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Unread 10/14/2006, 07:44 AM   #151
Roland Jacques
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1 I think the wing nut is to adjust the water level in the skimmer. loosen it move the Tee up or down and tighten it. never hread that its just a guess.

2. Its acrylic and yes acrylic is ozone safe.

3. Really I would not worry about the elbow. it is a weak point, but like mentioned before just don't pick it up form the output should last 20 years IMO. As far as crazing from vibration on a skimmer that almost impossible. Their are a number of skimmers that used this same acrylic output set up for many years with no such crazing. An overflow box would have a lot more stress, pressure, movement... on it than a skimmer output. Not to mention how UV light = causing crazing...

Im not sure what the mateiral is on the asm is. My point was that ASM is not acrylic, cell cast or exturded. 4 1/2" clear pvc is very thick about 1/4", picture it 1/16" that closer in color... to the ASM material.


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Unread 10/14/2006, 09:25 AM   #152
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Hey Roland,

I'm very familiar about the discussion over NW vs. Becketts. I was a huge proponent of becketts back in the day, but within the last couple of years, I've really veered toward the NW due to new information and technological advances in the NW camp.

Dwell time and contact time are gray areas, but I've formed my opinions on it and unless new research or information comes out, it won't be changing anytime soon.

I really wonder how well the Mesh wheel would hold up in a large skimmer pump such as a dart.

Peace,
John


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Unread 10/14/2006, 09:36 AM   #153
Roland Jacques
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Quote:
Originally posted by rufio173
Hey Roland,

The thing is that it really depends on your bioload at a certain point. I mean Peter Escobal claims that it takes up to 5-7 minutes to grab some proteins and this is independent of the number or volume of bubbles. It is simply time dependent, meaning that you have to have time to grab these proteins.

5-7 minutes doing what???? in his ideal skimmer. (I think this is what he was referring to) Or 5-7 minutes were a protein molecule is in CONSTANT contact with the air bubble? (not likely) the key word is constant.


I must also note that this is not entirely true, because if you were only producing 1 SCFH of air with a bioload greater than that one SCFH can handle (anecdotal info. would suggest 1 SCFH is more than sufficient for 10 gallons of saltwater that is well-stocked), then you will have those bubbles produced saturated with more easily adhered proteins and those proteins that take a long dwell time will be left to circulate back into the aquarium.

sorry, im not understanding this.

Another issue is whether those proteins that take a long time to adhere really matter... No one knows this of course.

In the end, if my protein skimmer is producing 1 SCFH per 10 gallons of water volume in my tank, I would rather flow the tank water more slowly through the skimmer at about 1 to 1.5X the tank volume per hour. The bigger the skimmer for a given tank volume, the longer the dwell time. My target dwell time is around 5 minutes, not many people can reach this based on the size of their tank and limits on the skimmer size. I think it does help though so for me, slow flow with adequate air input is my preferred choice.

Here is the problem.
The number 1 - 1.5 turns per hour. I think this too is based on "his ideal skimmer". when we apply this to all skimmer we missed the big picture. It ASSUMES way to many variables in. (in "his ideal skimmer" sure it might be the perfect mathematical number) I think this I a ok rule of thumb for a "normal" skimmer "good starting point" but that's all. The differances in his ideal skimmer and these skimmers is gigantic. So to me so is that rule of thumb is out heres why.

Peter Escobal assumed that best case skimmer has max 13% water to air ratio in the water state. He also assumed 1-.5mm air bubble size. none of these numbers are the case with a lot of skimmer, especially this one.

This BM skimmer has what looks like a 60-70% air to water ratio so from that alone you could reduce his dwell time 500% and still have the same overall contact between bubble and "protein"
5 minutes now = 1 minute.

Now if his ideal bubble size was .75mm and this one is lets say .35mm thats 100% smaller (actualy more math would be envoled to get a good number here it would actualy be closer to 200% more air) how much that would mean you could take 1 minute number and cut that number by half
now 1 minute = 30 seconds.

not done yet because the bubble stays in solution longer buy 30 %
now 30 second is = to 20 seconds.

so 5min of dwell/contact/hits CAN = 20 seconds or less in some skimmers. IMO


For example, based on your first example. The first one being 5 gallons of water in your skimmer with 20 SCFH and 100 gallon throughput, which gives you a 3 min dwell time. That's pretty good and will capture a lot of proteins... Now, you could easily skim 200 gallons (1SCFH/10 gallons) with that skimmer and keep the protein load pretty low.

Now, with the second example. The 5 gallons of skimmer volume and 100 SCFH with 500 gallon throughput, giving you a dwell time of 36 seconds. So, you could skim 1000 gallons (1SCFH/10 gallons) pretty adequately, but the protein load would be much higher than the first example, just because throughput time is just two fast and dwell time is so low. This may not be the idea situation for a lot of SPS, but may be great for a liverock/fish or even softy tank.


I think you missed a few things here. in actuality these 2 examples I gave you have the "exact" same dwell time/hits/contact time. while the water/protean in the first one is in there for 3 minutes (5 time longer than the second) the contact with a air bubble per molecule of protein is 5 xs less likely to occur. now in my mind this puts them sa equal. I no their are fluid dynamic im not considering. but I think they play a smaller factor.

I think this is the reason that Tunze 9000 series skimmers work as well as they do. ton of air no contact time to speak of




Just depends on how you want to skim and what exactly you are trying to keep in the tank. If you use carbon religiously or some other organic compound absorber than maybe this won't be an issue... actually, like I mentioned earlier, maybe there is no issue at all no matter how you are skimming. Personally, I like the reasoning behind example 1... keep dwell times high for maximal protein capture. If you want to do this via slower flows through the sump, then that's great, but I like keeping the sump high flow to keep detritus in suspension so that my skimmer can grab it all. So, that's why I think it would be great to have a recirc. model.

Those are my current thoughts on skimming. Hehe. It's confusing and I hope I haven't lost anyone in the discussion. In no way am I saying you can't have an amazing tank if you don't hit the "idea" parameters since like I've said before, no one really knows what longer dwell time really gets you beside grabbing the more tenacious proteins.

Peace,
John
Cool, stuff John. I wish I still had that Peter Escobal book. I really only glanced though it a few time years ago. but that would probable confuse me with '"facts"

Maybe Zephert well chime in. he seems to have a real good thought on the dwell time... issue. maybe if I use the magic words " Bar Aquatic Skimmers " and the words "stinks, sucks bad, trash" in the same sentence he well show up.

I to agree with you, i am a NW over Beckett person, for the same reasons you state and a few more. But if performance changes i to can change my mind on that. i think this skimmer is kind of the best of both worlds. the thread i was refering to was for the last 2 pages talking aboutthe Escobal infomation ? it is preety good, ill try to find you the link


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Last edited by Roland Jacques; 10/14/2006 at 10:13 AM.
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Unread 10/14/2006, 10:11 AM   #154
RGibson
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Quote:
Originally posted by rufio173
Hey Roland,

I'm very familiar about the discussion over NW vs. Becketts. I was a huge proponent of becketts back in the day, but within the last couple of years, I've really veered toward the NW due to new information and technological advances in the NW camp.

Dwell time and contact time are gray areas, but I've formed my opinions on it and unless new research or information comes out, it won't be changing anytime soon.

I really wonder how well the Mesh wheel would hold up in a large skimmer pump such as a dart.

Peace,
John
John i have been working with a beckett skimmer with a Iwaki MD55RLT pump for some time to increase the out put.The idea was to used only one beckett and have a pump no bigger than the MD55RLT .i have run many test and found it will do as good as a bubble king 200 external.The box for the beckett is only 5 1/2 high and 10 x10 in sq .The beckett is feed at the side of the box down low as it will go.What has made a big different is one 45 ell turn off to the side with a short 1 in pipe in the ell .I want to thank tom for the used of his BK skimmer for the tests.


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Unread 10/14/2006, 10:22 AM   #155
Roland Jacques
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RGibson
How do you determine they perform the same???

Here the thread look where zephert comes in

NW vs Beckett
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...52#post8305752


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Unread 10/14/2006, 10:58 AM   #156
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The skimmers were run three days at time used the same tank and the waste was measured each time this test was run for 3 weeks .There was little different in the amount from each skimmer.The bubble cleaning system was turn off on the beckett as running it would give the beckett a unfair advantage over the BK.


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Unread 10/14/2006, 11:02 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by rufio173
Hey Roland,

I really wonder how well the Mesh wheel would hold up in a large skimmer pump such as a dart.

Peace,
John
John we will soon find out. I am in the process of finishing a dart mesh wheel skimmer as we speak. I am plumbing it up right now so that I can seal the top of the box!

Mike


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Unread 10/14/2006, 11:47 AM   #158
Roland Jacques
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RGibson
It would be good if you could compare skimmate volume with the water evaporated.

IMO it way hard if not impossable to compare those different skimmers with a side by side on the same tank at the same time. NW with an NW side by side in the same sump at the same time sure. but i dont no how you compare beckett with nw on a live system side by side at the same time, going by skimmate.

how would you plumb them and not give a advantage to one over the other they both work in such different ways.
i think the way to compare them would be each on thier own identical system. then weight your dry skimmate over time. most of the time you run both on one system the beckett pulls more than twice the skimmate as nw but the nw is darker and smellier.

this is better posted in that other thread.

Mike,
have you started your thread on this pump yet?


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Unread 10/14/2006, 12:50 PM   #159
RGibson
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Each skimmer was tested by it self for three days at a time and the food for the tank was the same for each test and skimmate was dark for the two skimmers. You see Roland NW Becketts are not as far a part as you would think.Have a good day.


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Unread 10/14/2006, 01:35 PM   #160
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I never said becketts were old and lost its lustre.
I am tired of the electric bill,noise, and my fans running all the time because my tank is 83-4 degrees with a iwaki 70 rlt on it.
I lost 4 degrees since i turned my iwaki off.
Other than that i loved my mrc skimmer.


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Unread 10/14/2006, 02:17 PM   #161
RGibson
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Creetin one of things that i work on was to show that a large pump like the iwaki 70 pump was not need to make a beckett work well .On my own skimmer which is 36 in tall has a 8 in dia riser and a 12 in dia collection cup is that it could be 5 in lower with out hurting the out put of the skimmer And that just one beckett can run a large skimmer with room to spare.


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Unread 10/14/2006, 07:22 PM   #162
smjtkj
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roland Jacques
RGibson

Mike,
have you started your thread on this pump yet?
I did not start the thread yet. I have been fooling with the skimmer and internal plumbing. The pump is ready to go. I built the venturi today. I don't know if I will keep it or use an Alita to push it. Would it be appropriate to post pics of the dart threadwheel and the new skimmer body on this thread?

Mike


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Unread 10/14/2006, 07:39 PM   #163
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what's the footprint of the 200 and the 250...?

e+f


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Unread 10/14/2006, 08:33 PM   #164
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Roland, Here is a link to the new threadwheel skimmer!http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=950690


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Unread 10/14/2006, 08:38 PM   #165
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Double post


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Unread 10/15/2006, 04:54 AM   #166
eastcoaster1
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Flint & Eric

Per ReefGeek:

ATI Bubble Master 150 Protein Skimmer ~ $359 (Up to 100 Gallons) - Approximately: 7" x 7" x 18"
ATI Bubble Master 200 Protein Skimmer ~ $459 (Up to 250 Gallons) - Approximately: 14" x 11" x 19"
ATI Bubble Master 250 Protein Skimmer ~ $699 (Up to 500 Gallons) - Approximately: 15" x 12" x 22"


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Unread 10/15/2006, 05:02 AM   #167
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Not sure if someone already posted this link or not but there is a pretty good discussion about the ATI skimmers at zeovit.com.
Around page 10 Oliver Pritzel (owerner?/president? of ATI) answers questions about the pumps used for the north american market.
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6552


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Unread 10/15/2006, 07:10 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by eastcoaster1
Flint & Eric

Per ReefGeek:

ATI Bubble Master 150 Protein Skimmer ~ $359 (Up to 100 Gallons) - Approximately: 7" x 7" x 18"
ATI Bubble Master 200 Protein Skimmer ~ $459 (Up to 250 Gallons) - Approximately: 14" x 11" x 19"
ATI Bubble Master 250 Protein Skimmer ~ $699 (Up to 500 Gallons) - Approximately: 15" x 12" x 22"
Approximately, we have some real numbers on measurements for the 250

ATI Bubble Master 250 Protein Skimmer ~ $699 (Up to 500 per reef Geek 780 Gallons Per ATI) -
Approximately (closer): 15" x 9 1/2" x 20 1/2" on singel pump unit new twin pump???

heres the same link from page ""1"". Anybody got any New links?
Quote:
Originally posted by law086
Here's a link I recently found with some pictures.

Ron
Has anybody got a demension on the neck diameter.


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Unread 10/15/2006, 08:22 AM   #169
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Pump Noise volume?


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Unread 10/15/2006, 11:42 AM   #170
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Hi,

Quote:
Has anybody got a demension on the neck diameter.
I`m sure the diameter of the neck gave the Bubblemaster his name. So should the BM150 have a diameter of 150mm (millimeter) the BM200 a diameter of 200mm and so on.
The new Bubblemaster come to the US with 2 pumps with a powerconsumption of 27-30W each. As far as I know will the water outlet specially for the US (120V/60Hz) -market adjustable by a "tube in tube"-System. You can lift or lower the wateroutlet for your needs. This is an adavantage, if your are using a one-chamber sump. The waterlevel in the bubblemaster is independent from waterlevel in the sump!
These are my latest informations directly from Oliver Pritzel.

I hope, this will help you, while you are waiting for the BM


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Unread 10/15/2006, 12:35 PM   #171
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f+e,

You never answered my pm, so I don't know why I should answer your question now, but there might be others who are wondering, so here's the most accurate dimensions of the footprints of all three skimmers according to Greg at RG....

ATI Bubble Master 150 Protein Skimmer - Dimensions: 7.5" x 6.4" x 20.5"
ATI Bubble Master 200 Protein Skimmer - Dimensions: 13.8" x 8.6" x 18.9"
ATI Bubble Master 250 Protein Skimmer - Dimensions: 15.0" x 9.5" x 21.7"


OH AND BTW...

Before anyone asks a question, please review the entire thread first, more often than not, your question will have already been answered. This should be policy for all threads, because this very question about footprints was answered on the bottom of page 5. Thanks.


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Unread 10/15/2006, 12:39 PM   #172
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Thank you Vollekanne, I would like to have one but nobody has given me exact dimensions on the 250. Everybody has said, that they think it will be this or that. Do you know exactly what they will be on the 250?

Thanks Keith.


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Unread 10/15/2006, 01:10 PM   #173
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Hello Keith,
I found this on the website ofr ATI:

"Q: Which size does the Bubblemaster 250 have?
A: The actual sizes of the Bubblemaster 250 are:
baseplate: 38 x 24cm
Height: 53cm
Waterlevel: 20 - 25cm
Handling height: 57cm

All other statements of ATI in other forums says the same. Please don`t force me to translate it into inch. It is hard enough to translate it in English
The base has not changed since the first bubblemaster, but the height.
When the height above is not correct, its lower, because ATI changed the height to take care of the handling height in smaller sumps.
I will try to collect more infos tomorrow.


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Unread 10/15/2006, 01:47 PM   #174
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Baseplate 15 x 9.4
Height 20.9
Waterlevel 7.9 - 9.8
in inches or course.
Thanks Vollekanne


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Unread 10/15/2006, 02:50 PM   #175
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ha ha, thanks for translating, time to adopt metric system in the US already.


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