Saltmix Parameters bring on the test results

[jason2459]

[jason2459]

[jason2459]

[jason2459]

I want to write some things up and will probably do it mainly in my big 3 shootout thread as its more related to it and looks into the reliability of ICP testing and RedSea Mg test kit or potential lack thereof of both.

[jason2459]

Aquaforest was still extremely low in S and it's most definitely not testing error. Both their Reef and Sea branded salts were low. Only salts I would not use at this point besides those with organics would be the Aquaforest Reef and Sea salts due to that.

There are many other oddities but I have a much better understanding now between getting all these back, my testing, and talking with Carl from ENC Labs. When I have a chance I will recap this.

But overall I feel the list is showing a good average of what one can expect to see in a salt brand and useful to compare.

[bif24701]

Just browsing some of these I've noticed that several salts tested levels of AL seems to be at the levels that many have been claiming MarinePure had leached into there water. See this it tells me that the AL levels they are getting could be coming directly from the salt they are using. What do you think Jason?


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[jason2459]

Originally Posted by bif24701

Just browsing some of these I've noticed that several salts tested levels of AL seems to be at the levels that many have been claiming MarinePure had leached into there water. See this it tells me that the AL levels they are getting could be coming directly from the salt they are using. What do you think Jason?


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The Al tested in these salts is much less then whats tested after adding the blocks.

Al in new salt mix seems to come in at around 2ug/l if it shows up.

My tank at one month with marine pure block in tested I believe 19ug/l and around 3 months around 90-100ug/l

Let me screen shot my tank results.

[bertoni]

Okay, I'm sticking this thread, too.

[jason2459]

Wow and thanks again! I really hope it helps others as that's what this thread is all mainly for. Really it does very little for me but I have learned a lot through all of this so there is that personal gain.

[bertoni]

Thank you for getting all this information together. I'd like to convert the basic parameters into a chart like the one in the sticky note at some point, but I've been busy and not feeling all that well for a while.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by bertoni

Thank you for getting all this information together. I'd like to convert the basic parameters into a chart like the one in the sticky note at some point, but I've been busy and not feeling all that well for a while.

Very sorry to hear that about the health. I've been wanting to get to it too but have had several things working against me between work, family, and like a dog with ADD keep getting side tracked with many other fun things when my limited time permits me to do something I want to do.

[tompot]

Morning Jason. Thanks for posting all of the ICP test results, they do make very interesting reading. There appears to be some data duplication in the third Aquavitro Salinity column, from the ‘I-group’ down. Would it be possible to check the numbers and update, if appropriate?

Since there are no results for RedSea Sea Salt (blue bucket) in the table, I have included the following Triton ICP results which were taken from previous 22kg buckets used for water changes.

Heavy Metals
Mercury______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Selenium _____0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Cadmium_____0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Tin __________0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Antimony_____0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Arsenic_______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Aluminium____0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______8.83 µg/l
Lead_________0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Titanium______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Copper_______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Macro Elements
Sodium_____9785.00 mg/l__10753.00 mg/l__10816.00 mg/l
Calcium_____435.20 mg/l____439.90 mg/l____429.40 mg/l
Magnesium _1254.00 mg/l___1312.00 mg/l___1274.00 mg/l
Potassium___390.90 mg/l____418.00 mg/l____415.60 mg/l
Bromine_____58.09 mg/l_____43.69 mg/l_____53.19 mg/l
Boron________2.42 mg/l______2.52 mg/l______2.53 mg/l
Strontium____10.93 mg/l_____12.84 mg/l_____10.90 mg/l
Sulphur _____910.10 mg/l____990.70 mg/l____934.50 mg/l
Li-Group
Lithium_____171.10 µg/l_____203.30 µg/l____201.00 µg/l
Nickel _______10.33 µg/l______ 6.19 µg/l______3.76 µg/l
Molybdenum _15.88 µg/l______12.53 µg/l_____13.45 µg/l
I-Group
Vanadium_____1.01 µg/l_______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Zinc__________3.70 µg/l_______0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l
Manganese___31.81 µg/l______ 91.53 µg/l____ 116.80 µg/l
Iodine _______69.92 µg/l______ 45.56 µg/l_____67.61 µg/l
Fe-Group
Chromium_____0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l_______0.00 µg/l
Cobalt ________0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l_______0.00 µg/l
Iron __________0.00 µg/l______1.30 µg/l_______2.59 µg/l
Ba-Group
Barium_______126.10 µg/l____134.30 µg/l_____121.80 µg/l
Si-Group
Silicon ________0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l_______12.21 µg/l
Nutrient-Group
Phosphorus____0.00 µg/l______0.00 µg/l_______2.70 µg/l
Phosphate_____0.000 mg/l____0.000 mg/l_____0.008 mg/l

Apology for the extra work Jason.

Regards

[jason2459]

I will definitely double check and thanks for the additions. I'm more then happy to have anyone look over the results for improvement.

[jason2459]

Corrected

[jason2459]

Copy pasting what I feel are relevant posts into this thread. Hope you don't mind Randy as one of the quotes is yours.

Originally Posted by jason2459, post: 3273766, member: 56516

Thanks!

I too found variations between Triton and Aquaforest.
http://*********.com/threads/saltmix...esults.233233/


It's not surprising though and I wouldn't be as concerned about those differences but understand we don't know what methods they use to perform the ICP-OES analysis so its hard to trust either of them for anywhere near 100% Accuracy. But both can be useful to give an indication of certain parameters and trends.

Originally Posted by jason2459, post: 3273803, member: 56516

Semantics. Method is a very broad word and can apply to the methodology of how they perform the tests, calibration as you point out, and maintenance.

I believe its more then just calibration as that could be one thing. Seawater is also very complex and if the testing is done for all elements at once will not be nearly as accurate as testing for individual elements at a time. And even then ICP-OES isn't perfect for seawater. It also changes time and costs to get results depending on how the tests are performed.

According to another source ICP-OES is OK for the major ions in seawater but worse for the minor and terrible for the trace. ICP-MS would be better and even it has a hard time with the trace elements. And AA may be even better.

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley, post: 3274043, member: 45227

ICP-OES (or AES) can be complicated to interpret.

I have run it myself on my own (well, my company's) machine. There is not always just a single answer from a single run of a single sample. I was doing it with much more careful oversight of the actual data than I'm sure any analysis company does, and this was my comment in one case:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-04/rhf/index.php

from it:

"For initial testing I chose to use as the "standard" a sample of artificial seawater that was mixed to an approximate salinity of S=35. I mixed a 44-gallon batch using Instant Ocean artificial salt mix and reverse osmosis/deionized (RO/DI) water to a conductivity of 52.7 mS/cm, and allowed it to settle for three weeks. I then proceeded to measure its calcium concentration by ICP-AES (inductively coupled plasma-atomic emission spectroscopy, an $80,000 analytical instrument. I was somewhat disappointed with my inability to use this sophisticated technique to get a precise answer. Despite taking five different samples and analyzing them at eight different emission wavelengths using two different calibration methods (five standard additions of known calcium concentrations to each sample, as well as comparison to a fixed 1000 ppm commercial calcium standard), I was unable to get consistent values. Some of the samples were acidified or filtered through submicron filter membranes to determine if solid materials were impacting the result (they were not). Overall, I took more than 200 measurements, each involving three replicate observations of the emission intensity. Nevertheless, the result was not very satisfying, with a substantial variation occurring between the different values. The average of every measurement taken was 336 ppm. With the uncertainty involved, however, I'd conclude that the true value was probably 340 ± 40 ppm. I also measured the same sample once with a Salifert brand test kit and got 330 ppm calcium."

Originally Posted by jason2459, post: 3274072, member: 56516

From my communication with Triton they test the sample 7 times.

Also, they do not acid wash the vials they send to have samples collected. They claim they don't as acid washing the vials will cause interference with some readings like Iodine.

According to a 3rd party source acid washing is important to remove potential contamination and properly done and rinsed will not interfer with test results.

My guess is they don't to keep costs lower.

[RickBaker]

I have perused this thread with some humor, I have always had a problem getting a salt that would mix up with a DKH (hanna) over 8. I talked to the Fritz guys a while back and switched to their stuff, they GAURANTEED it would mix up over 8. It mixes up at 6, I find any manufacturer claims to be garbage whether it is in writing or in person. This thread also shows the claims of the manufacturers and yet........I've never EVER seen the DKH over 6 no matter what brand. I have yet to see any real world test of salt that I believed. I have decided at this point to go with the cheapest salt available from the LFS, i.e., what's on sale. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by RickBaker

I have perused this thread with some humor, I have always had a problem getting a salt that would mix up with a DKH (hanna) over 8. I talked to the Fritz guys a while back and switched to their stuff, they GAURANTEED it would mix up over 8. It mixes up at 6, I find any manufacturer claims to be garbage whether it is in writing or in person. This thread also shows the claims of the manufacturers and yet........I've never EVER seen the DKH over 6 no matter what brand. I have yet to see any real world test of salt that I believed. I have decided at this point to go with the cheapest salt available from the LFS, i.e., what's on sale. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

I've never seen a salt mix up that low. If you're getting that low there's a multitude things that could be going wrong. Number one is probably user error to be honest.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by rtparty

I've never seen a salt mix up that low.

I have but to be fair its not meant to be used for water changes. Triton's Pure @ ~1dkh

[rtparty]

Originally Posted by jason2459

I have but to be fair its not meant to be used for water changes. Triton's Pure @ ~1dkh

Never used it. To say NONE of the big names mix up over 6dkh is a little out there. Thousands upon thousands of reefers can attest otherwise

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by rtparty

Never used it. To say NONE of the big names mix up over 6dkh is a little out there. Thousands upon thousands of reefers can attest otherwise

Oh I agree. I think the lowest saltmix alkalinity I've tested is Tropic Marine Pro and Aquaforest Probiotic with both being around 7dkh.

[tvu]

Agreed. Never seen anything lower than 8 dkh. IO, RC, AF, RSC and Fritz with Fritz being lowest.


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[tompot]

Morning Jason. Sorry to be a pain, but are you sure the correction has been made? I may not have explained the potential error very well in the previous post.
The elements in question are; Lithium, Nickel, Molybdenum, Vanadium, Zinc, Manganese, Iodine, Chromium, Cobalt, Iron, Barium, Beryllium, Silicon, Phosphorus and Phosphate – all from column ‘M’ AquaVitro Salinity 09/20/2016 (Triton ICP) and column ‘N’ AquaVitro Salinity 09/20/2016 (AquaForest ICP).
I find it difficult to accept that two different ICP test results have returned identical values for more than a dozen minor/trace elements, but I suppose it could be possible.

Thanks again for all the good work and I apologise again for taking up any more of your time.

Regards

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by tompot

Morning Jason. Sorry to be a pain, but are you sure the correction has been made? I may not have explained the potential error very well in the previous post.
The elements in question are; Lithium, Nickel, Molybdenum, Vanadium, Zinc, Manganese, Iodine, Chromium, Cobalt, Iron, Barium, Beryllium, Silicon, Phosphorus and Phosphate – all from column ‘M’ AquaVitro Salinity 09/20/2016 (Triton ICP) and column ‘N’ AquaVitro Salinity 09/20/2016 (AquaForest ICP).
I find it difficult to accept that two different ICP test results have returned identical values for more than a dozen minor/trace elements, but I suppose it could be possible.

Thanks again for all the good work and I apologise again for taking up any more of your time.

Regards

Not a problem at all and you are right. I don't know what happen there. I know for a fact I updated all those. I will look again.

[BigRedSpecial]

Thank you for all the work you put into this amazing thread!

I've used Seachem ReefSalt for years and just today ordered another bucket. Thanks to this thread I'm thinking my next bucket will be Red Sea Coral Pro (based mostly on availability). The Reef Salt has served me well, but that boron reading troubles me, and I'm thinking the complete lack of silicates and iron would hurt my desirable sponges and macros, no? or would feeding provide enough?

[bertoni]

The sponges might do better with some silicate, but you can make a supplement from waterglass, if you're interested. That's what I did. I could locate the formula fairly quickly, I think.