Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

You bring up a great point, Darth_Tater. The slower growing macros are also a good match for low nutrient, SPS tanks. Conversely, the fast growers like ulva, caulerpa and chaeto, not so much. In low nutrient water, they tend to gradually shrink and disappear. That's probably why you hear of so many reefers having trouble with chaeto.

You may be right about dosing to keep multiple macros happy. I dose potassium nitrate and iron pretty consistently. Lately, I'm between batches of potassium nitrate, so I've been dosing ammonia! I would not recommend doing that without a large tank and a large plant population, but it is seagrass' preferred form of nitrogen.

Thank you for the complements on the tank! I'm digging the sponges as well. I just wish they were easier to secure! Every time I try to transfer a fragment to a new place, it comes lose and then I have to track it down and try again.

[sam.basye]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

You bring up a great point, Darth_Tater. The slower growing macros are also a good match for low nutrient, SPS tanks. Conversely, the fast growers like ulva, caulerpa and chaeto, not so much. In low nutrient water, they tend to gradually shrink and disappear. That's probably why you hear of so many reefers having trouble with chaeto.

You may be right about dosing to keep multiple macros happy. I dose potassium nitrate and iron pretty consistently. Lately, I'm between batches of potassium nitrate, so I've been dosing ammonia! I would not recommend doing that without a large tank and a large plant population, but it is seagrass' preferred form of nitrogen.

Thank you for the complements on the tank! I'm digging the sponges as well. I just wish they were easier to secure! Every time I try to transfer a fragment to a new place, it comes lose and then I have to track it down and try again.

Still got the CO² going as well?

[Michael Hoaster]

Yes, I still have CO2 going. Carbon is important, for plants.

It's great having a tank dedicated to plants! It gives me the space to dose and experiment, to see if I can encourage their good health.

[EdimarOliveira]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

It is difficult to combine macros with the most challenging small polyp stony corals. The reason for this is that their needs are so different. SPS like pristine, low-nutrient water, macros like nutrient-rich water. For this reason I think it's best to decide ahead of time what is your "pivotal species", or the plant or animal that is most important to you. Then you can optimize conditions for that species, and then see what other organisms can also do well in those conditions. My pivotal species is manatee grass.

Fortunately there is some overlap, with less demanding "lagoonal corals", that thrive in the same conditions as macros. At the other end of the scale, seagrasses outcompete macros in nature by surviving on lower nutrients than macros can. This makes them better suited to low nutrient SPS-type tanks. Just don't expect them to grow very fast. So, plants and corals can be combined in an aquarium, if you find the right combination.

Your idea of combining three different macros in three separate boxes should work fine. Just keep in mind that water conditions will be the same for all three. You can vary light levels and water movement in each box to suit different macros.

My question for you would be, why three boxes? Every box you add also adds complexity, work, and potential plumbing failures. I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read, but I'm a big fan of simplicity. Rather than hiding plants in a sump or inside a cabinet, I like EVERYTHING right there in the display. I don't even have a sump. You may find that you enjoy looking at the tanks in the cabinet more than the display tank. But that's just me. You may have very good reasons for having three separate zones for three separate algae. I'd love to hear more!

Michael, I love making my facilities and have certain talent for it. So I have ease in connecting and mounting systems. The idea of using three tanks (and can even connect another one) is why I have them ready tanks and can thus put together three different biotypes, perhaps with the same specimens. And each may have a specific lighting.

Then ask you what you think about it. I am also minimal and much manipulation think not suitable, leaving Mother Nature to act ...

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

It is difficult to combine macros with the most challenging small polyp stony corals. The reason for this is that their needs are so different. SPS like pristine, low-nutrient water, macros like nutrient-rich water. For this reason I think it's best to decide ahead of time what is your "pivotal species", or the plant or animal that is most important to you. Then you can optimize conditions for that species, and then see what other organisms can also do well in those conditions. My pivotal species is manatee grass.

Fortunately there is some overlap, with less demanding "lagoonal corals", that thrive in the same conditions as macros. At the other end of the scale, seagrasses outcompete macros in nature by surviving on lower nutrients than macros can. This makes them better suited to low nutrient SPS-type tanks. Just don't expect them to grow very fast. So, plants and corals can be combined in an aquarium, if you find the right combination.



Your idea of combining three different macros in three separate boxes should work fine. Just keep in mind that water conditions will be the same for all three. You can vary light levels and water movement in each box to suit different macros.

My question for you would be, why three boxes? Every box you add also adds complexity, work, and potential plumbing failures. I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read, but I'm a big fan of simplicity. Rather than hiding plants in a sump or inside a cabinet, I like EVERYTHING right there in the display. I don't even have a sump. You may find that you enjoy looking at the tanks in the cabinet more than the display tank. But that's just me. You may have very good reasons for having three separate zones for three separate algae. I'd love to hear more!

Michael,
I have not heard the term "pivotal species" since reading John Tullock's book, "The Natural Reef Aquarium" in which he encouraged bio-theme tanks. Yours is a beautiful example of the concept.
With respect to the Brazilian hobbiest, your suggestion of slow growing sea grasses being compatiable with SPS was good advice. There are a few macros that would fit that niche as well: Red Grapes and Dragons Breath being two of them.

[Michael Hoaster]

I get it. Half the fun is building the system! This sounds like a fascinating project. You should start a build thread for it. I look forward to hearing more, about the concept, livestock, etc. It sounds very cool!

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Darth_Tater

I have a remote sump with a few different kinds of macros in it connected to a display with SPS in it and a very small bioload (I only empty my skimmer cup like once a month). The macros are all still green, but they are growing a vastly different rates. In my case, it's actually the slower growing ones that are growing well and the super fast growers (especially Ulva) are struggling and are looking like they might die off.

My personal opinion is that it would be really hard to get different species of Macro to grow well together without dosing NO3 and probably PO4 to remove the nutrient competition factor. I'm not sure how SPS would respond to that.

I'm now trying to remember if you're dosing those Michael, and if not then I've been proven wrong already!

By the way, tank is looking good and those sponges are pretty awesome!

Which specific green macros are the slow growers. Your observation on fast growing and slow growing macros responding to differrent nutrient levels coincides with an article that John Mahoney at Reef Cleaners wrote.

[Darth_Tater]

Caulerpa Paspaloides and Caulerpa Cupressoides are growing pretty well. Caulerpa Prolifera looks decent, but isn't really growing much. Ulva is green but disappearing. Chaeto isn't doing much of anything and looks pretty pale. And as always, the GHA is going nuts (although seems to be slowing)!

By the way, Caulerpa Paspaloides is very, very cool. I got it from Gulf Coast Ecosystems and it's one of my favorite plants (freshwater OR saltwater). They harvest it in Florida, so it would go well in the Caribbean Biotope!

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Darth_Tater

Caulerpa Paspaloides and Caulerpa Cupressoides are growing pretty well. Caulerpa Prolifera looks decent, but isn't really growing much. Ulva is green but disappearing. Chaeto isn't doing much of anything and looks pretty pale. And as always, the GHA is going nuts (although seems to be slowing)!

By the way, Caulerpa Paspaloides is very, very cool. I got it from Gulf Coast Ecosystems and it's one of my favorite plants (freshwater OR saltwater). They harvest it in Florida, so it would go well in the Caribbean Biotope!

Yes, Caulerpa Paspaloides is very cool with its lacy fern like leaves.

I would consider everyone of those macros to be fast growers. In John Mahonie's article on Reef Cleaners, Stocking a Refugium, he recommends fast growers, pulse growers and middle of the road growers.
Fast growers need nutrient levels high at all times to thrive and should be pruned regularly. Pulse growers can handle low nutrient levels with slow growth requiring little to no prunning.
Fast growers include all Caulerpa. Middle of the road include Dragons Breath and Red Grapes. Pulse growers include: Condium, Mermaid's Fan, Fauchae and Pink Galaxy.

Michael,
Mahonie included Manatee Grass and Oar Grass in the fast growing category. It would seem that the reason these could be included with SPS is that these plants get nutrients thru the root system and can thrive in low nutrient water.

[jraker]

Have you tried out the Berghias yet?

[Michael Hoaster]

Subsea, I have experimented with a few plant tabs, with some success, but nothing earth-shaking. I'm still looking for the right tab I think. From what I've read, manatee grass likes to get phosphate through their roots, and ammonia through their leaves.

[Michael Hoaster]

jraker, I have added the berghia nudibranchs. I got them in right before leaving town, so I have no idea how they're doing. They seemed like good healthy specimens. I got them from SaltyUnderground.com. They provided excellent service-highly recommended!

I expect them to do well. There are plenty of aiptasias for them! My only slight worry is predation by the fish. But since they are armored with stinging cells from the anemones, I think they'll be ok.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Subsea, I have experimented with a few plant tabs, with some success, but nothing earth-shaking. I'm still looking for the right tab I think. From what I've read, manatee grass likes to get phosphate through their roots, and ammonia through their leaves.

With respect to root assimilation of nutrients, I would have thought the sea grasses will take everything they can get through their roots and leaves. With respect to maro, the ratio of nitrogen to phosphorus is anywhere from 30-50:1.

In land plants nitrogen grows the leaves, potassium grows the fruit and phosphate grows the roots.

[Subsea]

Michael,

The following link started getting too detailed for me. On page 10 of the Discussion for the Seagrass Thalassa, leaves and roots both take up nitrogen and phosphorous.


http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/134/m134p195.pdf

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Subsea, that was a good read. It reinforces other stuff I've read. Basically, seagrasses take what they can get from their roots and leaves, depending on where nutrients are available. Most of the seagrass keepers I've spoken with focus on bulk water nutrients, since that's more controllable and measurable. I haven't given up on substrate fertilization yet though, so I'll keep trying different tabs, and report my findings.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Thanks Subsea, that was a good read. It reinforces other stuff I've read. Basically, seagrasses take what they can get from their roots and leaves, depending on where nutrients are available. Most of the seagrass keepers I've spoken with focus on bulk water nutrients, since that's more controllable and measurable. I haven't given up on substrate fertilization yet though, so I'll keep trying different tabs, and report my findings.

One advantage of nutrients thru sediments is that bulk water could be nutrient low, thereby supporting SPS.

[Subsea]

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/article...zers_intro.php

I found this link interesting. They recommend Jobes Plant Spikes for root fertilization. Also, when I had macro tested for dry weight content, potassium was a very high percentage.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?pcatid=4867

The flourish tabs looked interesting for micronutrients.

[EdimarOliveira]

Hi Michael!

The main function of DSB would assist in the removal of nitrate, correct? Then, a tank for the purpose of cultivating macroalgae it would be undesirable, correct? And use a plenum? Do you have any benefit?

I could not get this information in their initial posts, so the question: what is the height of your substrate? I would be a happy medium, that is, about 6 to 8 cm?

[collegereefs]

I believe the main purpose of the sand bed is to support the root structure of the seagrasses.

[Michael Hoaster]

Yes, Edimar, basically, the deep sand bed competes with the plants for nitrate, so is not needed for macros.

Welcome collegereefs! You are correct. Really, the only seagrass that needs a deep sand bed is the thalasia (turtle grass).

The shallow part of my sand bed varies between one and three inches. I don't think there would be a benefit to adding a plenum.

[Michael Hoaster]

I just returned from a two and a half week vacation. During that time, my tank was completely unattended. All fish are accounted for. As expected, the caulerpa really took off. The only real surprise was all the coralline algae on the front glass.

Here are a few pics, showing the tidying up I need to do:


Full tank shot. Sorry about the reflections.



Caulerpa gone wild. Also note the coralline algae spots.



Another bad pic, but you can see the caulerpa overhang. It extends about two-thirds across the tank!

I am now in the process of cleaning up/exporting. Will post "after" pics soon.

[StephenRU]

I'm interested in doing a similar thing in my tank, just have to buy some macro algae. I was just going to buy it off Gulf Coast Ecosystems. Any advice as far as purchasing before I take the plunge?

I was going to do the red sampler, the halimeda sampler, and some chaeto for the sump. Was thinking a photosynthetic gorg or 2.

Thanks
Steve

[Michael Hoaster]

Welcome StephenRU!

I bought the red sampler too. It's excellent. Halimeda needs supplemental calcium, like corals. So if you don't want to mess with that, skip halimeda. You don't really need chaeto in the sump, as it competes for nutrients, with your display plants. Are you avoiding the fast-growing caulerpas? They require more pruning, but they gobble up nutrients quickly, if something goes wrong, like a fish death or over dose. Gorgonians, even photosynthetic ones, require feeding, and are tough to keep alive long term. If you have success with them, please share your methods!

When I first set up my tank, I was keeping nutrients very low. All my macros gradually vanished. It wasn't until I had a decent fish load that they came back. Planted tanks are almost the opposite of reef tanks-instead of struggling to keep nutrients low, you struggle to keep them high enough!

I'd love to hear more! got a thread?

[StephenRU]

I honestly don't take enough pictures for a thread haha, but I'll post a pic or two once I get it underway here.

[OrQidz]

That last pic is amazing! It's like really being underwater out in nature. Very cool!