Microfood culture: phytoplanktons, Rotifers, ciliates, Artemia, and copepods - Page 6

Luis A M · 08/11/2006, 02:13 PM

Andy must be overworked,guess he didnÂ´t check this

I think what he means,(and I share) is that harp.pods are nice and easy to culture,but they are mostly useless as larval food or for any other practical use for the hobbyist.
I thought mandarin feeding was the only use they had,but now I see that it is not practical to culture all the pods these guys need on a daily basis.It is better to wean them to adult bs and then frozen or prepared foods.Or left in a large tank with lots of LR with enough harp.pod population to keep them well fed.In this case you donÂ´t need to culture them either.
The copepods that we need are calanoids and cyclopoids that are a substantial part of oceanÂ´s plankton and of larvalÂ´s food.
I wanted to have it straight,cause many people could not know the differences between benthic and planktonic copepods and think theyÂ´re all the same.
Some harp.pod sellers exploit this confussion.There is a harp.pod being offered showing the picture of a calanoid pod.

FuEl · 08/14/2006, 11:48 AM

Summarising the inputs by Andy and Luis, herpacticoid copepods are actually benthic copepods which spend their time mostly on substrata. These are very easy to culture as their growth mainly depends on the amount of surface area provided. However as stated, fish larvae which are pelagic fair poorly on such copepods as their prey needs to be pelagic as well. As such, herpacticoid copepods are'nt suited for most fish larvae as most of the time they are'nt available in the water column.

Calanoid copepods are mainly pelagic. As such, the feasibility of culturing these guys would depend on the water volume that could be provided. The main drawback of such cultures is the amount of space the cultures would take up. While herpacticoid copepods are grazers (on diatoms. etc), these guys take up microalgae directly from the water. As such, food supplementation is also more of a hassle. The only publication on culturing calanoid copepods I can remember is about the culture of Gladioferens imparipes.

Luis A M · 08/14/2006, 01:44 PM

Very well summarized,Junkai!

I could only add that benthic adults and nauplii harp.are negative phototropic (run away from the light and congregate in dark places) while pelagic calanoids are the opposite.
There has been some limited use of harps in larviculture however;
Tisbe holothuriae has pelagic phototropic nauplii,and Euterpina acutifrons has pelagic adults and nauplii.This last species has proven to be easy to culture and extremely productive,as has been shown by Hawaiian researchers.Use of them has not prevailed,however,perhaps because they are not very appealing to larval fish.
There has been a bunch of papers on calanoid culturing in the last ten years (Klein Breteler,Stottrup and others).Nothing especially difficult,they thrive on phyto.Only that as productivity is lower,they need larger volumes of culture to obtain the desired amount of nauplii.

aomont · 08/14/2006, 06:32 PM

Luis and Fuel, IÂ´ll go searching the web soon, but do you have any links to these articles ?
The only information I have is the "Manual on the Production and Use of Live Food for Aquaculture" and itÂ´s really good but still short on copepods.

Just reading anything I can about everything...
Thanks,

Anderson.

spawner · 08/14/2006, 08:41 PM

We're doing 500,000 to 1,000,000 calanoids naups a day right now.

aomont · 08/14/2006, 08:53 PM

Where spawner ?

spawner · 08/14/2006, 09:28 PM

Florida

aomont · 08/14/2006, 10:32 PM

Spawner,
Could you make a brief description of how you produce them ?
If it was not to be asked, I understand, just too curious !
Anderson.

mwp · 08/16/2006, 01:12 AM

Going to post this in it's own thread too 'cause folks often look for the info and can't find it. Here are some of the earlier threads that name possible or actual copepod genera/species utilized as first foods for centropyge pygmy angelfish larvae:

acartia clausi - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=740764

Parvocalanus species - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=476262

Clausocalanus sp. & Oithona simplex - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=403757 - and - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=203229

There are probably others, but after searching for 2 nights through all the flame angel threads, that's all I could find.

Matt

mwp · 08/16/2006, 11:54 AM

Two quick articles on Copepod Culture:

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/W3732E/w3732e0t.htm

http://www.jyi.org/research/re.php?id=147

Matt

Luis A M · 08/16/2006, 01:31 PM

Matt,IÂ´m impressed!

Very good info including RC threads,extracts from books,papers and bibliography,everything is valuable

Knowing how to search in these days is everything.I gathered the data you showed thru the years reading books and contacting authors to have copies mailed.
And you only invested two nights to get it!

mwp · 08/16/2006, 02:01 PM

A big part too is knowing how to get the information FOUND - i.e. it's not easy to search RC, and the words contained in the post mean so much when it comes to finding things - i.e. if you search for "Flame" vs. "Flame Angel" vs. "Centropyge" or "Copepod", or any combination of those, in the breeding forums, you'll get entirely different threads. Jam packing those titles and posts with as many key words as might be relevent for the topic helps other people find the info (i.e. googling "Spawning Synchiropus" vs. "Breeding Synchiropus" will give you entirely different results, yet within both those results may be some relevent info).

Anyway, I hate to pump up such a powerhouse, but it seems if I can't find it on Google it probably doesn't exist. Just like always, the key to finding info is trying as many different yet relevent search terms (i.e. only by searching "Wolfgang Mai + synchiropus" did I find his earlier article from the '90's, in french, on breeding S. splendidus). The articles above were quickly found by googling "Acartia copepod culture" - there are MANY MORE than the first couple I posted.

FWIW,

Matt

aomont · 08/16/2006, 11:10 PM

Three manuals for copepod culture

http://www.aims.gov.au/pages/researc...port-96398.pdf

http://www.aims.gov.au/pages/researc...ure-manual.pdf

http://www.lei.furg.br/atlantica/vol...ero2/ATL04.PDF (in portuguese, hehehe

)

Now I think IÂ´m starting to help !
Anderson.

Luis A M · 08/18/2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aomont

http://www.lei.furg.br/atlantica/vol...ero2/ATL04.PDF (in portuguese, hehehe)

Problema nenhum!

I know the area.We drove all Cassino beach,(300 km,said to be the worldÂ´s longest),took the ferry,the infamous Strada do Inferno and almost lost the two 4WD trucks in quicksands in Bacopari dunes!

I collected A.tonsa and Pseudodiaptomus richardi in the neighbour Uruguayan coastal lagoons.

Kathy,youÂ´re not losing much.Couples of pods were held in small vials for 5 days and eggs counted...

spawner · 08/18/2006, 02:45 PM

There are some really interesting copepod papers out and coming out in journals recently. Even starter cultures for sale now. I can't find the guys name but a guy in Brazil is working on A. tonsa with good results. If you keep on me I should be able to dig up the contact info. You can't ship or send crustaceans in and out of Brazil so its hard to get something from the outside world. Good thing is that Brazil has some really nice stuff and you don't really need our junk. I'm going to be in Brazil sometime late this year or very early next year. Its really not hard to get a cleaned up sample from wild plankton if your really persistent like Luis is.

aomont · 08/19/2006, 07:12 PM

Seemed to be a nice trip Luis ! Have never been there yet...

Kathy, Luis is right ! Everything you need to know about the text is in the abstract, altough there are some nice references there.

Spawner, it would be great to find that brazilian guy on copepod culture. IÂ´m just getting started on live food production, have found a way to get phytoplankton and L rotifers starter cultures here in Rio de Janeiro.
Copepods are really interesting and, although the species that need them are still far from what I can deall with, IÂ´d like to take a shot too.
Should I PM you ?

Anderson.

Kathy55g · 08/21/2006, 03:58 PM

Did I say something?

aomont · 08/21/2006, 04:10 PM

I think me and Luis saw your comment on the other thread.
Too many copepod info these days...
Anderson.

aomont · 08/21/2006, 04:43 PM

These are some Yahoo discussion lists:

Rotifers - http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/rotifers/
Copepods - http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/copepods/

Anderson.

spawner · 08/21/2006, 04:50 PM

Copepod list has been more or less dead for some years. Shame really.

jake levi · 08/26/2006, 11:11 AM

Plicitillis is most commonly used for salt water larvae, probably what most vendors have.

jake levi · 08/27/2006, 05:10 AM

I've been reading those links on culturing, good stuff,

I note the suggestion of rearing without light, which is something I have bothered about, so, my question , does it make an appreciable difference ? My rearing tanks are on the rack under a flour. , just to help phyto along in the tank.

jake levi · 08/29/2006, 04:28 AM

I've been going through our sponsors list,

amnot finding any sources for calanoid copepods, nor pure phtoplankton sources, other then one or two, specifically iso, nanno seems available,

I havent looked at the NGOs, cant afford them, Woods Hole etc, there is a biological supply in Rochester NY, and Carolina Biological but are there any hobbyist oriented sources ?

GreshamH · 08/29/2006, 09:54 AM

You may have to ask, rather then look at their sites

Scratch that, you have to ask at one place at least, it's not on thier site. What are you looking for, in pure phyto cultures that is?

jake levi · 08/31/2006, 12:24 PM

I was looking for Iso, probably others, I expect will wind up with 3-4. I found that algagen has most of them.

08/11/2006, 02:13 PM	#126
Luis A M Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina Posts: 1,689	Andy must be overworked,guess he didnÂ´t check this I think what he means,(and I share) is that harp.pods are nice and easy to culture,but they are mostly useless as larval food or for any other practical use for the hobbyist. I thought mandarin feeding was the only use they had,but now I see that it is not practical to culture all the pods these guys need on a daily basis.It is better to wean them to adult bs and then frozen or prepared foods.Or left in a large tank with lots of LR with enough harp.pod population to keep them well fed.In this case you donÂ´t need to culture them either. The copepods that we need are calanoids and cyclopoids that are a substantial part of oceanÂ´s plankton and of larvalÂ´s food. I wanted to have it straight,cause many people could not know the differences between benthic and planktonic copepods and think theyÂ´re all the same. Some harp.pod sellers exploit this confussion.There is a harp.pod being offered showing the picture of a calanoid pod. __________________ Luis A M Current Tank Info: I keep about 40 tanks,for breeding and larval raising.Most are 10 gallons.

08/14/2006, 11:48 AM	#127
FuEl Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Malaysia, Singapore, Australia Posts: 237	Summarising the inputs by Andy and Luis, herpacticoid copepods are actually benthic copepods which spend their time mostly on substrata. These are very easy to culture as their growth mainly depends on the amount of surface area provided. However as stated, fish larvae which are pelagic fair poorly on such copepods as their prey needs to be pelagic as well. As such, herpacticoid copepods are'nt suited for most fish larvae as most of the time they are'nt available in the water column. Calanoid copepods are mainly pelagic. As such, the feasibility of culturing these guys would depend on the water volume that could be provided. The main drawback of such cultures is the amount of space the cultures would take up. While herpacticoid copepods are grazers (on diatoms. etc), these guys take up microalgae directly from the water. As such, food supplementation is also more of a hassle. The only publication on culturing calanoid copepods I can remember is about the culture of Gladioferens imparipes. __________________ Bred blood, skunk, peppermint and camel shrimps, sugar gliders, leopard geckos, Phelsuma standingi, Goniurosaurus hainanensis.

08/14/2006, 01:44 PM	#128
Luis A M Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina Posts: 1,689	Very well summarized,Junkai! I could only add that benthic adults and nauplii harp.are negative phototropic (run away from the light and congregate in dark places) while pelagic calanoids are the opposite. There has been some limited use of harps in larviculture however; Tisbe holothuriae has pelagic phototropic nauplii,and Euterpina acutifrons has pelagic adults and nauplii.This last species has proven to be easy to culture and extremely productive,as has been shown by Hawaiian researchers.Use of them has not prevailed,however,perhaps because they are not very appealing to larval fish. There has been a bunch of papers on calanoid culturing in the last ten years (Klein Breteler,Stottrup and others).Nothing especially difficult,they thrive on phyto.Only that as productivity is lower,they need larger volumes of culture to obtain the desired amount of nauplii. __________________ Luis A M Current Tank Info: I keep about 40 tanks,for breeding and larval raising.Most are 10 gallons.

08/14/2006, 06:32 PM	#129
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	Luis and Fuel, IÂ´ll go searching the web soon, but do you have any links to these articles ? The only information I have is the "Manual on the Production and Use of Live Food for Aquaculture" and itÂ´s really good but still short on copepods. Just reading anything I can about everything... Thanks, Anderson. __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

08/14/2006, 08:41 PM	#130
spawner Reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FL EAST COAST Posts: 517	We're doing 500,000 to 1,000,000 calanoids naups a day right now. __________________ Andy "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Albert Einstein

08/14/2006, 08:53 PM	#131
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	Where spawner ? __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

08/14/2006, 09:28 PM	#132
spawner Reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FL EAST COAST Posts: 517	Florida __________________ Andy "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Albert Einstein

08/14/2006, 10:32 PM	#133
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	Spawner, Could you make a brief description of how you produce them ? If it was not to be asked, I understand, just too curious ! Anderson. __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

08/16/2006, 01:12 AM	#134
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	Going to post this in it's own thread too 'cause folks often look for the info and can't find it. Here are some of the earlier threads that name possible or actual copepod genera/species utilized as first foods for centropyge pygmy angelfish larvae: acartia clausi - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=740764 Parvocalanus species - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=476262 Clausocalanus sp. & Oithona simplex - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=403757 - and - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=203229 There are probably others, but after searching for 2 nights through all the flame angel threads, that's all I could find. Matt

08/16/2006, 11:54 AM	#135
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	Two quick articles on Copepod Culture: http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/W3732E/w3732e0t.htm http://www.jyi.org/research/re.php?id=147 Matt

08/16/2006, 01:31 PM	#136
Luis A M Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Buenos Aires,Argentina Posts: 1,689	Matt,IÂ´m impressed! Very good info including RC threads,extracts from books,papers and bibliography,everything is valuable Knowing how to search in these days is everything.I gathered the data you showed thru the years reading books and contacting authors to have copies mailed. And you only invested two nights to get it! __________________ Luis A M Current Tank Info: I keep about 40 tanks,for breeding and larval raising.Most are 10 gallons.

08/16/2006, 02:01 PM	#137
mwp Moved On Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,637	A big part too is knowing how to get the information FOUND - i.e. it's not easy to search RC, and the words contained in the post mean so much when it comes to finding things - i.e. if you search for "Flame" vs. "Flame Angel" vs. "Centropyge" or "Copepod", or any combination of those, in the breeding forums, you'll get entirely different threads. Jam packing those titles and posts with as many key words as might be relevent for the topic helps other people find the info (i.e. googling "Spawning Synchiropus" vs. "Breeding Synchiropus" will give you entirely different results, yet within both those results may be some relevent info). Anyway, I hate to pump up such a powerhouse, but it seems if I can't find it on Google it probably doesn't exist. Just like always, the key to finding info is trying as many different yet relevent search terms (i.e. only by searching "Wolfgang Mai + synchiropus" did I find his earlier article from the '90's, in french, on breeding S. splendidus). The articles above were quickly found by googling "Acartia copepod culture" - there are MANY MORE than the first couple I posted. FWIW, Matt

08/16/2006, 11:10 PM	#138
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	Three manuals for copepod culture http://www.aims.gov.au/pages/researc...port-96398.pdf http://www.aims.gov.au/pages/researc...ure-manual.pdf http://www.lei.furg.br/atlantica/vol...ero2/ATL04.PDF (in portuguese, hehehe) Now I think IÂ´m starting to help ! Anderson. __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

08/18/2006, 02:45 PM	#140
spawner Reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FL EAST COAST Posts: 517	There are some really interesting copepod papers out and coming out in journals recently. Even starter cultures for sale now. I can't find the guys name but a guy in Brazil is working on A. tonsa with good results. If you keep on me I should be able to dig up the contact info. You can't ship or send crustaceans in and out of Brazil so its hard to get something from the outside world. Good thing is that Brazil has some really nice stuff and you don't really need our junk. I'm going to be in Brazil sometime late this year or very early next year. Its really not hard to get a cleaned up sample from wild plankton if your really persistent like Luis is. __________________ Andy "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Albert Einstein

08/19/2006, 07:12 PM	#141
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	Seemed to be a nice trip Luis ! Have never been there yet... Kathy, Luis is right ! Everything you need to know about the text is in the abstract, altough there are some nice references there. Spawner, it would be great to find that brazilian guy on copepod culture. IÂ´m just getting started on live food production, have found a way to get phytoplankton and L rotifers starter cultures here in Rio de Janeiro. Copepods are really interesting and, although the species that need them are still far from what I can deall with, IÂ´d like to take a shot too. Should I PM you ? Anderson. __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

08/21/2006, 03:58 PM	#142
Kathy55g Moved On Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 3,249	Did I say something?

08/21/2006, 04:10 PM	#143
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	I think me and Luis saw your comment on the other thread. Too many copepod info these days... Anderson. __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

08/21/2006, 04:43 PM	#144
aomont Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Posts: 410	These are some Yahoo discussion lists: Rotifers - http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/rotifers/ Copepods - http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/copepods/ Anderson. __________________ "Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..."

08/21/2006, 04:50 PM	#145
spawner Reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FL EAST COAST Posts: 517	Copepod list has been more or less dead for some years. Shame really. __________________ Andy "If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Albert Einstein

08/26/2006, 11:11 AM	#146
jake levi Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Central Michigan Posts: 543	Plicitillis is most commonly used for salt water larvae, probably what most vendors have. __________________ Jake We are all in this together Current Tank Info: reef tanks oriented towards pairs of reef fish

08/27/2006, 05:10 AM	#147
jake levi Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Central Michigan Posts: 543	I've been reading those links on culturing, good stuff, I note the suggestion of rearing without light, which is something I have bothered about, so, my question , does it make an appreciable difference ? My rearing tanks are on the rack under a flour. , just to help phyto along in the tank. __________________ Jake We are all in this together Current Tank Info: reef tanks oriented towards pairs of reef fish

08/29/2006, 04:28 AM	#148
jake levi Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Central Michigan Posts: 543	I've been going through our sponsors list, amnot finding any sources for calanoid copepods, nor pure phtoplankton sources, other then one or two, specifically iso, nanno seems available, I havent looked at the NGOs, cant afford them, Woods Hole etc, there is a biological supply in Rochester NY, and Carolina Biological but are there any hobbyist oriented sources ? __________________ Jake We are all in this together Current Tank Info: reef tanks oriented towards pairs of reef fish

08/29/2006, 09:54 AM	#149
GreshamH Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Posts: 9,474	You may have to ask, rather then look at their sites Scratch that, you have to ask at one place at least, it's not on thier site. What are you looking for, in pure phyto cultures that is? __________________ Gresham _______________________________ Feeding your reef...one polyp at a time

08/31/2006, 12:24 PM	#150
jake levi Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Central Michigan Posts: 543	I was looking for Iso, probably others, I expect will wind up with 3-4. I found that algagen has most of them. __________________ Jake We are all in this together Current Tank Info: reef tanks oriented towards pairs of reef fish