Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

I wonder if Mr Pederson finds me a disappointment. I've made no effort to supply him with his own anemone, though he had a shot at one before I added the spotted anemone shrimp. I looked at mushrooms and ricordea, but those spread too much. I'm considering a flower anemone - a seagrass resident. But it has to be pretty.

[sam.basye]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I wonder if Mr Pederson finds me a disappointment.

He's not the only one..


Keep up the good work!
Zippy sure changed colors faster than I would have expected. Definitely a cool experience.

[taricha]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I wonder if Mr Pederson finds me a disappointment. I've made no effort to supply him with his own anemone, though he had a shot at one before I added the spotted anemone shrimp. I looked at mushrooms and ricordea, but those spread too much. I'm considering a flower anemone - a seagrass resident. But it has to be pretty.

I've ordered from k&p, and gotten some awesome Florida life (current fave - pair of jawfish). I saw they had some very cool flower anemones. A yellow and white one looked pretty striking.

[Michael Hoaster]

I set you up for that one, didn't I, Sam?

I was just thinking, how easy it is to blame the fish or whatever, for not behaving as they're advertised. More often than not, it's our own faults, for not providing the conditions needed to facilitate their desired behavior. Maybe a nice flower anemone would give the proper stage for Mr Pederson to perform. Sounds like a great excuse to get more stuff!

Taricha, I was just visiting KP Aquatics. They do have some nice wysiwyg flower anemones! I got my tang and gramma harem from them. I think they're the best of the Florida collectors-of animals. For macros, Gulf Coast Ecosystems, and for seagrasses, Florida Pets. I also like Aquarium Depot for killer deals on frags and pods.

[jraker]

Michael, thanks for suggesting FloridaPets. I will get some shoal grass from them.

[Michael Hoaster]

My pleasure, jraker! I like those guys a lot. I like your choice of shoal grass as well. It's a gorgeous plant, and a lot less demanding than say, turtle grass, which needs a generously deep sand bed.

[nawilson89]

Shoal Grass was my seagrass of choice until Caulerpa wiped alot of it out.

For a while though, a shoot would come back.

It still may be down there, biding it's time.

[Michael Hoaster]

It looks like Phyllis has gotten with the program and started eating aiptasias. The trick now is deciding how long to keep her in the display. I wish I could keep her, but she's also nibbled on my gorgonian and she isn't a caribbean species. I looked at caribbean filefish, and the only one small enough to consider includes seagrass in its diet. Regardless, it's a fish I recommend, for both its utility (aiptasia eating) and its entertainment value. Kind of a fun cross between a seahorse and a flounder! With a larger tank, a small school of them would be awesome. Plus, they're easily sexable.

I have fond memories of wondering if I had too much caulerpa. Now that I've gotten it down to a much smaller amount, I wonder if I have enough. I'm concerned it will be replaced with micro algae, if the seagrasses alone don't soak up enough nutrients. The tank looks a little stark, compared to the jungle of macros I had months ago. One factor that should help is the ever-increasing biomass of sponges. These simple creatures have an amazing capacity to naturally filter seawater. But I do admit, I miss the variety of macros I had before.

This brings me to the question of Zippy, the atlantic blue tang. One of the things I said when I was considering getting one, is that if he was too destructive, I'd remove him. If his actions leave me with micro algae in place of caulerpa, then I think I may have reached that point. As he grows, my tank seems less likely to be big enough to support him. Pulling him out would allow me to add some other fish I'm interested in…

[nawilson89]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

It looks like Phyllis has gotten with the program and started eating aiptasias. The trick now is deciding how long to keep her in the display. I wish I could keep her, but she's also nibbled on my gorgonian and she isn't a caribbean species. I looked at caribbean filefish, and the only one small enough to consider includes seagrass in its diet. Regardless, it's a fish I recommend, for both its utility (aiptasia eating) and its entertainment value. Kind of a fun cross between a seahorse and a flounder! With a larger tank, a small school of them would be awesome. Plus, they're easily sexable.

I have fond memories of wondering if I had too much caulerpa. Now that I've gotten it down to a much smaller amount, I wonder if I have enough. I'm concerned it will be replaced with micro algae, if the seagrasses alone don't soak up enough nutrients. The tank looks a little stark, compared to the jungle of macros I had months ago. One factor that should help is the ever-increasing biomass of sponges. These simple creatures have an amazing capacity to naturally filter seawater. But I do admit, I miss the variety of macros I had before.

This brings me to the question of Zippy, the atlantic blue tang. One of the things I said when I was considering getting one, is that if he was too destructive, I'd remove him. If his actions leave me with micro algae in place of caulerpa, then I think I may have reached that point. As he grows, my tank seems less likely to be big enough to support him. Pulling him out would allow me to add some other fish I'm interested in…

What other fish are you interested in?

I wish I could get a file fish to eat my aiptasia. Though my tank is a bit small.

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[Darth_Tater]

I have a question I'm sure you've covered before, but there is a lot of thread here to read through! So I'm going to ask again. What are you using for cleanup crew? I have a display fuge that I'm starting to get lots of microalgae in and wondered if you had and/or could recommend inverts that will eat microalgae more than macros.

[Michael Hoaster]

There are a few other fish I may want to try, but it would be difficult, with the tang. He's kind of "the king". One fish I'm particularly interested in is the Rocky Beauty. This fish has a terrible survival rate, but I think it may be because it isn't fed properly. The key, I think, is sponge. There are a couple of sponge based foods out there these days, so I may try my hand.

My cleanup crew consists of two reproducing snails- Cerith and mini Strombus. No hermit crabs. Since these snails reproduce in captivity, you get snails of all sizes, as they grow. This is key for keeping macros and seagrasses clean and free of micro algae. Tiny snails can get into smaller crevices.

[jraker]

Have you considered Caribbean wrasses or maybe even a blue or indigo hamlet?

[Michael Hoaster]

I have looked at those, jraker. Wrasses are tricky. In my opinion, most wrasses are too smart. They end up finding and eating every living thing in the tank, throwing off the balance of the ecosystem. Hamlets are gorgeous, but maybe a little too big and carnivorous. I think it would eventually eat all my other fish.

I appreciate the suggestions! I'll take another look at the caribbean wrasses, and see if there's one that would work.

[McPuff]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I have looked at those, jraker. Wrasses are tricky. In my opinion, most wrasses are too smart. They end up finding and eating every living thing in the tank, throwing off the balance of the ecosystem. Hamlets are gorgeous, but maybe a little too big and carnivorous. I think it would eventually eat all my other fish.

I appreciate the suggestions! I'll take another look at the caribbean wrasses, and see if there's one that would work.

Hamlets are also quite shy typically so you wouldn't likely see it very much out and about. And it will eat your shrimp, so likely a no go.

Wrasses should be ok citizens but you are correct that they will hunt down all of your copepods as they are always on the look out for food. But honestly, wouldn't you love to have a fish called a "slippery dick" in your tank. :0) It is a Caribbean wrasse after all!

It's too bad about Zippy potentially leaving the nest as those are super cool fish. You're sure to notice a big change in macro algae abundance and diversity soon after he's out. You'll have no problem finding a good home for him either as it's not common to find an Atlantic Blue, let alone finding a nice healthy specimen.

The Rock Beauty is a difficult species to keep largely due to its reliance on sponge material... so you may think about again this one. It'll decimate your sponge population which you seem to be quite keen on. And once that's gone, who knows if it'll take to frozen sponge preparations. I'd not risk it if I were in your shoes.

You could consider chalk bass as you'd be able to get a small group of them... I believe you've thought about these before. Another on your list was the pygmy angel, yes? That one will be a must-have in my opinion. And you could also consider a juvenile French angel or even a Queen. They'll probably pick at everything (macro, sponge) as they get bigger but as younger fish they should be model citizens. Not sure you want to keep rotating species though...

Although not a fish, I can't remember if you've got a conch. If not, then certainly consider one!

Lots of possibilities to consider which is exciting in my opinion. Looking forward to seeing what you end up with.

[Darth_Tater]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

My cleanup crew consists of two reproducing snails- Cerith and mini Strombus. No hermit crabs. Since these snails reproduce in captivity, you get snails of all sizes, as they grow. This is key for keeping macros and seagrasses clean and free of micro algae. Tiny snails can get into smaller crevices.

Thanks! I've got Ceriths, "regular" and "dwarf", but I've never seen these mini Strombus. I'll have to keep my eyes open for them.

Out of curiosity, do you stay away from the hermits just because they eat snails, or for other reasons as well?

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks for the input, McPuff! You make excellent points. Also, let me extend a Colorado Congratulations on your 420th post!

Slippery dick may be the funniest fish name ever.

Yeah, I'd really prefer to keep Zippy. But no fish is more important than the overall system health. You're spot-on with the Rock Beauty. I'd probably only get one if I decided to give up on sponges, or, in the unlikely event that my tank became overrun with them. I'd just really like to have a medium-largish "personality fish" that didn't throw off the balance of my little ecosystem.

Chalk Bass are on my list, but I'm afraid it may be too late to add them, now that the Royal Grammas are established. I should have added them both, all at once. I've read that the grammas don't take kindly to new fish, their size and shape.

I'm still debating the Cherub Angelfish. May even attempt a small harem of them. My main concern is that they can get aggressive.

The Queen Angel is my "ultimate" fish, but yeah, I don't want to have to rotate it out. I hope to have one someday, when I have a bigger tank.

I do have a fighting conch. I call her Mom, because she's always vacuuming!

It is exciting considering the possibilities, and extra challenging keeping it all Caribbean!

[Michael Hoaster]

Yes, Darth Tater, the mini strombus are hard to find. I don't know of any dealers that sell them anymore. They keep my seagrasses clean. Most snails are much too big to climb the blades that are only a few millimeters thick. If you ever come across some, buy them!

The fact that hermits eat snails is the main reason I avoid them, but there are others. The problem is that they're omnivores. If they've got nothing but algae to eat, that's what they'll eat. But once they get a taste for fish food, they're worthless as algae controllers.

In my opinion you should choose snails OR hermits, not both. And snails are MUCH better algae consumers, hence my no hermit rule. Why buy an inferior algae eater that also kills superior algae eaters?

[Darth_Tater]

Good points, thanks again!

And I know you've talked before about Blue Reef Chromis, but I still think a group of them would be pretty awesome. Then again, I completely understand why you'd be hesitant of trying them.

Are you afraid the Chalk Bass would go after your shrimp? It's hard to stick to a biotope! I've tried before with freshwater and always end up breaking the rules.

[Michael Hoaster]

I would absolutely love to get blue chromis! I may still try them despite their reputation for killing each other off. I wonder if their "darwinian" tendencies could be curved if well fed.

I'm less concerned with chalk bass eating my shrimp, than an all out turf war with the grammas. So far the shrimp have avoided being eaten by the grammas and barnacle blennies. I think it's because they preceded them. For some reason, their "seniority" seems to protect them. But when I try to add peppermint shrimps…chomp!

I just gave the tank a visual once-over and I can find no aiptasias! HALLELUJAH! Now, to figure out how to catch Phyllis. I think I may keep her in my quarantine tank for future temp work, if needed. Hopefully I can get her to eat fish food!

Hey, if anyone out there has experience adding chalk bass AFTER royal grammas are established, I'd love to hear from you.

[nawilson89]

Well I've added swiss basslet after a royal gramma. There was a bit of harassing in the beginning but after a while it wasn't alot, granted it was in a 29g so they were smooshed together.

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[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks nawilson89! Ooh, the swiss guard basslet is on my list too! Kinda pricey, but I want one.

So, from your experience, do you think I could add, say, 7 chalk bass to a 180 gallon tank, with 7 established grammas?

[nawilson89]

Well my experience would be vastly different I think considering it's only one of each species in a much smaller tank. I think "safety in numbers" could apply and each fish would feel more comfortable with their own kind in a harem situation.

Then there is depth. I can't remember which fish lives deeper in an ocean setting and that may play a factor also. My idea of something like that (and if I had a tank that large I would probably have multiple species of basslets living together), would be that each species would claim it's own territory.

How many bottle caves do you have?

[Michael Hoaster]

More good points, nawilson89.

As for depth, I think chalk bass hang kind of close to the sand, in shallow waters. The grammas like walls in deeper water. In my tank, this would be flipped, with the deep water wall being above the sand. But it probably doesn't matter. The important thing being they inhabit different zones. I'll go back and do some more reading.

Safety in numbers is another relevant factor. I imagine it would be a very different situation, adding one chalk bass, versus seven.

I think there are 22 bottle caves, so plenty to go around. Hmm…maybe it could work!

[McPuff]

Adding a "personality fish" will be difficult under the terms you've set forth. Because they are larger and have more influence on the ecosystem you're working hard to establish, it will not be possible to keep such a fish long term. That's just the reality of keeping certain fishes. If you want to maintain the ecosystem as a whole, then you'll have to settle with small fish... and probably not many of them. OR... you can get a bigger tank and try this experiment on a grander scale!!

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks, McPuff. You're probably right.

The ecosystem whole is more important than one fish. I do love the small fish, so it's no biggie. I was just thinking, if I have to remove the tang, what could I replace it with? The Rock Beauty is the smallest non-pygmy caribbean angelfish, so it would be perfect, except for its diet. And they are stunning! But I am getting some good sponge growth, and I've basically set up the right quarter of my tank to accommodate them. I guess it's back to the Cherub Angelfish harem idea.

I'm still willing to entertain other fish suggestions! It just needs to be a medium sized (4-8inches), caribbean fish, that won't eat all my plants, and won't eat all the other smaller fish, or sponges, or anemones, or gorgonia. Simple! Ha! The cherub angel fits the bill, with its diet (omnivore), but it's kinda small.

I managed to catch Phyllis yesterday and got her into the QT. I hope she learns to eat mysis or cyclops or something. I'll probably return her the the LFS. I'd keep her, but after finishing off the aiptasias, she was going after gorgonia and even the condylactic anemone! Very cool fish though.

I am already thinking about doing a similar tank on a grander scale! Imagine Lookdowns, a Queen angel, and a school of butterflies...