g worth of TAAM's Ocean Pure in the garage that hasn't been opened yet. Since I have so many buckets of Kent Sea Salt in the garage, I don't see that happening any time soon. Hmm. I think I have a picture handy.

08/30/2006, 11:14 PM	#115
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Yes, it was resolved. Bad batch that went out, and Kent replaced all 6 buckets that I had. Anyone that contacted them got it replaced if theirs tested bad.

08/31/2006, 12:20 AM	#116
selgado Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Toledo, OH Posts: 1,526	That makes me want to try Kent. Great customer service! I weathered the Oceanic issues and contacted them to rectify the bad bucket and their response was no response. I had the same exact problems as you did with the tips of sps. I also had nasty brown slime in otherwise sterilized buckets and mixing powerheads. Since I switched back to IO I have had none of the issues I had while using Oceanic. I will never use Oceanic again (or as long as my bruised ego will allow, which will be for a long time).

08/31/2006, 12:51 AM	#117
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	FYI, a few people were very angry with Kent because they didn't simply issue a recall nor contact the LFS' to warn customers a bad batch had made it in circulation, and it was both buckets and bags. People in the UK were testing and finding their salt had alkalinity readings of less than 1 dKH. Because I always test my saltwater for pH before I add it to my tank, I knew the salt was off. I just buffered it up, and never had problems in my tank. It wasn't until others were posting about the lowered alk here on RC did I put two and two together. Then I tested mine for that specifically and found it was deficient. I called the 800 number on the bucket, and they had UPS come pick up 1 lb samples from each bucket. These were tested, and a few weeks later a truck arrived with six new buckets. I'm happy to get replaced salt, but I would have preferred if they'd issued a statement to warn hobbyists that there was an issue with investigating. I'm still going to use the salt because my tank does well with it. And I'll continue to test temp, pH and salinity as before. This has always worked best for me.

08/31/2006, 11:39 AM	#118
dbrody01 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 41	Thanks for the response, So you aren't concerned with your display sand bed acculumating phosphate and other nutrients over time? If you are concerned, what would you do about it in a tank like yours? If not, shouldn't you be? It seems like your total-system-water-volume to sand-bed-volume ratio is high enough that the accumulation would be pretty slow. But then again your system is only 2 years old. Trying to quantify nutrient accumulation in a sandbed can be hard. I was just wondering what kind of considerations you've made toward it in the future. Thanks, Dan

08/31/2006, 12:46 PM	#119
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Based on a lot of reading, I look at sand beds as a 5 year project. At that point, it needs to be replaced with new, similar to when we recarpet our homes because it won't last forever. I am using a phosphate reactor to pull it out of the water so that should help keep that aspect under control. There are tanks that have had the same sand bed for 8 years or more and are doing great. It comes down to nutrient and bio-load. A Tunze Wavebox would help keep the detritus in suspension, and additional pumps like the Tunze Streams should push it out and into the in-sump skimmer to remove organics before they can break down further.

08/31/2006, 01:31 PM	#122
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Thanks Gabriel. Shrevis, several club members have the Tunze Wavebox and love it. It definitely is fun to see how the corals ebb and flow in water. The Tunze forum here on RC used to have videos you could watch of it in action, but any number of people here probably could post videos if you ask for some. The box is rather large and bulky, and there is the fact that the lifespan of the tank is weakened by 20% due to the back and forth action stressing the seams. That would be one for the "cons" list. I've thought about putting one in my tank a number of times, but money and desire never aligned. A closed loop or the use of Tunzes or VorTechs will keep your system's flow going nicely.

08/31/2006, 06:05 PM	#124
kendog261 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bothell, Wa. Posts: 73	Mark Do you recommend a sand bed for a tank. I really like the looks of them and was planning on setting up my new tank up with one.

08/31/2006, 06:06 PM	#125
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Yes, I prefer it and feel it is beneficial to newer hobbyists as it helps with denitrification.