NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[jc03]

What about running a small air stone in the emergency?

[TheFishMan65]

It would help, but it doesn't really solve the problem. In an ideal world your tank is level and water will flow equally into both over flows. The emergency will not be an emergency, it will flow water. So you need to get the water out of that over flow to keep the emergency and emergency.

[jc03]

I was thinking that but what if the emergency pipe is set higher than the main, above the bottom teeth of the overflow? In my thought, the main would act as a full siphon and that pipe would only flow water if the main was plugged. Because water would be above the emergency overflow teeth it seems like there would be a little agitation there? The noise of the dursos I have is just too much.

[TheFishMan65]

That would prevent water from entering the emergency, but depending on flow the emergency might not be able to form a siphon. If the water is shallow enough that a vortex forms and allows air then you may risk an over flow. If you do it this way rather than an air stone you might consider a power head to help circulate the water. Either would probably work though.

[jc03]

I'm afraid of the vortex but only have an inch or two to play with below the top of the tank to make that standpipe an emergency drain. Any ideas? Has anyone set this up before?

[TheFishMan65]

I don't remember reading about it, but maybe someone will respond. What about a siphon pipe (as mentioned above) linking the 2 weirs?

[jc03]

Unfortunately, I don't think I could do that either. There is a parition in the inside of each overflow facing the inside of the tank. There are teeth low on the box and water flows up, over the partition.

[TheFishMan65]

So can you fit it after the partition?

[calebjimz]

would this system work for a pump rated for about 1600 gph, - a 4-5ft headheight, along with a 1.25 diameter return piping with about 4 bends in it?

[TheFishMan65]

Is think you will be ok. Four feet of head and a 1 inch opening (different than pip size) can get up around 2300 GPH. Your a little larger, but then you have bends so hard to say for sure.

[nctinter]

I had a new sump built and replummed my system. 265g with a 80g sump. I hooked up a dart for the return and had to throttle it back to less than half power. I have two 1" drains. I use one as a full siphon and one as emergency. The return is about 10 feet of head loss but it is 1.5" the whole way. Should I be able to get more drainage and more flow from the return with this setup ?

[nctinter]

So I got my drain working. Full throttle dart on a one inch drain. Today I had to turn it off for a bit and when I restarted I couldn't get the drain to fully siphon again. Can't figure it out. Anyone have suggestions

[TheFishMan65]

If you block the emergency does the siphon form? Where is the valve, how far under water is the outlet?

[nctinter]

I havent tried blocking the emergency yet. Drain runs down from one corner then a 90.then about 4 feet another 90 and then the gate valve about a foot above sump water line. The pipe ends about 3/4 inch under water

[Rocketboy52]

You need to cross a minimum threshold with either flow or head pressure for a drain line to self start a siphon. If you change the head pressure, (raise drain, increase pipe diameter, reduce turns in the plumbing, or simply decrease the amount that your drain penetrates the water in your sump you should be able to easily fix it.

The first and simplest test is to raise the exit out end of the water an inch and see the drain will self start a siphon. If it does with the end out of the water, you will know you are really close. The deeper the exit is in the sump, the more pressure needed to purge the air when the siphon starts. If the drain will siphon with the exit open to air (least pressure possible) then a very minor change in plumbing will usually fix the problem as its only a tenth of a psi difference that will cause or prevent a self starting siphon. You can also increase the water height in your overflow over the intake, or shorten the top of the pipe to get it further underwater which will also give you more head pressure and help you in getting the siphon to self start. Also minimize long horizontal runs of line, as they increase fluid drag, but don't add any head pressure benefit.

[nctinter]

Thank you rocket. Very informative. I read somewhere else to try drilling a hole on the exit pipe just above the water line in the sump. I think I have a combination of problems. Three 90s is one. I think my pipe in the overflow may be too tall. It's about 8 inches below the teeth. Is there a good way to tell for sure that the siphon is running ? I had to restrict the output on the dart considerably when i restarted this yesterday and before I had it run wide open

[Rocketboy52]

Originally Posted by nctinter

Thank you rocket. Very informative. I read somewhere else to try drilling a hole on the exit pipe just above the water line in the sump. I think I have a combination of problems. Three 90s is one. I think my pipe in the overflow may be too tall. It's about 8 inches below the teeth. Is there a good way to tell for sure that the siphon is running ? I had to restrict the output on the dart considerably when i restarted this yesterday and before I had it run wide open

My guess not being there is that at wide open you are not a siphon, at when considerably restricted you are probably running a siphon. If you are flowing water and it is fast, and you pick up the exit tube out of the sump and its not gurgling, you are most likely running a siphon. I think drilling a hole above the water line is a bad idea as it could prevent siphon from starting in the first place if its too big as it will provide a vent if the flow isn't high enough. Another good indication that the siphon is flowing is that when the drain first start flowing it will gurgle and slurp, once flowing, it will be silent in the pipes. As the siphon starts it will usually give a single big air purging burp as it starts, if you don't hear or see that, its probably not siphoning. My 1" drains probably flow 3-4 times the quantity of water as a drain when the siphon is running so if my over flow water is high and using the 2nd and 3rd drains then the main drain doesn't have a siphon and the water gets high enough to go through the 2ndary vented line and emergency drain lines.

[antjtc]

Originally Posted by Herbie

O.k. Here are the pictures I have promised. I just put them all in the pictures section instead of loading up this thread with them. Just click on the link at the bottom for pictures and slight descriptions. The main Description of this DIY return plumbing method and theorys on why it works are in this thread...read them here.
Note about the pictures: I am still in the testing phases of setting this tank up, so the tank,sump,refugium are empty. Just running with fresh water untill I get my plumbing perfect first. I plan on removing all of the vinyl hose after all tests are complete!
On the sump pictures, the PVC is the main ball valved controlled returns to the sump/refugium. I am looking for gate valves to replace these with as they should offer a more precise control over flow rates that will not "get stuck" like ball valves.
The Grey vinyl hose is the return from the "emergency" return to sump. I will replace this with 1" pvc pipe like the main return as soon as I can figure the best place to "dump" it into the sump.
The clear vinyl hose is the output from the pump(just a RIO 2100 for now) to the tank. Just an over the rim type of return with safety holes drill in it to prevent a back flow to the sump in the event of a power outage. I will eventually like to plumb this to a Sea swirl type of rotating pump return.
Note: ALL the pictures are at full operating flow rates, approx. 450 -500 gph. Do you see any air bubbles in the sump???? This set-up is EXTREMELY QUIET. It is right next to the TV, and the DVD player,when its running, makes more noise than this tank does when its running. THIS IS NOT A JOKE! I am completely honest about this. If you cant stand all the noise your overflow/sump makes, you should give this a try!
I will gladly answer any questions about this or try to offer any help in set-up if anyone needs it.
Any questions or comments????
Later Herbie
Silent overflow system pictures.

When I click on your link for the pic it does not show,but instead it says error

[plunderisley]

deleted. dupe post

[plunderisley]

I started off with no mods - too loud
I made the durso standpipe and that helped, but it still makes noise.
I want to get the system even quieter.


hmm is there a way I can get this to work on a tank with just 1 drain? I was thinking of putting in a Y adapter, having a pipe go straight up and put the ball valve. on the other Y branch off, put a 30degree connector to get the emergency overflow.The tank came with a small sheet of drilled acrylic which is a snail catcher. I can place that on top of the pipes to prevent any snail problems.

[TheFishMan65]

IMHO you can't do it with one drain. The second will allow air which defeats the silence of the siphon.

[Hal]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

IMHO you can't do it with one drain. The second will allow air which defeats the silence of the siphon.

This is my fear too. Can anyone chime in who's tried to T their two lines?

[illjoshlli]

Originally Posted by Hal

This is my fear too. Can anyone chime in who's tried to T their two lines?

I haven't tried it but what if you put a small hole on the secondary (emergency) side just below the intended water line? I would think this would give you enough water to fill that side down to the T to allow a siphon. So, your total siphon would be the water coming in from the ball-valve reduced standard drain (left side of drawing) + the water coming in from the small hole on the secondary drain (right side). This is totally just an idea; I don’t know if this would actually work.

This would not resolve the issue if you get a clog below the ‘y’ splitter

[Snausy]

I actually built my "Herbie" overflows before reading this thread and I installed two gatevalves and my drains are seperated. I did this thinking that if one gets clogged somehow the other is still rolling along, which is true.

What I ended up doing is the "trickle" method and I have the level up to the emergency(1/2" below water level in tank so no sound) and just the tinyest trickle of water goes down the emergencies at all times. Solved my equalization problem and having a dead silent 300 gallon tank with a sump that looks like it's standing water is AMAZING to me.

Still thinking about joining the returns to one gate valve. I wonder if it's really that much better. Anyone done both and have some input on the actual difference? I may do it just to have only one drain going into sump and save some space.

[plunderisley]

Originally Posted by illjoshlli

I haven't tried it but what if you put a small hole on the secondary (emergency) side just below the intended water line? I would think this would give you enough water to fill that side down to the T to allow a siphon. So, your total siphon would be the water coming in from the ball-valve reduced standard drain (left side of drawing) + the water coming in from the small hole on the secondary drain (right side). This is totally just an idea; I don’t know if this would actually work.

This would not resolve the issue if you get a clog below the ‘y’ splitter

Yeah, I am worried with the clogging, but as I have only 1 drain, even if I had no pipe and something fell in, it would clog. The safer method is the durso standpipe as the intake is facing down, so something really needs to try to get in there to clog it.