N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[bluereefs]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

Regardless of what the flow is inside the reactor, if your getting that significant of a bacterial bloom from changing nothing but adding the BP reactor (AND NOT DOSING ANY OTHER CARBON SOURCES) then that would clearly indicate that the carbon is leaching from the biopellets and inducing bacterial growth throughout the water column.

This may not create such a dramatic effect in other tanks that have lower nitrates as other tanks with lower nitrates would create a situation in which nitrate would become the limiting nutrient as opposed to the carbon source and that might prevent such a dramatic bacterial bloom.

You should really skim wet and monitor your livestock for signs of oxygen depletion becuase these bacterial blooms can significantly drop pH and lower oxygen levels. It would also help to do some ozone injection during these significant bacterial blooms so the ozone can help replenish the depleted o2 levels as the o3 molecules break apart.

Jeremy

I use this reactor and same bio pellets for months without this bacterial bloom, together with him I use original fluid reactor with 500 ml and once I use 3 reactors on same aquarium, this one, one smaller fluid reactor with 500 ml of bp and one fluid reactor with 1000 ml of bp, no bacterial bloom and cloudines, no dramatic nitrates drop either.

Then I decide to modified this diy reactor with 1000 ml of bp, it was suspicious to me that so much bp and so much vodka can not lower the nitrates. So I remove the sponge, put valve to get fluidization and wash the bp, second day I get cloudines and bacterial bloom, few days latter my nitrates drop to 0,2 mg/lit, they was 100 mg/lit.

I will understend that creating fluidization in this diy reactor create bacterial bloom if I have only this reactor on my aquarium, but in same time I used 2 diferent fluid reactor with bp tumbling and was not get bacterial bloom, bacterial bloom is only related with this diy reactor, that was what puzling me.

There was no ph drop, no oxygen depletion, I tested ph and fish swim and eat normaly, no fish loses. Aquariums did not stink either.

I do this just for experiment, if I will see any sign of animals shock I will stop the experiment.

[bluereefs]

Originally Posted by mm.reefs

How phosphates compared between the tank without bacterial bloom and the other tanks? Can that be the difference???


Very High NO3 + Very High PO4 + Efficient BP = Bacterial Blooms???

That is weird part too, I dont have/had phosphates, always 0 on salifert test kit, before and after ther bp, only nitrates was problem, in one aquarium was 100 mg/lit in second 50 mg/lit, phosphates was 0 (of course 0 on salifert test). Also no algae at all (on my main 150 g aquarium), no cyano, bryopsis....

[jh2pizza]

I guess the big question is this. Has anyone approached the manufacture about posting in this forum to answer some of our questions? I cannot imagine them turning down the opportunity to do so.

[bluereefs]

Here is the picture from 3 months ago, left inside the sump are diy reactor what I modified and after the modification he become bacterial machine, I used 3 reactors once without getting bacterial bloom

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by mm.reefs

Very High NO3 + Very High PO4 + Efficient BP = Bacterial Blooms???

Not necessarily. The "efficient BP" would need to be releasing a carbon source into the water column to get bacterial growth within the water column. Per the manufacuters direction, these pellets do not leach C into the water column and if that is true then they cannot be the cause of the bacterial bloom within the water column - they would only induce bacterial growth on the pellets. That is only if the manufacturers claim that they do not leach C into the water is true.


Bluereefs.

Is you new diy reactor creating significantly more aggressive flow or abraiding the pellets in any way which could be causing them to release any material into the water column???

If you've used these pellets for many months and only saw this significant bacterial bloom after switching to your DIY reactor then there is some aspect of your reactor that is changing how these pellets are functioning. What were the exact modifications to the reactor??

Originally Posted by bluereefs

That is weird part too, I dont have/had phosphates, always 0 on salifert test kit, before and after ther bp

0 po4 on a salifert test kit is likely FAR from 0 in reality. Of the reviews I've read, the salifert po4 test is one of the poorest quality tests for po4 - in both accuracy and precision.

Jeremy

[reefrad]

maybe the main difference was the taking out of the sponges?? when you keep the sponges in place the bacteria clog them up and then leach the nutrients back into the tank.

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

Not necessarily. The "efficient BP" would need to be releasing a carbon source into the water column to get bacterial growth within the water column. Per the manufacuters direction, these pellets do not leach C into the water column and if that is true then they cannot be the cause of the bacterial bloom within the water column - they would only induce bacterial growth on the pellets. That is only if the manufacturers claim that they do not leach C into the water is true.


Bluereefs.

Is you new diy reactor creating significantly more aggressive flow or abraiding the pellets in any way which could be causing them to release any material into the water column???

If you've used these pellets for many months and only saw this significant bacterial bloom after switching to your DIY reactor then there is some aspect of your reactor that is changing how these pellets are functioning. What were the exact modifications to the reactor??



0 po4 on a salifert test kit is likely FAR from 0 in reality. Of the reviews I've read, the salifert po4 test is one of the poorest quality tests for po4 - in both accuracy and precision.

Jeremy

[TheFishMan65]

From my reading maybe not enough skimming. The bacteria should be skimmed out, but if they are not they are leached back into the tank and the break down releasing carbon, nitrogen (maybe as nitrate), and phosphor. At least that is the way I understand it. This free carbon could then lead to a second bacteria bloom in the tank.

[rickyjai8]

so how much should i start off with i have a 180 full sps tank with a 100g sump should i try one bag first

[jmoney]

i would try three liters

[daveonbass]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

Here are the pictures who can maybe explain better what I talking about.
Here is the bacterial bloom created second day after I moved my diy reactor to this aquarium who had 50 mg/lit nitrates



here is the skimmer picture


That diy reactor made similar bacterial bloom in previous aquarium few days after modification. Until modification he work for months without bacterial explosion, I think I do something what made him bacterial machine but dont know exactly what,lol.

Just as a first guess, I would blame the open top...

That immediately implies that not all, much less most, of the Bacteria are not going directly to the skimmer first.

Maybe since something better/new is happening in the DIY reactor, there is more bacteria...and that needs to be skimmed off immediately first...As much as possible.

As we all know I have had HIGH nitrates...and not once through, low, med, or high tumbleing have I had a blook like that. and as seem in my vids, the output is the input for my skimmer. It's all on one pump. So that would be my first guess.

[bluereefs]

Is you new diy reactor creating significantly more aggressive flow or abraiding the pellets in any way which could be causing them to release any material into the water column???

Good thought, I dont think there are much more abrasion then in usual fluid reactors. Will post video latter.

What were the exact modifications to the reactor??

Removed the top lid so efluent can go out from the top as well from the outlet pipe in the left, imo 50% go out from the top and 50 % from the regular outlet. Because that was calcium reactor (reef octopus calcium reactor) intake are diferent, at the bottom of the diy reactor are empty space and pump outlet are positioned diferently what cause vortex efect at the bottom of the reactor, there are no bio pelets, only some grains droped from the compartment upstair. Because there is vortex efect maybe diferent flow create diferent perfomance, even the final results in fluid compartment are very similar as are in regular fluid reactors.

Maybe washing the media in saltwater from aquarium create diference? I will try to wash media in my second normal fluid reactor and see the results.

0 po4 on a salifert test kit is likely FAR from 0 in reality. Of the reviews I've read, the salifert po4 test is one of the poorest quality tests for po4 - in both accuracy and precision.

Yes, I know, that is why I mentioned is from Salifert testing, but anyway testing show no phosphate, also I do not have nuisance algae growth in aquarium so that show that my phosphate must be very low, at the other hand nitrate was sky high, maximum red on Salifert test

maybe the main difference was the taking out of the sponges?? when you keep the sponges in place the bacteria clog them up and then leach the nutrients back into the tank.
Yes but other fluid reactors also dont have sponges, I learn few months ago that sponges and bp in fluid reactor dont get very well together. This diy reactor before modification have sponges because he was flowthrough before modification, without fluidization.

From my reading maybe not enough skimming
I have very strong skimmers on my aquarium, Reef Octopus super skimmers 5000 and 6000SSS, they are in all aquariums.

Just as a first guess, I would blame the open top...

Could be, that was one of my guess too, latter I will put the top back and install him on third aquarium, to see will he create bacterial bloom again with closed top.

Here are the picture to show diference in bio pellets betwen reactors.

Brownish bp are in standard fluid reactor who do not create bacterial boom




White bp are in diy reactor, they create bacterial bloom




Both come from same batch, both are in use for few months but there is obvious diference betwen them. Just for the reacord, before I made diy reactor and before bacterial bloom, bio pellets in diy reactor was also more brownish, not white like now.

[bluereefs]

Here is my octopus fluid reactor, no bacterial bloom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioeiAbts2_Y

here is diy reactor, bacterial maschine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-J4NUkzv8k

[euromomtx]

I would think the flow on the DIY might be too vigorous. Something is getting sloughed off hence the 'normal' pellets have that beige deposit around them and the DIY reactor pellets are completely white.

[tmz]

Sure seems like organic carbon is leaching into the water as the blooms noted as well as stringy material noted are very similar to descriptions of blooms occurring with overdosed carbon sources such as vodka, vinegar etc. Perhaps inorganic carbon builds up over a period of time and then in a high NO3 environment boom.

[ari5736]

125 gallons of water, 1 liters of pellets, nextreef large reactor, mag 5 with nice rolling bubble turnover in reactor, nitrates at ~10ppm after 1 month running. Added another liter of pellets last month, and still holding steady at ~10ppm. No nitrate sinks to speak of . . . what gives. Dial down flow, add another liter of bp, go back to sulphur reactor?

[stevedola]

dial it down and see what happens. i think too much flow doesnt allow for proper bacterial growth.

[stevedola]

Ill explain a little further,

On my fathers tank which was covered in HA the reactor (posban 150 w/500ml NP) was being driven by a maxi 1200. The tumble was minimal but it was tumbling. WIthin 6 wks the HA was 100% GONE! but the pellets had stopped tumbling which everyone told me was bad since they had to be movement for them to work properly. Ordered a bigger pump 396gph to help tumble the pellets. Installed and cranked it up. The pellets were flowing with good movement. Within 2 days the tank became cloudy and trates creeped up from udner 5 to under around 10. I turned down the reactor so it was just barely tumbling at the top and water cleared up within 2 days. Its been over a month and the trates are undetectable on the salifert kit and everything is great in the tank.

[euromomtx]

Thanks for the explanation, Steve.
I am not sure where the need to tumble originated. I asked the inventor/manufacturer and he said extensive tumbling is not necessary. It just needs good flow, not tumble. Some areas will be stagnant and that's fine too.

[TheFishMan65]

One of the threads I read said the tumbling helped get the mulm out so that it could be skimmed out of the system. Whether flow is enough or you need some tumbling I am not sure.

[AquariumSpecialty]

stevedola, sounds like you have it dialed in now. Good job and great info...too much flow is not good and too little flow is not good.

The other point that I think is a good one to make is this:

Use less media than recommended if your aquarium has high NO3 (say 20-30+ PPM or higher) when you begin with NP Biopellets. The bacteria population will explode rapidly and most likely cloud the aquarium with bacteria. Once the NO3 levels begin to come down and/or there is no cloudiness in the water column then it's safe to begin increasing the amount of pellets within the reactor to further reduce NO3 and PO4.

[bluereefs]

In my expirience nothing writed in above posts are not 100 % correct or can be used as a guidelines. Here is my observation on 3 various aquarium who used bp in same time.

First aquarium 150 g
I do have aquarium who starts with low nitrate, almost undectetable, and he use this reactor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioeiAbts2_Y few months already, flow is not strong nor to weak IMO. Now nitrates rised significantly in that aquarium, that is 150 g and use 1000 ml of bp. There is no bacterial bloom in that aquarium even he use 1000 ml, and nitrates rise more then 20 mg/lit. In last few days I slowed the flow as well made him stronger, nothing changed.

Second aquarium 150 g
I do use reactor with slow flow, particulary when the sponges get clogged, inside the reactor was bacterial bloom but nothing outside, those aquarium have high nitrates, 100 mg/lit, no bacterial bloom. Because that was smaller reef octopus reactor flow was on the weaker side, amount was 500 ml on 150 g aquarium, no bacterial bloom. I put bigger fluid reactor on him, with stronger flow and 1000 ml of bio pellets, nothing changed, no bacterial bloom. Now 2 fluid reactor already work on this aquarium, one have smaller quantity and weaker , next have bigger quantity of bp and stronger flow (but not to strong), no bacterial bloom, no changes.
I aded third flow throu reactor on that aquarium, no media tumbling, flow on the stronger side, 1000 ml of bio pellets, nothing changed. 3 diferent reactors with 2500 bio pellets work on that aquarium with 100 mg/lit nitrates without bacterial bloom or significant/drastic nitrate fall.

Third aquarium 100 g
Small quantity of bp was used inside the protein skimmer, usage was not good because due to design most of the water bypass the bio pellets, nitrates rise in that aquarium up to 50 mg/lit.

So I used mostly all kind of configuration, quantity, flow on aquarium with small almost undetectable nitrates up to aquarium with high nitrates without getting bacterial bloom.

After the modification of my diy reactor, something is hapening and whatever amount or flow I use on this reactor he create bacterial bloom. And he do that in 24 hours ar every aquarium I put him even in those aquarium bp was used for months. There must be something what ignite bacterial bloom in some aquariums and not in other. I just spoke with my friend who use 500 ml of bp in smaller octopus reactor and after few months of usage he get bacterial bloom like I get. He have high nitrates but he had high nitrates from the begining and just 2 days ago he get bacterial bloom. And in the begining of this thread are posts where another of my friend get bacterial bloom, and he use aprox 200 ml of bp in smaller reef octopus reactor on 100 g aquarium, and he have new few months old aquarium, without nitrates. That days I did not know why is that hapening because it was never hapened to me in various reactors at various aquarium. Now when I look back something in his reactor create bacterial bloom from the start, small quantity, slow flow, no nitrates in aquarium.

Acording to my expirience and from the information from this forum where there are people who have succes with bp, people who do not have succes, someone who have bacterial bloom and someone who dont I dont see strong conection what will proof that particular efects of bio pellets are due to strong flow, weak flow, high nitrates, low nitrates, smaller quantity, biger quantity... I just dont see that because there are diferent efects of bp in diferent aquarium who use almost the same quantity or flow or nitrates.

There must be something else

[StarF]

After 3 days i had a bacteria bloom, i guess it means its working ?

[bluereefs]

Originally Posted by StarF

After 3 days i had a bacteria bloom, i guess it means its working ?

Can you please tell us how many bp you used, what was the flow throu reactor and do you have high or low nitrates.
Bacterial bloom cloudy your aquarium a loot or only a small hint of cloudiness?

[DJREEF]

Originally Posted by stevedola

Ill explain a little further,

On my fathers tank which was covered in HA the reactor (posban 150 w/500ml NP) was being driven by a maxi 1200. The tumble was minimal but it was tumbling. WIthin 6 wks the HA was 100% GONE! but the pellets had stopped tumbling which everyone told me was bad since they had to be movement for them to work properly. Ordered a bigger pump 396gph to help tumble the pellets. Installed and cranked it up. The pellets were flowing with good movement. Within 2 days the tank became cloudy and trates creeped up from udner 5 to under around 10. I turned down the reactor so it was just barely tumbling at the top and water cleared up within 2 days. Its been over a month and the trates are undetectable on the salifert kit and everything is great in the tank.

That's what I was thinking. Too high of flow, causes too great a disruption to the organisms in the reactor, and to the media itself. Imagine trying to live on a surface thats constantly banging into other surfaces. Can't be much fun.

It'd be like trying to grow ferns in a hurricane induced tsunami.

I picked up a bag of the Vertex version of bio pellets that I plan on floating in a coarse bag in a high flow area in my sump. I've got fish in there that I've had for 12 years, so I gotta be able to pull it quick if things start to look like they're beginning to go south.

I plan on gently rinsing the pellets in a bucket before I install them in the sump. I'm curious to see if anything ends up in the bucket water during this process.

I plan on doing a good sized water change before I place the bag in there. I'll also have 2 cone skimmers in the sump for aeration and export purposes, plus oodles of flow, so I think I'll be alright.


DJ

[StarF]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

Can you please tell us how many bp you used, what was the flow throu reactor and do you have high or low nitrates.
Bacterial bloom cloudy your aquarium a loot or only a small hint of cloudiness?

500ml to 530l main tank and 190l sump.. so probaly around 650L of water.
I had around 5-10 in no3 and 0 po4.. (hanna meter)
I have the 500ml in a zeovit magnetic filter medium, with a 1200l/h newjet.. i guess its pushing around 600/700l through the reactor a hour.. havent measured though.
Here is a photo