Ich POLL!

[ocellaris123]

Originally Posted by reefmusic

Except (according to http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Oodinium.html) marine oodinium doesn't

I don't see what your trying to say?

[reefmusic]

Originally Posted by ocellaris123

I don't see what your trying to say?

Just that people don't report having velvet, because it doesn't look like velvet in marine fish. That leaves them believing the fish have ich, and hence the reports saying "ich wiped out my tank"

[djze]

it's funny how some people in this hobby seem to know it all about other peoples tanks without physically ever checking them out they make there own assumptions without physical proof those same people are the ones claiming there tanks are run free of ich it's obvious that they must not have true valuable experience with the subject because the true experienced hobbiests are the ones that have been in this hobby now for a couple of years running a system with ich & most important keeping it under control & not letting it get the best of them

[gwhunter]

I beleive that ich can be present in all systems without issue as long as stress is kept to a minimum. I feel that copper, if kept at high enough levels for long enough is effective to eliminate ich completely and as long as it isn't reintroduced via contaminated equipment or new addition(both fish and corals). I've not followed qt rules in the past and ended up treating the dt in most cases since the size of the fish was too large. I have also noticed how fast the symptoms disappear with improved diet and water quality. In my reef I'd say the cleaner shrimp keep the pests at bay very well. In contrast my large fowlr seems to be an up hill battle due to the aggressive nature of the inhabitants. I feel the cleaner shrimp would work equally well in that tank but the current fish would eat the cleaners before they hit the bottom. I've tried cleaner wrasse in the past with mixed results. I notice the cleaners seem to nip at the fish and irritate them more than help. My solution was to remove all but three pieces of rock and treat the dt with cumpamine and prazi. I treated for 10 weeks and noticed there appetite decline( I began supplementing garlic and then Selcon). I now setup a 40 breeder with a hot magnum and penguin bio wheel , bare bottom with several pvc fittings. I run the copper at .05 and all new additions spend at least 8 wks in there first.

So to recap, I believe that ich is present in most systems and only rears it's ugly head when stress is high. But I believe that ich can be eliminated completely with persistant treatment. There's alot to be said for correct id of other parasites( as others have said).

Matt

[Philosophos]

Forgive my newbieness, but I think this poll should have "I don't know", "probably" and "probably not" as possible answers. How many of us have actually looked through a good study, with comprehension of what good controls look like, to find the 100% mortality rate of ich? How many of us know the rate of genetic mutation, and the possible difference in adaptation between wild marine ich and what may be living in a tank with any amount of adaptation to survive one method or other? How many of us even know that these are some of the questions that we need to be asking ourselves? How many of us have even answered these few questions for ourselves?

I'll be honest, I have no clue if I have ich in my tank or not. The prevalence I have heard would lead me to believe that I most probably do, but I haven't seen any yet. How many people without symptoms of ich sit around with a microscope looking for it though? How many of us even have a microscope?

If I've learned anything from the FW side of the hobby, it's fairly similar to THEDLO's post on page one. Getting rid of the problem means a sound dose of critical thinking, and an honest opinion that admits it's own ignorance, rather than applying faith to our fish tanks.

[syrinx]

Nail hit on head! I hoped when I saw the nick philosophos, that this would be the type of comment. This is the main point I was trying to make to the people with the "ich free tank" are going on the faith of science, rather than the absolute knowledge of what is actual status of the tank. There is no way to scientifically know if a tank is clean, only that you have done your best to minimise the risk.

[Sk8r]

Actually, marine scientists have spent quite a bit of time establishing the life cycle of this parasite, and determining its max survival range under certain circumstances and constraints, as reported in the sticky above. The most common reason, imho, for having ich in the tank---is user error. Certain fish sellers do their own quarantine, which, unfortunately, is often used by some hobbyists to proclaim that they have consistently not qt'ed and have not gotten ich. This is largely, imho, because someone has been doing it for them.

[syrinx]

Agreed- we know the life cycle under certain lab circumstances- which are not how we keep fish. There is no question that it is user error for it to be in a tank- however the chemicals we use are not 100% for reasons both known and unknown to us. The point I and I believe philos is making, is that there is no way to know for certain if a fully stocked reef tank has ich in it or not. I do know of people here that did have a fallow tank for 10 weeks- with the fish in all the regular treatments while tank was fallow- and yet now have a outbreak a few years later after losing power in the last round of storms. Point remains- thinking your tank is ich free is a leap of faith, although not as large of a leap as those that don`t QT.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Actually, marine scientists have spent quite a bit of time establishing the life cycle of this parasite, and determining its max survival range under certain circumstances and constraints, as reported in the sticky above. The most common reason, imho, for having ich in the tank---is user error. Certain fish sellers do their own quarantine, which, unfortunately, is often used by some hobbyists to proclaim that they have consistently not qt'ed and have not gotten ich. This is largely, imho, because someone has been doing it for them.

I agree. Despite warnings to use QT in every basic book ever written for SW Hobbyists; I don't think the majority of hobbyists take it seriously---until the inevitable happens. I just don't get it; a basic QT system costs less than one moderately priced fish and really isn't that much extra work. I think its as much being in a hurry to see the new fish in the DT as anything.

[jk1138]

I voted no, but I am thinking in terms of visible ich.

[Philosophos]

Sk8r, I would be surprised if there weren't studies on marine ich; any disease that can impact fish farming pops up as a subject of study. What I question is how many hobbyists actually read that study? The sticky from Snorvich may be very useful in treating the disease, but it definitely isn't sourced to any academic research. If it were, I would not suspect the average hobbyist would read the sourced material.

My comments regarding alternative answers were more about the option to be honest about what we don't know. At very least, regardless of personal belief, we should all be on the same page that faith isn't part of science. Offering only 'yes' or 'no' caters strictly to the absolute knowledge claim of faith; it is not scientific. Most of the time I wouldn't care, but in this case the OP brought the issue up almost immediately; it's a major topic within the thread.

[RBU1]

Here is the perfect QT setup for anyone in NJ....Plus the seller is an awesome person.,....

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1994218

[Phishguy]

When I got a yellow tang a few tees back, it had been in the lfs for a few weeks and was seeming to do well so I figured it was a safe bet. I didn't qt because I thought I was safe having seen it several times Orr a few weeks. After 24 hours it was covered in ich. I panicked and pretty much destroyed my tank trying to remove it. My foxface went berserk and I lost my flame angel. I got the tang and put it in qt, but it was too late. Lfs gave me credit since my params were fine.
Last week, I bought a powder blue tang. On day 3 it was showing ich. I didn't panic this time.. I bought herbtana and have been using it for 4 days. There are no more "visual" ich spots. I know it isn't eradicated but the tang is back to eating. Having a bit of an algea bloom from not skimming though. I'll have to run some carbon in a day or two to remove the herbtana so I can run my skimmer again. Foams like a rabid dog while the herbtana is in the tank... So we will see what happens long term but I'm glad I didn't panic like before.

[THEDLO]

Originally Posted by Phishguy

After 24 hours it was covered in ich. I panicked and pretty much destroyed my tank trying to remove it. My foxface went berserk and I lost my flame angel. I got the tang and put it in qt, but it was too late. Lfs gave me credit since my params were fine.

I feel that this is all too common; the hobbyists panics and ends up causing more damage to the system as a whole even tho his intentions were good. The issue is that the fish refuse to cooperate with us and avoid being caught at all costs I couldn't imagine how rough that must be on the body. and new fish are already distressed due to the change in environment and "room mates"

Sent from my HTC Aria using Tapatalk

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Phishguy

When I got a yellow tang a few tees back, it had been in the lfs for a few weeks and was seeming to do well so I figured it was a safe bet. I didn't qt because I thought I was safe having seen it several times Orr a few weeks. After 24 hours it was covered in ich. I panicked and pretty much destroyed my tank trying to remove it. My foxface went berserk and I lost my flame angel. I got the tang and put it in qt, but it was too late. Lfs gave me credit since my params were fine.
Last week, I bought a powder blue tang. On day 3 it was showing ich. I didn't panic this time.. I bought herbtana and have been using it for 4 days. There are no more "visual" ich spots. I know it isn't eradicated but the tang is back to eating. Having a bit of an algea bloom from not skimming though. I'll have to run some carbon in a day or two to remove the herbtana so I can run my skimmer again. Foams like a rabid dog while the herbtana is in the tank... So we will see what happens long term but I'm glad I didn't panic like before.

After the experience with the YT, you still didn't QT the PBT? I think ''day 3" may just be the brief time when the cysts aren't present on the fish. I've never heard anything, from any published authority, or any other "expert" that I trust, that any of the herbal remedies do anything.

[THEDLO]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

After the experience with the YT, you still didn't QT the PBT? I think ''day 3" may just be the brief time when the cysts aren't present on the fish. I've never heard anything, from any published authority, or any other "expert" that I trust, that any of the herbal remedies do anything.

placebo effect? lol

on a serious note it must help because its good for them and by relationship it probably boosts the immune system which helps fight diseases...just a thought, makes sense. not sure about garlic tho..

[syrinx]

It kills me when the length of time a fish has been in a petshop seems like a good sign to people. Longer it is in the shop- longer it has to contend with the parasite load of new arrivals.

[briankmarsh1980]

Originally Posted by syrinx

It kills me when the length of time a fish has been in a petshop seems like a good sign to people. Longer it is in the shop- longer it has to contend with the parasite load of new arrivals.

+1
The only thing I look for when buying a fish at the LFS is if it eats or not (besides diseases)

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by THEDLO

placebo effect? lol

on a serious note it must help because its good for them and by relationship it probably boosts the immune system which helps fight diseases...just a thought, makes sense. not sure about garlic tho..

A good immune system does help fight disease. But ich is a parasite, not a disease and I really don't know how much their immune system comes into play, if at all. Again, I'll stick with the published experts and they all say Herbal remedies do nothing. I'm afraid the Phishyguy is in for a real disaster.

[THEDLO]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

A good immune system does help fight disease. But ich is a parasite, not a disease and I really don't know how much their immune system comes into play, if at all. Again, I'll stick with the published experts and they all say Herbal remedies do nothing. I'm afraid the Phishyguy is in for a real disaster.

actually a fishes immune systems does help control parasites. its has been studied for the sake of fish farming etc, and studies showed that the immune system had several defenses once foreign pathogens were encountered. how ever these studies where not done on "reef" fish but on groupers and salmon etc. so im not going to say for sure that these same studies apply but while reading the article references were made that the response would, and should be the same across Teleosts (fish with tails that the upper and lower halves are about equal).

My theory: though tangs have a low mucus there immune system in theory should be more adaptive/aggressive then a grouper do to its susceptibility to anything that can pierce or latch onto the skin.

if i had the time and space i would experiment with 2 fish of the same type, id QT them separately and then place them into 2 different tanks, One with rocks (simulating a more natural environment e.g. our tanks) and normal qt with the standard pvc shelters. And then reintroduce crypt to see which last longer/lives. i feel that besides diet (sans the herbal remedies) surroundings have a big impact on how well the fish fights off the "intruder"

[THEDLO]

heres that article btw it explains pretty well how the immune system reacts to parasites. its a bit of a read but hey it is published and though, like i said above, none of these tests have been done on reef fish most of the results are valid.

http://www.idpublications.com/journa...MostDown_1.pdf

[vamaro]

I currently have a H-Tusk that has ick. I purchased him about 2 months ago. I put him in the QT for 5 weeks with Cuppmine and he ws spotless prior to moving him to my disply a few weeks ago. He has some ick again, not too bad but seems to be doing fine eating, etc. The ick does not seem to be getting worse. The other fish (Cross-Hatch triggers, Threadfin Snapper) seem fine.

I have also had ick on 3 other occasions:

Twice when "trying" to keep an achilles. On both occasions, the other fish also got a lot of ick. I removed the fish from my display, treated them in a QT.

Another time was when I purchased a cross-hatch. Once again, it spread to the other fish and I removed them to the QT.

On my prior occasions of ick, I was too scared to let the fish stay in my display and try to beat the ick. I always moved them to the QT.

However, this time I am letting the tusk stay in the display. If my other fish are fine, I am willing to give this a try. The tusk does not look nearly as bad as when I got him and had to QT him. When he was in the QT he was covered and breathing very hard. Now, he just has some ick on his fins, and a light area here and there on his body.

[THEDLO]

Originally Posted by vamaro

I currently have a H-Tusk that has ick. I purchased him about 2 months ago. I put him in the QT for 5 weeks with Cuppmine and he ws spotless prior to moving him to my disply a few weeks ago. He has some ick again, not too bad but seems to be doing fine eating, etc. The ick does not seem to be getting worse. The other fish (Cross-Hatch triggers, Threadfin Snapper) seem fine.

I have also had ick on 3 other occasions:

Twice when "trying" to keep an achilles. On both occasions, the other fish also got a lot of ick. I removed the fish from my display, treated them in a QT.

Another time was when I purchased a cross-hatch. Once again, it spread to the other fish and I removed them to the QT.

On my prior occasions of ick, I was too scared to let the fish stay in my display and take my chances that the fish would beat the ick.

However, this time I am letting the tusk stay in the display. If my other fish are fine, I am willing to give this a try. The tusk does not look nearly as bad as when I got him and had to QT him.

cool keep us posted!
also how was the aggression from the achilles towards the other fish? was he making everyone as miserable as he was?

[dianezoo]

I have never had ICk in my 90 g display tank I got dinos!! HOWEVER I moved some coral into my QT tank to save them from dinos. Three fish were added to that tank to quarenteen waiting for DT tank to be ready. and boom two of the fish got ick although very tiny to see very small green clown gobys but I'm faily sure it was ick just not positive. I think I saw some white spots. So since my Qt tank has coral I guess I need to move the damsil into another QT to leave this one fishless? Will the corals or hermits, snails be carriers of the ick cycle in any way or only fishes? Or can I treat this QT tank and be save to move things into my DT?. Since Iv never had ick in my QT I dont want to introduce it if I can avoid it. I have enough wrong with it right now.

[RBU1]

Well just an update on my end for those that are curious. I added the Scribbled angel last Friday and "knock on wood" not a single spot on him. The Achilles hybrid still has a few spots here and there but nothing major. No signs of rapid breathing and everyone is acting and eating normal. I will not be adding any more fish to the tank for a while to let things settle down.