more tang arguments

[Angel*Fish]

I think the end all- since there is no data involved here- only emotion - would be there needs to be a poll of longevity of tangs and their respective tank size. I am sorry if lifespan doesn`t denote health or happiness- but its all the reliable data we can get-without necropsies or psychotherapy. I love big tank sizes- used to keep neon tetras in a 180-we should do the best we can-but arbitrary "rules" do nothing but cause division. "Wheres the beef"!

In my opinion practically everything you said in this post is wrong. it ignores the info already out there.

[mthomp]

Originally Posted by Beaun

Second, the mortality rate is so high because people are putting fish in unsuitable situations. Putting a tang in an appropriate sized tank ensures that it will live longer and another wont be purchased to replace it.

this is false. there are many many many reasons for fish loss. the reasons you posted is probably lowest reasons why. how many fish you think die in transport for example? 1 out of 10 maybe?

[b0bab0ey]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

I think it's a good idea we talk---talk!---out some of these issues, because a lot of info floating around the hobby is on the same level as the cat-breeders who thought bearing a litter of alley cats would 'ruin' a pedigreed cat forever and make all her future offspring 'tainted' with alley-cat.
So I'm willing to be patient with this thread in the hopes that even the absolutely off-the-wall notions can get an airing, and perhaps make some new hobbyists think more deeply on their plans, their tanks, their proposed fishes.
What would I like to see happen? I'd like to see people plan the tank they actually have, have success with it, and just as we all do, limit the fish we keep to those appropriate to the tank we can afford. I keep gobies. I'd love to have some damsels, but I won't put them, or tangs, into a 54 gallon. Period.

Just curious... why won't you put damsels in your tank? Too aggressive? I have a 58g, and I'm thinking of starting out with a few chromis once it's cycled.

[mthomp]

Originally Posted by Angel*Fish

In my opinion practically everything you said in this post is wrong.

according to your sig, your tank is seriously crowded. you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by mthomp

according to your sig, your tank is seriously crowded. you should be ashamed of yourself.

According to your post, you can't read. There's a 100 g tank and 2 30g's. All those particular species that I chose are very small.

[mthomp]

Originally Posted by Angel*Fish

According to your post, you can't read. There's a 100 g tank and 2 30g's. All those fish are very small, look them up.

says refugiums, i assumed they were being used as such. and i know the saize of every single fish you have listed and its min tank requirments. if you have all those in your 100 gal its cramped since you also mention you have more then 1 of each.

[Sk8r]

Ah, chromis (we step aside to talk offtopic only slightly) and clowns are both damsels, and I do have one chromis ---my tank is a wedge shape, and one is about all I dare, because they do pick at each other. If you have a long tank, you might get away with 3. Odd numbers seem to work best. The chromises and smallest clowns are the smallest of damsels, and they're so often considered apart from the rest I forget they are, yes, damsels. The rest tend to get big---way big---and need about a 100 g tank or larger to thrive and move properly. At that size, they're a wonderful fish, and it's a crying shame people get scared off having them (and for some reason lured into having tangs for color!) when they are every color and pattern in the rainbow, cheap, (except the Garabaldi!) and incredibly hardy. They are movers, but fairly short range: they like to dive over and around rock and they thrive and are a delight in a 100g and up, but they just get cranky and desperate in a too-small tank, hence their awful rep---if you were commonly used 'to cycle a tank' you'd be in a bad mood too!)

But yes---chromis would be great in a 58. 3 would be a good number if you're a long, one, maybe 2 if yours is a wedge like my tank.


Now back to your regularly scheduled tang thread.

[Ohiomom]

Originally Posted by mthomp

thats not poor reefkeeping, thats being overly dramatic. I have 3 tangs in my 90 for example, none get over 9 inchs in the wild, Ill bet they dont get over 6 in my system. and they will be fine.

pot calling the kettle in that case..many of us would think you are way overstocked..

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by mthomp

says refugiums, i assumed they were being used as such. and i know the saize of every single fish you have listed and its min tank requirments. if you have all those in your 100 gal its cramped since you also mention you have more then 1 of each.

How could you possibly know which shrimp gobies (high fin), damsels (azure) or clowns(oscellaris) I have? The red sea mimic blennies are tiny fish. Not much bigger than the yellow clown gobies. Except for the angels, it's mostly nano fish. You're awfully eager to put me down with very little info.

How crowded does this look to you?


And refugium means a lot of different things.

[Frogmanx82]

Originally Posted by Beaun

First, it's not about criticizing anyone else, it is about putting out good, sound advice to people looking at buying tangs.

Second, the mortality rate is so high because people are putting fish in unsuitable situations. Putting a tang in an appropriate sized tank ensures that it will live longer and another wont be purchased to replace it.

Honestly, your entire point seems like a convenient way to move away from the topic at hand. These tank sizes are not just pulled out of a hat, they are thoughtfully considered by top tier hobbyists, aquarists and professionals; people who have way more experience and knowledge then most do.

I would bet inappropriate tank mates and water quality have more to do with mortality rates than tank size. My whole point is to keep the advice as advice and not criticism because it is exactly about criticizing others. Tangs doing backflips are someones dream, maybe someone else's nightmare.

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

Tangs doing backflips are someones dream, maybe someone else's nightmare.

They are what they are, it's not dependent on perspective. I personally don't know enough to give an opinion.

[Sk8r]

Beautiful tank, Marie.

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Beautiful tank, Marie.

Thank you. It was my treasure. I lost everything to Hurricane Ike except the Herald's angel and the Apagons which I gave away. It's running fallow with a powerhead and a heater and top offs. All this posting really makes me want to start it back up. The crazy thing is I still hear pistol shrimp clicking.

[Sk8r]

some species can survive a nuclear strike.

[Beaun]

Originally Posted by mthomp

this is false. there are many many many reasons for fish loss. the reasons you posted is probably lowest reasons why. how many fish you think die in transport for example? 1 out of 10 maybe?

Of course many more die in transport, I was referring to once they make it to the store and get sold. There is an entire other thread to be written discussing/dealing with transportation and collection methods, i.e. short supply chain/long supply chain, or a 5 gallon bucket filled with damsels for a few hours on the deck of a boat...

[LifeAquatic]

= p

[Minuteman]

Originally Posted by LifeAquatic

= p

That's pretty funny. Looks almost like three of the tangs I have in my 22g tank.

[Misled]

Originally Posted by Angel*Fish

All this posting really makes me want to start it back up.

Please do. I'd love to see what you do this time. I'll send you a leather if you want one.

[Toddrtrex]

Originally Posted by mthomp

there is not a single expert on this thread. and if there is please show your credentials as such.

Really now -- what in your astute opinion would qualify a person as an expert? Would someone being in this hobby longer then you've been alive count?



Secondly, your attitude is getting really abrasive, suggest that you tone it done a bit. And don't bother sending me another PM telling me "dont threaten me" I had the old one you sent me.

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by Misled

Please do. I'd love to see what you do this time. I'll send you a leather if you want one.

Thanks!! I just realized I fragged that gorgonian so many times for frag trades, I bet I can find someone at the reef club who can frag me back now.

[Stuart60611]

I just posted the below in the Responsible Reefkeeping forum in a thread started on the same topic. I thought it important to post here since I have spent the last several weeks engaging in a very similar discussion and because I think it points out the flaws in the positions many have taken here who oppose minimum tank sizes for tangs.

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

I have been engaging in a protracted discussion of a very related issue in another thread in this forum and thus have recently put quite a bit of thought into such matters.

See, http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1932521&page=8

There are those who contend that discussions of appropriate tank size make no sense because this is a purely subjective issue incapeable of objective parameters based on substantial experience and reasonable consensus. Such folks argue that we can never replicate the open conditions of nature and therefore placing fish in a home aquarium is always inappropriately small and therefore not subject to minimum size requirements. These people also assert that everyone will never ever agree as to what size system is appropriate for a given species, and there will always be substantial differences of opinion, thereby making such determinations useless.

These postions are unjustified. As I often like to say, you may not get all people to agree with what is the appropriate size tank for a given species, but you can usually get virtually all of them to agree with what clearly is not. Determining what is an appropriate tank size for a species is not difficult or beyond determination. It has nothing to do with fish "happyness", "morality", nor how closely the system replicates natural conditions. It is has to all to with a singular result of inappropriate tank size --fish stress. A fish who is very stressed will engage in varying degrees (depending on the species) of abnormal behavior and/or suffer negative physical effects which can manefest themselves in a number of ways, including, without limitation, aggression, excessive hiding, excessive pacing, greatly impaired immune response and susceptability to disease, reduced feeding, faded color, and stunted size. Based on the reports from many hobbyists who have kept certain fish for years, we are able to determine which tank sizes are apprppriately sized for a given species, which is very simply those sized tanks which do not cause severe stress and these manefested symptoms.

Different groups of fish tolerate such stress to varying degrees. For example, as the link to the below article explains, large angels cannot tolerate this stress well and often succumb to disease when forced to endure it. The same can be largely said of tangs based on everything that I have read, although not to perhaps as severe of a degree. Physically, tangs have a real disadvantage which may explain, in part, why they are so susceptable to disease and parasites. Tangs have a very thin to non-existent slime coat. Slime coats are very important in assisting fish to resist parasites and disease. Severe stress combined with the lack of protection from a slime coat is a recipe for tangs becoming sick.

In summary, a tank is too small for a given species if it causes severe stress which manefests itself in one of the ways described above. Some fish, like triggers and groupers, can tolerate such stress better than others; while large angels and tangs often succumb to disease when exposed to such stress. Therefore, you cannot severely undersize the system or overcrowd it when keeping these fish. At bare minimum. most fish also probably live greatly shortened life expectancies when forced to live with such stress just as people do when forced to live in difficult environmental conditions. Read the below article which willl help you understand why you cannot keep certakin fish in too small of a system. Undersizing a tank for a given species is not a moral issue. It is a health issue.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/fish

[Angel*Fish]

Well said Stuart And thanks. If it were up to me, I'd add that to the Tank Sizes for Tangs sticky.

[pavelow360]

Originally Posted by RedM3

The aquarium industry doesn't "MAKE" tangs. They are living creatures that reproduce naturally and give berth to young fish. The aquarium industry doesn't even frequently breed most species of tangs, so the majority of them are simply caught in the wild - the furthest thing from being "made" to appeal to people with smaller tanks.

What people on here are concerned about is two things, mainly:
1. Avoiding the equivalent of having a puppy crated 24 hours / day and
2. Having tons of people keep tangs in tanks that are far to small to sustain them, and kill them off, then replacing them, continuously going through this cycle. This depletes the populations of tangs found in the wild and makes it more difficult and expensive for responsible keepers to find specimens.

the person meant to say tiny tanks

[TampaReefer79]

Originally Posted by pavelow360

the person meant to say tiny tanks

No, no they didn't.

[albano]

Originally Posted by mthomp

there is not a single expert on this thread. and if there is please show your credentials as such.

Unfortunately, anyone who has keep a damsel alive for a week, thinks that they are an expert....

The real experts don't have to advertise it, or prove it...

I thank them for all their help...
... the amount of 'expertise' on this forum is immeasurable!