Use of Lasers in Controlling Pest Algae and Corals

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by NatureNerd

Getting back on topic.

The idea of using the laser on rocks pulled from the tank, kind of defeats the whole purpose. If you can pull the rock out, a simple butane lighter will do the job quicker, more effectively, and safer.

I agree that there are many other options if you can completely remove the rock containing the pests form the aquarium but... I believe the laser is far more effective than a cigarette lighter.

Over the years, I've read numerous stories of aquarists removing rocks and trying all sorts of methods (including using a propane torch) in an attempt to kill Aiptasia with poor results....it often came back.

A laser has the advantage of being able to focus incredible amounts of energy into a specific point. This is perfect for targeting Aiptasia that usually withdraw into deep crevices or pores in the rock that are often safe from other forms of attack (even a blow torch.)

[CalmSeasQuest]

The OD4 acrylic (the most expensive square foot of .140" thick plastic I've ever purchased) should arrive next week so I can start working on the endpoint shield. While I'm looking forward to testing the underwater host, I'm finding extremely easy to work through the glass.

Today I cleared a large patch of Xenia that had grown from the side glass (where I allow it and GSP to exist) onto adjacent rock work. It took a couple of sessions (due to the 60 second duty cycle of my laser) to eliminate it. I've found it sometimes takes a brief additional lasing in a few days should any survive. Even with that it's extremely effective taking less than 10 minutes in total.

The testing on Valonia was also effective. I found that a few seconds lasing the entire bubble resulted in 100% kill rates. The bubble fades and dissolves over the following few days.

Bryopsis - I only had a small amount on a frag plug to work with, but although it seems tougher, also withers and dies. It takes a bit more lasing time, but it seems to have been effective as after a couple of weeks it has yet to return.

Although much of the discussion has "focused" on eradicating Aiptasia - I'm finding it incredible to be able to easily control Xenia and GSP. As many that have introduced them into their tank have found, it's very easy for both to get out of control. Lasers provide a fast and effective way to manage both.

[JasonD]

Ok I will chime in. Ordered my 1400mW blue laser from survival laser I was really impressed with the quality of the instrument. He even wrote on it the actual tested power of the instrument in my case it read 1435mW. I also got a pair of goggles with it.

Next I got all my pets out of the room and set my digital timer for one minute since the laser has a one minute on one minute off duty cycle.

I practiced on a piece of Valonia to see what the effects are and practice my focusing of the beam. I didn't bother turning off the pumps in the tank too lazy. As soon as I shone the beam in the tank all the fish hid behind the rocks they are definately not attracted to the beam. Focusing on the Valonia I could hear a sizzling sound but nothing dramatic could be observed I did this for four cycles, the skin looks a little shriveled but it will be interesting to see how it develops in the future.

But the medium sized aptasia was different as soon as I hit it with the beam it started melting-I felt like Dorthy in the Wizard of Oz after she through water on the Icked Witch-the reaction was immediate and violent as the Aptasia withdrew into its hole. Did I kill it I don't know but I certainly did omething to it. If it comes back I have plenty more for it.

It takes some practice learning to hold the beam still and learning to focus it. But after using it one time I would say it is a powerful tool for the advanced aquarist who is willing to follow common sense safety practices. I did not notice any heating of the aquarium glass touching it right After I lased through it.

Also at least for the aptasia I don't think turning off the pumps is necessary when dealing with high power lasers > 1000 mW.

Be safe,have fun, and always wear eye protection.

[RobbyG]

This thread Interesting and informative and down right crazy!
I am glad I am not the OP as it's a sure bet that someone will eventually blind themselves or someone else while doing this and while it won't be anyone's fault but theirs I just would not want to be a link in the chain of events.

I think Randy stated it best on page one but here we are several pages later and by now a few dozen Lasers are probably operational. Sorry to be a downer but I have seen so many things like this go wrong, one that jumps to my mind was a friend giving someone else some "great" advice about unclogging a stubborn pipe by using Hydrochloric Acid, and yes the pipe blew back splashing the Acid on the guys face. Safety lectures etc only work for some people, many people either start out unsafe or become so accustomed to it working out that they eventually get Lax, doing stuff like not locking those room doors or forgetting to lock the Laser away while they go get a tool from their tool case.

[Wrench]

I have several pairs of sunglasses that I keep nearby for people to wear. They're polarized which should stop most of the bad stuff from getting through.

[Sisterlimonpot]

Here's a dumb question. And keep in mind although this is very interesting, I don't have nor am I planning on purchasing a laser, but as far as the eye protection, do they have to be specially made for that particular spectrum of laser or can any pair of polarized glasses work? I ask because I have a few pair of Oakley that have polarized lenses. will they protect from these lasers?

[Wrench]

NO! My post was made in jest. The safety goggles you wear must match the wavelength of the laser you're using.

[RobbyG]

Originally Posted by Wrench

NO! My post was made in jest. The safety goggles you wear must match the wavelength of the laser you're using.

Thanks for proving the point
Your joke which seemed obvious to you and me; might seem like serious info to others. That pretty much reflects the general lack of knowledge on this subject and just imagine how many of those people are busy burning stuff with their new toy.

[gp2]

I have to put my .02 in. DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!! I use lasers on a daily basis (on people in a medical setting) To say that they must be respected is one of the most ridiculous understatements I have ever heard.

Retinal destruction is immediate, permanent and complete. My safety glasses cost over $4oo each. The wavelengths they protect against are etched into their lenses. I have 7 different lasers with each one requiring a different set of eyeware protection. I seriously doubt a $50 set of glasses made in China with who knows what quality control will be sufficient. You will only know that answer if you are blinded.

Lasers are absorbed by different things. Some by water, some by tissue, etc... If a laser hits a reflective surface it will move around the room in unpredictable ways. That is unless it is absorbed by you or someone elses tissue... ALL reflective surfaces MUST be removed from the room where lasers are being used. Burnished type metals are ok, but any metal that is reflective needs to be removed. An aquarium surface? I have no idea but would seem very risky. If my office is inspected and a hand mirror is laying out in a room where a laser is the fine is about $10,000.

The risk/benefit analysis regarding this is bizarre. Your family gets home early and your kids walk in, Woops! A beam reflects out a window through your neighbors window, OOps sorry bout that.

As a disclaimer I only scanned the thread, but the demo at the reef club with the sunglasses is hilarious. God loves drunks and fools, and if he continues to do that someone will be blinded. sunglasses are not protective for lasers. I am by no means an expert on laser physics but I am responsible for peoples safety around them.

[bundybear1981]

This is an interesting topic, thou in Australia they have banned most lasers / laser pointers from peoples (overall) stupidity and lack of responsibility with things this dangerous. If you try to import them customs will confiscate them (we have a restriction on a maximum of 1mW unless you have an exemption licence)

Thou it will be intersting to see how this does (or doesnt) work as a long term method.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Thanks for posting GP2 - A few thoughts...

• I believe this thread, through the standards recommendations has addressed the concerns you raised.
  
  
• I think it's safe to say that the lasers used in a medical setting are significantly different and much higher power than the <1800mW lasers being used in aquaria.
  
  
• I think it's unfair to judge the quality of the eye protection being worn based soley on comparison to the cost of medical equipment. The Eagle Pair glasses I use (and recommend) are also etched with the designed spectrum and are OD4+ rated. I would wager the eye protection used in a medical setting to be little better as additional increases in OD result in less visible light making it harder to see whatever (whomever) you're working on.
  
  
• I think a 10X margin for an item to be used and insured in a medical setting is probably typical.

Most importantly, we agree that any public demonstration of a laser (especially those including reflective surfaces such as aquariums) that fail to take the recommended safety steps, including requiring appropriate eye protection for everyone within range of the laser is beyond absurd.

[jrpark22000]

Originally Posted by jrpark22000

I have ordered an additional set of safety glasses. OD7 rated for the appropriate wavelength I am using. With the large amount of reflection produced when shooting through glass I though it to be a worth wild investment.

I do have a concern that these will block too much light and make the laser dot hard to see. With my OD5 glasses my 1.4W dot still shows quite bright. I think I will still be able to see 1% of an OD5 dot. I’ll post back results after I receive the glasses.

Safety glass ratings for reference

My second set of glasses finally arrived.

https://www.oemlasersystems.com/prod...argon-blue-ktp

They are great. The laser endpoint is still bright. I can see the beam as it passes throug the glass. I can not see the beam pass through the water as I could with the eagle eye glasses, which came with the kit.

Overall the fit and finish is great and they provide better protection.

[gp2]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Thanks for posting GP2 - A few thoughts...

• I believe this thread, through the standards recommendations has addressed the concerns you raised.
  
  
• I think it's safe to say that the lasers used in a medical setting are significantly different and much higher power than the <1800mW lasers being used in aquaria.
  
  
• I think it's unfair to judge the quality of the eye protection being worn based soley on comparison to the cost of medical equipment. The Eagle Pair glasses I use (and recommend) are also etched with the designed spectrum and are OD4+ rated. I would wager the eye protection used in a medical setting to be little better as additional increases in OD result in less visible light making it harder to see whatever (whomever) you're working on.
  
  
• I think a 10X margin for an item to be used and insured in a medical setting is probably typical.

Most importantly, we agree that any public demonstration of a laser (especially those including reflective surfaces such as aquariums) that fail to take the recommended safety steps, including requiring appropriate eye protection for everyone within range of the laser is beyond absurd.

Tom for guys like you this is probably fine. Obsessive about the safety factors, and big into research. Also for the engineer types. My experience in working with many very dangerous technologies (laser is one of the safer things I do) is that very few people take the necessary safety precautions. Even when threatened with loss of job or significant fines the vast majority of people do not respect the dangers inherent with these activities. I work in the700-1700 nm range with a range of 3-25 J/cm2 depending on the application.

I stand by the fact that I would be very wary trusting the safety glasses. I would research the manufacturing firm extensively. Any lapse in quality control could be obviously devastating.

I also feel that any "family guy" probably has no business messing with this for aptasias etc... risk/benefit analysis is just not there. I would view this as a loaded gun laying around with a very small benefit. Aptaisers seem much safer with almost no risk. I would also caution anyone that is going to do this to shield all windows to prevent hitting someone outside.

I cannot tell you the number of times I have pulsed a laser inadvertently. I have nailed my hand on multiple occasions. Everyone I know that does this kind of work has done this also. It is really hard to prevent these sort of human errors. We all stick ourselves with bloody needles also, although this is fairly rare it happens to almost all of us. Given that, mistakes will happen to even the most cautious. Is it really worth it to kill some aptasias? I would be very careful with the mainstreaming of this in any way. The absurd demo is a wonderful example of the myriad unforeseen consequences that will occur. Working around flammable or volatile liquids or fumes would be a fun way to experience disability from this technology also. I have not perused my test kits/additives to see if any are flammable or alcohol based. Just another of the endless possibilities for mayhem.

[philosophile]

Anyone try lasing hair algae yet?

[IBASSFSH]

Very cool thread. Love the videos, and the fact you have stressed the importance of PPE while using the laser. Looks to be very effective.

[Landsailor]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

[*]I think it's safe to say that the lasers used in a medical setting are significantly different and much higher power than the <1800mW lasers being used in aquaria.

[*]I think it's unfair to judge the quality of the eye protection being worn based soley on comparison to the cost of medical equipment. The Eagle Pair glasses I use (and recommend) are also etched with the designed spectrum and are OD4+ rated. I would wager the eye protection used in a medical setting to be little better as additional increases in OD result in less visible light making it harder to see whatever (whomever) you're working on.

Hi,

This is a cumulative response to things that caught my eye in this thread. I don't have time to go through and respond to every response individually. Please don't take anything as a personal attack. It's not meant that way.

As a former Laser Safety Officer responsible for maintaining the system and the paperwork necessary for the CDRH Variance for one of the most complex laser shows of the last century, this thread causes me to have all sorts of concerns. I am a certified Field Service Technician for Coherent Laser Group for the Innova 70, 100, and 300 series of continuous wave ionized gas lasers. (Fancy words for "I can buy a $50,000 watercooled laser tube that runs off of 600VDC and install it for you".) I don't claim to know everything about lasers and their myriad uses, but I did earn my living for six years with them.

Laser Power
The power of medical lasers compared to these high powered, extremely dangerous toys is a moot point. Once you boil the liquid in your retina and damage the cells, you're not getting them back.

Comparing a "<1800mW laser" to a medical laser is like comparing a .22 to a .30-06. You're just as dead.

They "burn" by hitting something that absorbs those frequencies of light and cannot dissipate the energy. When I got my finger in the dialed back (<1W) argon beam, it transferred the energy of the beam into the plasma of my blood. It would have quickly boiled if not for my pain reflex. The skin was undamaged.

The only way you can be killed by a laser is by electrocution or having the power supply fall on you. They can put a world of hurt on you in numerous other ways, though.

Safety Glasses
Eagle Pair glasses are made in China. There is no way you can hold the company that sells them accountable for a failure, therefore you cannot guarantee your safety with them. Do you know their testing and certification procedures? Do you know their batch lot traceability? You do not, therefore, there is no way on earth I would entrust my family's eyesight to them, especially since I know what real ones cost. (As a stagehand who has rigged hundreds of tons of gear above the unsuspecting public's heads, I've seen entire reels of expensive steel cable marked "Made in Korea - DO NOT USE!" because of the lack of traceability. I've taken several courses in safety and liability from the person who literally wrote the book on stage rigging.)

Even with them, there is a very good reason why the laser jocks always used the same eye to focus the table.

"I use my left eye so I always have one good one."

Demonstrations at a Store or Club
The store owner who allowed a demonstration with people wearing sunglasses is completely ignorant (not meant as an insult) of the potential liability he endorsed by allowing that to happen. Had I seen that, I would have been "Mr. Safety Jackass" and demanded that it stop. That was so incredibly dangerous that words can't describe how I feel about it. Suffice it to say that the person who lost their sight would be very rich right now and the store owner and "laser expert dude" would have a criminal record in addition to the civil penalties.

If anyone ever says "These sunglasses are OK!", that person is a danger to himself and those around him. Put a stop to it however you can.

Fiber Optic Feed
That is impossible with these crappy, unstable lasers. Fiber runs require an optics table and ultra precise alignment. You have to bounce the beam into the feed with a front surface mirror aligned to within ten thousandths of an ince. Also, the light emitted from a fiber is uncollimated (just a giant wash of light), so you would need a collimating lens assembly that wouldn't mind being immersed in saltwater. Good luck finding that.

PVC Pipe
Ask any owner of an Epilog laser cutting system if they will cut PVC. They will tell you "No, because the chlorine gas released when it's cut with a laser will destroy my equipment." I don't know if this universally applies to every wavelength of laser, but I would advise extreme caution with PVC around anything this powerful if you cannot find a better material.

Treat it like it's a firearm
Best advice in this thread. I keep my cheap, high power Chinese astronomy laser under double lock and key.

PPE
I would recommend long sleeved, natural fiber, flame resistant clothing. Cotton burns, nylon melts. Heck, buy a cheap pair of military surplus tank crew member coveralls from eBay. The ones I use when shooting fireworks cost $20 shipped and were made from 100% aramid fibers.

Remove all rings, watches, jewelry, etc.

Judge for yourself if the benefit is worth the risk
Did you double check that you're alone in the house? Do you know what you're doing?

If you're doing this for the "kewl lasers!" factor or showing off in any way, you're not in the proper frame of mind.

Lastly, Pay attention to what you're doing. If you don't know exactly what you're doing, don't do it!

Never, under any circumstances do anything that will result in you saying the following:

"My son can't see out of his right eye, but at least I got rid of that aptasia on a rock."

Mr. Glerum (the guy who wrote the book on stage rigging) always told us "I have investigated many accidents and found many well intentioned people who made decisions beyond their qualifications and resulted in people being injured or killed. The one thing that no amount of lawyers can buy you is a good night's sleep."

If you're not sure about something, just stop. Don't rush it. You can't blink fast enough to save yourself.


Personally, I would never attempt this and I sure wouldn't want my name associated with the dissemination of this knowledge on the web, but that's just all of my training talking.

Anyway, I hope this helps in some way. I'm not an "afraid to go outside" guy. Heck, I pay good money to go to the middle of the desert and manufacture my own fireworks a few times a year, however I understand the risks involved and am well trained in the consequences.

Feel free to add any of the above to your info sheet, just reword it so that I'm not associated with it.

Jason

[JasonD]

Originally Posted by philosophile

Anyone try lasing hair algae yet?

Yes I lazed a bubble algae for about three minutes and it boiled everything in it. Worked well it doesn't seem to work as effectively on hair algae though

[Landsailor]

Hair algae will be difficult because of its size and shape. The energy can more easily be sinked somewhere else since what little mass is there, is waving back and forth in an incredibly good heat transfer medium (water).

[Phsycodelic81]

Where did you buy your laser kit?

[Ron Reefman]

There are a number of websites selling lasers. I only know of one that has had some 'issues' and the was WickedLaser. I got mine used from a friend and he also said there is a laser forum where people also sell them (just like we sell equipment , corals and fish here on RC). If the website links and forum link aren't in this thread, they are in the similar thread over in the Reef Discussion Forum.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by Phsycodelic81

Where did you buy your laser kit?

A word of caution to those new to this topic...

HIGH POWER LASERS ARE DANGEROUS.

PLEASE take the time to read the entire thread with special emphasis on the risks and safety suggestions. Under no circumstance should you fire a laser without the proper eye protection for everyone within range of the laser (many hundreds of yards ~ miles depending on power and focus.)

I purchased my laser, along with 2 pairs of Eagle Eye safety glasses through Survival Laser.com The locking Pelican case was purchased through Amazon.

There are multiple retailers selling either the components to build, or completed lasers (completed lasers tend to be from offshore sellers, likely due to FDA restrictions.) The best reference source I've found is Laser Pointer Forums. It's similar to RC, but focuses on lasers (including reviews and sales.)

I believe (based on the limited amount of testing I've done) that for this use - higher power is better. I've noted that others using ~1W lasers have difficulty eliminating lighter colored or translucent pests such as Xenia whereas my 1.8W with the G-1 lens is very effective. I also believe that 445nm is not the optimum wavelength for this use. Everything I've read suggests that 405nm would be more effective at lower power settings. I'm waiting on delivery of a waterproof 1.2W 445nm (purchased through www.lazerer.com) to test the underwater option. I'm also continuing to work on acquiring a waterproof host and components for a >1.5W 405nm build.

IMO, protecting the livestock is a one of the greatest challenges in the responsible use of lasers in aquaria. It's a relatively simple matter to protect the user and observers by REQUIRING the wearing of appropriate rated eye protection and controlling the environment where the laser is being used. No such simple option exists for the tank's inhabitants. Options include underwater lasing (allowing the host to be placed very close to the target) and underwater shielding. Time (and more testing) will tell which methods are best.

Interestingly, the use of lasers in aquaria (featuring this thread) was the 2nd most popular subject on Advanced Aquarists in December

December 2011's Most Popular Posts — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

Interestingly, the use of lasers in aquaria (featuring this thread) was the 2nd most popular subject on Advanced Aquarists in December

December 2011's Most Popular Posts — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Tom, very cool about this being the 2nd most popular thread at Asvanced Aquarists in December.

That's the latest on your submersible laser?

[mobyreef]

I have read this entire thread. I want to thank to everyone for ALL of the information! I had a friend tell me of lasing aptaisas at a new years party and was thrilled to learn of what seemed like a simple/easy way to deal with my aptasia problems. I did not go out right away and buy a laser because I wanted to educate myself on the subject first. Thats why I came to RC to find this thread through a search for Blue Laser. I am so glad that the MOD didn't close this thread! Otherwise, I would NOT have been able to learn of some of the precautions to take, or, of some of the ideas to deal with potential reflections. I have had reef aquariums for over 20 years. I am one whom has tried shutting down the aquarium for a week while on vacation to return to a smelly dead tank and no aptasias (about 3 years ago). But even with quarantine methods in place they returned. Since then, I have tried Joes Juice, Aptaisia X, Copperband Butterfly, Peppermint Shrimp, and Berghias (which are very expensive) on two separate occasions! I do remove rocks when its practical and just rinse the aptasia off with hot running water. They'll release and go down the drain. I've also left rocks in a bucket of fresh RO water for a couple of days till they die-off. I have large rock structures and coral growing to them that will just be too destructive to remove. Now that I have learned from this thread, I will implement the safe precautions I have read about. I didn't think of it before so I will lock my laser and store it in a pelican type case as suggested. And, I know this sounds dramatic but,... If I die suddenly (car accident?) and someone finds the case, I also will laminate a note to the outside of the case with warning labels about the dangerous contents within because it seems so innocuous. I think that that is part of the problem here as well. Lasers seem cool and innocuous that people don't treat them with the same respect as a weapon, or even something dangerous. After reading the whole thread I also feel we are getting to the point of beating a dead horse around the safety issues and getting off of the subject for the practical results of using them. It has been my experience from using Joes Juice or AptasiaX that when aptasias are attacked with it they send off planulara (-sp?) and I ended up having many more aptasias than when I started using JJ or ApX. I am wondering if the laser would kill the planulara released when the aptasia feel attacked? Hopefully, the laser would heat and kill any released planuaria.

BTW: NEW READERS TO THIS TREAD, READ THE ENTIRE THREAD

Thanks for all whom have posted their experiences on the subject!

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

Tom, very cool about this being the 2nd most popular thread at Asvanced Aquarists in December.

That's the latest on your submersible laser?

Thanks Ron I'm still waiting on the waterproof 445nm. Lazerer has shipped, but they indicate 10-14 days from Hong Kong. While I'm excited to try the underwater option - I am very impressed and pleased with the through-glass results. Were it not for this device, my DT would be largely over-run with Xenia.

Thus far, Xenia seems to be the most challenging to manage, often taking multiple sessions to eradicate. Whereas Aiptasia are very easy. Assuming you have a clear shot at the point of attachment, they are gone in a single session.

I'm also looking forward to obtaining a 405nm. I think it will end up being the most efficient once higher power hosts are available.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by mobyreef

I have read this entire thread. I want to thank to everyone for ALL of the information! I had a friend tell me of lasing aptaisas at a new years party and was thrilled to learn of what seemed like a simple/easy way to deal with my aptasia problems. I did not go out right away and buy a laser because I wanted to educate myself on the subject first. Thats why I came to RC to find this thread through a search for Blue Laser. I am so glad that the MOD didn't close this thread! Otherwise, I would NOT have been able to learn of some of the precautions to take, or, of some of the ideas to deal with potential reflections.... Now that I have learned from this thread, I will implement the safe precautions I have read about. I didn't think of it before so I will lock my laser and store it in a pelican type case as suggested. And, I know this sounds dramatic but,... If I die suddenly (car accident?) and someone finds the case, I also will laminate a note to the outside of the case with warning labels about the dangerous contents within because it seems so innocuous. I think that that is part of the problem here as well. Lasers seem cool and innocuous that people don't treat them with the same respect as a weapon, or even something dangerous. After reading the whole thread I also feel we are getting to the point of beating a dead horse around the safety issues and getting off of the subject for the practical results of using them. It has been my experience from using Joes Juice or AptasiaX that when aptasias are attacked with it they send off planulara (-sp?) and I ended up having many more aptasias than when I started using JJ or ApX. I am wondering if the laser would kill the planulara released when the aptasia feel attacked? Hopefully, the laser would heat and kill any released planuaria.

BTW: NEW READERS TO THIS TREAD THE ENTIRE THREAD

Thanks for all whom have posted their experiences on the subject!

Thanks very much mobyreef

Regarding Aiptasia Planula - I was fortunate that I had very few Aiptasia in my tanks. Those that I had were quickly eradicated with the laser. It's been about a month, and I've seen no signs of any returning. I theorize that starting the laser on the mouth of the Aiptasia "catches" any Planula released and destroys them. Then, as the Aiptasia shrinks, walk the laser down the stalk and focus on the base. I beleive the localized intense heat will kill any remaining Planula. While this is just an assumptive observation on on my part, it seems to work.

Thus far it has been 100% effective, taking only 5~10 seconds per polyp with an 1800mW laser.