Bubble Master Skimmers more info wanted??? - Page 6

africangrey · 10/13/2006, 09:53 AM

I have a heavily stocked SPS but only 3 fish in my 120 gal. , do you think I should get the 250 or 500. I have taught to oversize on skimmer like I usually do with my Big Mac meal.

Beenalongtime79 · 10/13/2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roland Jacques
good point John i do partaialy agree with the fisrt part on the closed loop, the venturi atmosphere pressure does not seem to me to have equal effect as the water level pressure once the water is in motion. but i have never tested that ( one more thing for me to test) thanks a bunch

longer contact time can be viewed the same as recircing water in the sump Right? i no that so its kind of funny to think of it like that. the longer time between going back in the skimmer and all. but forget this part for a minite.

Wwhat do you think about this John?

My thoughts are contact time vs hits is the questions.

If a 5 gallon skimmer (Total skimmer volume) pulling 20 scfh air with a flow of 100 gallon a hour thruput.

vs

a 5 gallon skimmer pulling 100 scfh air at 500 gallon per hour thruput.

which one has more contact time with waste ( hits) ????

and then my question is. how slow do we want to go? (sounds like a song) or how much contact time is enough?

Hey Roland,

The thing is that it really depends on your bioload at a certain point. I mean Peter Escobal claims that it takes up to 5-7 minutes to grab some proteins and this is independent of the number or volume of bubbles. It is simply time dependent, meaning that you have to have time to grab these proteins. I must also note that this is not entirely true, because if you were only producing 1 SCFH of air with a bioload greater than that one SCFH can handle (anecdotal info. would suggest 1 SCFH is more than sufficient for 10 gallons of saltwater that is well-stocked), then you will have those bubbles produced saturated with more easily adhered proteins and those proteins that take a long dwell time will be left to circulate back into the aquarium.

Another issue is whether those proteins that take a long time to adhere really matter... No one knows this of course.

In the end, if my protein skimmer is producing 1 SCFH per 10 gallons of water volume in my tank, I would rather flow the tank water more slowly through the skimmer at about 1 to 1.5X the tank volume per hour. The bigger the skimmer for a given tank volume, the longer the dwell time. My target dwell time is around 5 minutes, not many people can reach this based on the size of their tank and limits on the skimmer size. I think it does help though so for me, slow flow with adequate air input is my preferred choice.

For example, based on your first example. The first one being 5 gallons of water in your skimmer with 20 SCFH and 100 gallon throughput, which gives you a 3 min dwell time. That's pretty good and will capture a lot of proteins... Now, you could easily skim 200 gallons (1SCFH/10 gallons) with that skimmer and keep the protein load pretty low.

Now, with the second example. The 5 gallons of skimmer volume and 100 SCFH with 500 gallon throughput, giving you a dwell time of 36 seconds. So, you could skim 1000 gallons (1SCFH/10 gallons) pretty adequately, but the protein load would be much higher than the first example, just because throughput time is just two fast and dwell time is so low. This may not be the idea situation for a lot of SPS, but may be great for a liverock/fish or even softy tank.

Just depends on how you want to skim and what exactly you are trying to keep in the tank. If you use carbon religiously or some other organic compound adsorber than maybe this won't be an issue... actually, like I mentioned earlier, maybe there is no issue at all no matter how you are skimming. Personally, I like the reasoning behind example 1... keep dwell times high for maximal protein capture. If you want to do this via slower flows through the sump, then that's great, but I like keeping the sump high flow to keep detritus in suspension so that my skimmer can grab it all. So, that's why I think it would be great to have a recirc. model.

Those are my current thoughts on skimming. Hehe. It's confusing and I hope I haven't lost anyone in the discussion. In no way am I saying you can't have an amazing tank if you don't hit the "idea" parameters since like I've said before, no one really knows what longer dwell time really gets you beside grabbing the more tenacious proteins.

Peace,
John

africangrey · 10/13/2006, 10:01 AM

Hi john,
What is SCFH, and what formula did you use to derive the dwell time, 1 SCFH/10 gal.=3min dwell time?

UCanDoIt · 10/13/2006, 10:06 AM

go bigger! great for in case you upgrade later.

Beenalongtime79 · 10/13/2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by africangrey
Hi john,
What is SCFH, and what formula did you use to derive the dwell time, 1 SCFH/10 gal.=3min dwell time?

The dwell time is independent of the air injected (ie. 1SCFH/10gal)

The 1 SCFH is actually borrowed from Spazz here on RC who has done a bunch of testing and made quite a few skimmers. I believe it is a great number to start from though so I use it as a good tool for a roundabout calculation of what I require.

For dwell time: Take the flowthrough: 100 gallons per hour and divide by total skimmer volume: 5 gallons (100/5= 20 or 20 times flowthrough in one hour) From there, take 60 minutes/20 and you get 3 minutes for 1 times flowthrough. So, in theory, for every particle that enters your skimmer, it should flow out in roughly 3 minutes.

So, as you can see the SCFH has nothing to do with this equation.

Clear as mud? Hehe

Peace,
John H.

UCanDoIt · 10/13/2006, 11:10 AM

I've been looking at photos of the BM skimmers always from the other angle and just noticed this one from the reverse angle. Is anyone concerned about this connection? Looks like just acrylic tube glued to acrylic body. On other aquarium products, I've seen connections like this, crack or craze overtime. I'm no expert on acrylic dynamics, maybe an acrylic person can comment. I would think that it's not hard to replace with a schedule 80 elbow so it has solid support on both sides or at least an extra layer of acrylic support for peace of mind.

Beenalongtime79 · 10/13/2006, 12:20 PM

Ucandoit,

I think as long as you aren't lifting the skimmer by the joint. It should be fine. Crazing is due to improper setting with poor materials. So, hopefully this thing will be cast acrylic and it should be fine.

Peace,
John

Ginzo · 10/13/2006, 12:29 PM

There's a 500 model ?

I'm setting up a 120g and I think I will be going with the 200 model.

Quote:

Originally posted by africangrey
I have a heavily stocked SPS but only 3 fish in my 120 gal. , do you think I should get the 250 or 500. I have taught to oversize on skimmer like I usually do with my Big Mac meal.

Quatro · 10/13/2006, 12:37 PM

I think he meant the BM250 which can handle 500 gallons. I'd go with the BM250 just to overskim since you've got SPS

sherm71tank · 10/13/2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roland Jacques
Sherm71tank,

Whats up with Old Glory upside down??? = SOS

you need help?

We all do. But that is not an appropriate discussion for this BB.

46bfinGA · 10/13/2006, 03:29 PM

I asked Greg at Reefgeek if they were made of cast acrylic,and he seemed to think that the demo he got was in fact cast.But i seem to remember reading somewhere mentioning that they were made out of plexiglass material.does anyone know for sure?

UCanDoIt · 10/13/2006, 03:34 PM

plexiglass is acrylic

plexiglass is a brand of acrylic as i understand. someone can correct me if i'm wrong. most of the german made skimmers use extruded acrylic, but their quality of extruded acrylic is hard to see a difference as it looks exactly like our american made cast acrylic. definitely a better quality overseas that here for extruded.

as comparison, ER uses cast and ASM uses extruded.

46bfinGA · 10/13/2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UCanDoIt
plexiglass is acrylic plexiglass is a brand of acrylic as i understand. someone can correct me if i'm wrong. most of the german made skimmers use extruded acrylic, but their quality of extruded acrylic is hard to see a difference as it looks exactly like our american made cast acrylic. definitely a better quality overseas that here for extruded.

as comparison, ER uses cast and ASM uses extruded.

Well i emailed Oliver Pritzel to find out what the skimmers are made of. I also asked him about the output joint to clear up any concerns on that,and if he had any thoughts on putting a gate valve on the output to fine tune the skimmer a bit.ill be sure to let you guys know what he says.

Roland Jacques · 10/13/2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UCanDoIt
plexiglass is acrylic plexiglass is a brand of acrylic as i understand. someone can correct me if i'm wrong. most of the german made skimmers use extruded acrylic, but their quality of extruded acrylic is hard to see a difference as it looks exactly like our american made cast acrylic. definitely a better quality overseas that here for extruded.

as comparison, ER uses cast and ASM uses extruded.

im no expert on acrylic but i think asm is actualy extuded PVC or plexiglass they call it extuded acrylic but it does not look like the extuded acrlic tubes ive seen. but it does look just like Clear pvc that i have bought in the past. i agree that the elbow looks like a weak spot. i new they had to mess up something, good catch.

Hey john,
got to go right now, but ill get back to your post asap. lot of good points.

i you should check out the last 2 pages of the discussion Beckett vs NW. the contact time/dwell time is such a grey area.

Roland Jacques · 10/13/2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sherm71tank
We all do. But that is not an appropriate discussion for this BB.

That why my ultimate faith is in the Lord. Man kind always messes up things. PM me if you want.

Creetin · 10/13/2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UCanDoIt
I've been looking at photos of the BM skimmers always from the other angle and just noticed this one from the reverse angle. Is anyone concerned about this connection? Looks like just acrylic tube glued to acrylic body. On other aquarium products, I've seen connections like this, crack or craze overtime. I'm no expert on acrylic dynamics, maybe an acrylic person can comment. I would think that it's not hard to replace with a schedule 80 elbow so it has solid support on both sides or at least an extra layer of acrylic support for peace of mind.

It does look like it would be the weakest point of the skimmer, But i think it can be strong, looking at the physical aspect that bevel cut has more surface area for glue than any other joint on there. Scale wise that is.
I am definately not going to pick it up by it.

I dont think asm is clear pvc
I have some 4.5 inch clear pvc, and its quite expensive, and TOUGH!!!! I could bounce it off the floor as hard as i can and it wont break.
More so than acrylic.

UCanDoIt · 10/13/2006, 05:48 PM

Simple solution and peace of mind is to glue an extra acrylic support piece about 2" diameter or 2" square on the outside to give that joint a little extra support. Will certainly help potential buyers feel better about the sturdiness of this unit.

Creetin · 10/13/2006, 05:51 PM

Also what you dont see untill you zoom in the pic is that once it gets into the skimmer another bevel cut is made to plumb the pipe down below the bubble plate and looks to be glued to it.
So it looks to be a little sturdier around that area as well.
You can always get a piece of acrylic and use it as a flange and glue it to the body and riser pipe to give it extra strength. Which i might do as well.

Creetin · 10/13/2006, 05:54 PM

Ucandoit, That would work as well. **** does happen.

Creetin · 10/13/2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Creetin
Also what you dont see untill you zoom in the pic is that once it gets into the skimmer another bevel cut is made to plumb the pipe down below the bubble plate and looks to be glued to it.
So it looks to be a little sturdier around that area as well.
You can always get a piece of acrylic and use it as a flange and glue it to the body and riser pipe to give it extra strength. Which i might do as well.

I was wrong it looks to be glued to the bubble tube. It is beveled, Just to let waterflow out of the chamber.

UCanDoIt · 10/13/2006, 05:59 PM

I just talked to my Aquarium technician about this and he saw the same weakness. He says that about 15-20 years ago, he has had quite a few clients with this type of connection on the external overflow boxes and wet/dry filters (this was before bulkheads were used) and after a number of years, hairline cracks and salt creep developed because of the vibrations constanting putting some pressure on joints like this. He says it's a really simple solution, glue an U shaped acrylic piece around the bottom side of the return tube to support it. Best done at time of fabrication because if done now after it has been polished, crazing will definitely take place.

Creetin · 10/13/2006, 06:07 PM

One more thing, Is that wing nut and bolt going thru into the skimmer body? Hmmm.

jman77 · 10/13/2006, 07:20 PM

"we cant wait to get ours...check this video out...

http://www.it-kontaktmanagement.de/bm_action.swfv"

Good lord....

i know what my next skimmer will be

Creetin · 10/13/2006, 07:35 PM

Bad link

africangrey · 10/13/2006, 10:22 PM

I hope the BM is ozone friedly, does anyone have info regarding that?

10/13/2006, 11:10 AM	#131
UCanDoIt Moved On Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,684	Weak Connection, Potential Problem??? I've been looking at photos of the BM skimmers always from the other angle and just noticed this one from the reverse angle. Is anyone concerned about this connection? Looks like just acrylic tube glued to acrylic body. On other aquarium products, I've seen connections like this, crack or craze overtime. I'm no expert on acrylic dynamics, maybe an acrylic person can comment. I would think that it's not hard to replace with a schedule 80 elbow so it has solid support on both sides or at least an extra layer of acrylic support for peace of mind.

10/13/2006, 05:51 PM	#143
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	Also what you dont see untill you zoom in the pic is that once it gets into the skimmer another bevel cut is made to plumb the pipe down below the bubble plate and looks to be glued to it. So it looks to be a little sturdier around that area as well. You can always get a piece of acrylic and use it as a flange and glue it to the body and riser pipe to give it extra strength. Which i might do as well. __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

10/13/2006, 05:54 PM	#144
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	Ucandoit, That would work as well. **** does happen. __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

10/13/2006, 06:07 PM	#147
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	One more thing, Is that wing nut and bolt going thru into the skimmer body? Hmmm. __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

10/13/2006, 07:35 PM	#149
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	Bad link __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

10/13/2006, 09:53 AM	#126
africangrey Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: N San Jose Posts: 1,483	I have a heavily stocked SPS but only 3 fish in my 120 gal. , do you think I should get the 250 or 500. I have taught to oversize on skimmer like I usually do with my Big Mac meal.

10/13/2006, 10:01 AM	#128
africangrey Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: N San Jose Posts: 1,483	Hi john, What is SCFH, and what formula did you use to derive the dwell time, 1 SCFH/10 gal.=3min dwell time?

10/13/2006, 10:06 AM	#129
UCanDoIt Moved On Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,684	go bigger! great for in case you upgrade later.

10/13/2006, 12:20 PM	#132
Beenalongtime79 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,437	Ucandoit, I think as long as you aren't lifting the skimmer by the joint. It should be fine. Crazing is due to improper setting with poor materials. So, hopefully this thing will be cast acrylic and it should be fine. Peace, John

10/13/2006, 12:37 PM	#134
Quatro Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Folsom, CA Posts: 541	I think he meant the BM250 which can handle 500 gallons. I'd go with the BM250 just to overskim since you've got SPS

10/13/2006, 03:29 PM	#136
46bfinGA Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ball Ground, Ga. Posts: 1,333	I asked Greg at Reefgeek if they were made of cast acrylic,and he seemed to think that the demo he got was in fact cast.But i seem to remember reading somewhere mentioning that they were made out of plexiglass material.does anyone know for sure?

10/13/2006, 03:34 PM	#137
UCanDoIt Moved On Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,684	plexiglass is acrylic plexiglass is a brand of acrylic as i understand. someone can correct me if i'm wrong. most of the german made skimmers use extruded acrylic, but their quality of extruded acrylic is hard to see a difference as it looks exactly like our american made cast acrylic. definitely a better quality overseas that here for extruded. as comparison, ER uses cast and ASM uses extruded.

10/13/2006, 05:48 PM	#142
UCanDoIt Moved On Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,684	Simple solution and peace of mind is to glue an extra acrylic support piece about 2" diameter or 2" square on the outside to give that joint a little extra support. Will certainly help potential buyers feel better about the sturdiness of this unit.

10/13/2006, 05:59 PM	#146
UCanDoIt Moved On Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,684	I just talked to my Aquarium technician about this and he saw the same weakness. He says that about 15-20 years ago, he has had quite a few clients with this type of connection on the external overflow boxes and wet/dry filters (this was before bulkheads were used) and after a number of years, hairline cracks and salt creep developed because of the vibrations constanting putting some pressure on joints like this. He says it's a really simple solution, glue an U shaped acrylic piece around the bottom side of the return tube to support it. Best done at time of fabrication because if done now after it has been polished, crazing will definitely take place.

10/13/2006, 07:20 PM	#148
jman77 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 2,391	"we cant wait to get ours...check this video out... http://www.it-kontaktmanagement.de/bm_action.swfv" Good lord.... i know what my next skimmer will be

10/13/2006, 10:22 PM	#150
africangrey Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: N San Jose Posts: 1,483	I hope the BM is ozone friedly, does anyone have info regarding that?