N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing) - Page 78

mal1099 · 07/13/2010, 07:53 PM

Hey Montrealreef have you noticed that you dont have to clean your glass as much. I have been using vertex pellets a little over a month and only have to scrap glass about 1 time every 7-10 days depending. I have 3 400watt halides over my 150 before the pellets i had to scrap every 2 days. I ran gfo before these pellets and the switch was the best choice i could have made.

montrealreef · 07/13/2010, 08:04 PM

Hi mal1099,

I have to clean my glass every 5 days or so. My tank gets a lot of sunlight. It is in my living room which has floor to ceiling windows facing south.I used to have to clean it every day and sometimes twice a day.

I used to dose vodka before I started using the pellets and i needed high doses to get my nutrient level down which seemed to fuel cyanobacteria.

I agree with you that these pellets are an extremely useful product! I'm so happy I did not give up on them.

ehutchby · 07/13/2010, 08:41 PM

I understand that the pellets physically disolve in the reactor. How long do they tend to last? A may be completly wrong. I'm trying to determine a round number to the annual costs. Many thanks..

daveonbass · 07/14/2010, 04:46 AM

as I understand it, the pellets by themselves do not disolve in the water...not enough to be classified as water soluable. BUT instead they get smaller over time from the bacteria eating them, hence the concept of being "solid vodka doseing". My pellets haven't changed size in three months of tumbleing in a reactor. So I would attest to them not disolving on their own...they require the bacteria to consume them.

...and since they get smaller through consumption, it stands to reason that they "dissolve" at different rates depending on how much they need to consume to battle the levels of N and P in different tanks. But most have said that they don't need replacing for at least 6 months and as much as 12 or more.

ehutchby · 07/14/2010, 06:59 AM

thanks dave. That makes a lot of sense.
BTW: Is anyone using a Bulk Reef Supply Dual reactor with the pellets?

MSHUR · 07/14/2010, 07:32 AM

Anyone who is using a filter sock notice that it gets clogged much faster? i have to replace mine every two days now and i use to do that every 4-5 days.
maybe i have to much pellets?

TheFishMan65 · 07/14/2010, 08:14 AM

From what I have read most people have removed the filter sock when using one of the many bio pellets products.

ChuckG · 07/14/2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anen

So what do you think I should do? Put gfo on the tank? Take the pellets off?

Before you do anything you want to be sure that they are dinos in the tank. If they start to form snotty strings and/or you start getting bubbles in them then it is likley dinos and you could be in for a difficult fight. Hard to say what action you should take as conditions are going to be different from case to case.. Best I can do is detail for you my case and you can make a determination if there are any similarities.

There are many ways to address these, most use high PH, higher if possible and light deprivation cycles. You want to dose beneficial bacteria to help out compete for any food source the dinos might be scavaging. In my experience though the dinos can bounce right back so long as the pellet reactor is still running. They seem to feed either directly on pellet material emiited from the reactor or bacteria that is sloughed off the pellets and ejected out of the reactor.

In my tank I had only a few acro frags, and a high fish load. The reactor kept up with my heavy fish feeding and I could never measure any PO4 or NO3 leading up to and after the arrival of the dinos. Even during my initial lights off period when the dinos all died off I could not measure NO3 or PO4. Even though my skimmer was well up to the the task and load, I think my problem was due to a lack of bio-diversity (corals and other filter type feeders) combined with a heavily active pellet reactor... more a little later.

In my experience these reactors are very efficient at what they do but they do not "slime" up. At least not to the point where you see bacterial strands bouncing around inside and/or ejecting from the reactor. You may get a few at the bottom inlet, but mostly the bacteria clings to the pellets and you can't discern them with the naked eye. What you can see though is all the material ejected from the reactor if you either direct the effluent into a clear glass of water or actually remove some pellets and rinse them in a clear glass of RO/DI water.

My point is that there is alot of material ejected from these reactors when they are active. In the absence of any real biological competition for the ejected material, a scavanger like dinoflagellites that does well in low phosphate, low nitrate, high carbon enviroments seems to flourish.

I eventually removed my pellet reactor during my second attempt to weaken the dinos with a 7 day lights out period. This made a tangible difference, but they still grew back in a few areas, albeit much slower and in fewer numbers. I theorise that they are still feeding on whatever leftover material was ejected from the reactor before I removed it.

My last ditch effort before I tear down the tank and sterilize it is to use Ultra AlgaeX by Fauna Marine. Says right on the bottle it is formualted to combat dinoflagellates. This is a very aggressive treatment though and anyone should do thier homework before taking this route. It can stress/kill other sensative corals and fish if you are not careful with the dosage. All my acro frags were previoously killed by dinos, and all my fish have been moved to quarantine so I can afford to be a little aggressive with this stuff. I am on my fourth dose of AlgaeX without having to turn out the lights and I contiune to feed the tank... it is working, albeit slowly. I can't say if it wil ultimatly work or not just yet though.

Too sum it all up... I think where I went wrong with my tank was having too many fish and not enough corals in combination with the pellet reactor. If I were to do it differently today I would build up filter feeding bio diveristy while slowly ramping up the fish load.

MSHUR · 07/14/2010, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

From what I have read most people have removed the filter sock when using one of the many bio pellets products.

hm... reason?

SeaIsle · 07/14/2010, 09:55 AM

I have been following along and am looking to run BPs. I currently run GFO (and carbon) in a TLF 550 but my understanding is that this reactor is not sufficient for the BP load of a 90g tank. I now need a reactor and pump. Can anyone recommend a reactor and pump combination on a 90g tank? I have been told to estimate 100gph per 100ml of BP, can anyone substantiate this estimate?

TheFishMan65 · 07/14/2010, 09:59 AM

The bacteria ejected from the bio pellet reactor clog up the sock to fast. Once in the sock (I am thinking) it will start to break down. That just returns P,N and C back to the tank. If it is still in circulation hopefully it will get eaten or get skimmed out.

MSHUR · 07/14/2010, 10:04 AM

i gues you right, but its so unfortunate since i like they way filter sock polish the water and keep it clean.. i will try to remove and see if my REDOX level goes up..

reef_doug · 07/14/2010, 10:22 AM

I use 200 micron filter socks. I've had the replace them daily instead of every 3-4 days as before. I like the way it polishes the water and will continue to use them.

MSHUR · 07/14/2010, 10:27 AM

everyday its PITA

i can do that too but its more work... I have about 15 socks that i reuse all the time..

TheFishMan65 · 07/14/2010, 10:28 AM

I haven't gotten these yet so I am mostly repeating what i have read. If you are willing to clean the sock then it should not be a problem. However, I have read numerous people say that the tank was clearer after they started the pellets. SO if you are willing to do it - an experiment might be to take the sock out for a week and see if you can tell the difference.

MSHUR · 07/14/2010, 10:31 AM

i might have to do that... or just chene it every day for a week or so..

MSHUR · 07/14/2010, 10:32 AM

I also notice skimmate is green insted of brown like i use to have

TheFishMan65 · 07/14/2010, 10:34 AM

Several reports of skimmate color change. But don't remember from what to where.

ehutchby · 07/14/2010, 01:17 PM

Other than the price, is there any references, threads to show the differences between the Bio Pellet Brands? I've been looking at the Vertex and NP brands.

Valas · 07/14/2010, 05:43 PM

I simply switched from 100 micron poly felt to mesh socks. Any slime that slips past the skimmer is able to slip through the mesh socks without clogging them. They are now just for larger particles, runaway members of the cleaning crew and micro bubble control.

MSHUR · 07/14/2010, 06:18 PM

I took sock out for a couple of days. will see if i notice any improvments in ORP level

reef_doug · 07/14/2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSHUR

I took sock out for a couple of days. will see if i notice any improvments in ORP level

If your concerned about ORP or oxygen levels, I would run a couple airstones in the display until it improves.

TheFishMan65 · 07/14/2010, 06:25 PM

ehutchbay, What is your criteria for picking one? In one of the thread Randy posted that certain plastic can be used and are much cheaper. Some WAMAS members actually got some of these "generics" in a group buy.

reefrad · 07/14/2010, 07:27 PM

sounds great! can you explain how your vertex reactor is modified?? can you aslo post a pic or 2?

thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by montrealreef

Hi All,

I just thought I should post a follow-up of my experience. I had posted a few months ago stating that the pellets were not working and that I was thinking of giving up on the pellets.

I'm happy to report that after months of frustration, my nitrates are undetectable and my phosphate level is 0.00 as per hanna phosphate checker. There is no visible hair algae or cyanobacteria. My corals are looking better each day and they seem to be utilizing Ca at twice the rate they used to before (I have had to double my dosing to keep up).

I don't know why it took so long for me to start seeing results but the pellets finally came through... I initially started with the pellets in a phosban 550 reactor which did not work great (kept clogging) so I switched to a modified vertex zeovit reactor about 10 weeks ago. I'm not sure that this is the reason.

Overall, I am very happy with this product!

cheers

ehutchby · 07/14/2010, 08:06 PM

TheFishman65, what are some criteria to think about? Great question.
I've reviewed the following.
1. Price per 500ml
2. Suggested amount of pellets to use per gallon.
3. I don't know, but I'd guess that the different pellets are possibly made with different ingrediants. One product may last longer than another.
Thoughts. Thanks for help.

07/13/2010, 07:53 PM	#1926
mal1099 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Everett Wa Posts: 244	Hey Montrealreef have you noticed that you dont have to clean your glass as much. I have been using vertex pellets a little over a month and only have to scrap glass about 1 time every 7-10 days depending. I have 3 400watt halides over my 150 before the pellets i had to scrap every 2 days. I ran gfo before these pellets and the switch was the best choice i could have made. Last edited by mal1099; 07/13/2010 at 07:53 PM. Reason: its filtered as i must have hit an extra s

07/14/2010, 04:46 AM	#1929
daveonbass Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: texarkana, TX Posts: 1,364	as I understand it, the pellets by themselves do not disolve in the water...not enough to be classified as water soluable. BUT instead they get smaller over time from the bacteria eating them, hence the concept of being "solid vodka doseing". My pellets haven't changed size in three months of tumbleing in a reactor. So I would attest to them not disolving on their own...they require the bacteria to consume them. ...and since they get smaller through consumption, it stands to reason that they "dissolve" at different rates depending on how much they need to consume to battle the levels of N and P in different tanks. But most have said that they don't need replacing for at least 6 months and as much as 12 or more. __________________ dave Current Tank Info: 58g reef, 60 total gallons including rocks and sand, 36" 6 bulb ATI Powermodule, DAS skimmer, Bio pellets, 2 MP10 vortechs

07/14/2010, 10:22 AM	#1938
reef_doug Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Hesperia/Apple Valley Posts: 3,814	I use 200 micron filter socks. I've had the replace them daily instead of every 3-4 days as before. I like the way it polishes the water and will continue to use them. __________________ "If you have more than one tank in your livingroom, you might be a reefneck" Current Tank Info: 180r SoCal Creations, 75g SCC1M Sump, WM EcoBAK, NextReef SMR1, TropicMarin Salt, ACIII, 3x250w HQI Phoenix 14k, 2x140w Super Actinics, ATi BM250, Eheim 1262, Tunze 2x6100+7095, Tunze Osmolator, 6 stage RODI w/ Spectrapure MaxCap

07/13/2010, 08:04 PM	#1927
montrealreef Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 217	Hi mal1099, I have to clean my glass every 5 days or so. My tank gets a lot of sunlight. It is in my living room which has floor to ceiling windows facing south.I used to have to clean it every day and sometimes twice a day. I used to dose vodka before I started using the pellets and i needed high doses to get my nutrient level down which seemed to fuel cyanobacteria. I agree with you that these pellets are an extremely useful product! I'm so happy I did not give up on them.

07/13/2010, 08:41 PM	#1928
ehutchby Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mooresville, NC Posts: 133	I understand that the pellets physically disolve in the reactor. How long do they tend to last? A may be completly wrong. I'm trying to determine a round number to the annual costs. Many thanks..

07/14/2010, 06:59 AM	#1930
ehutchby Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mooresville, NC Posts: 133	thanks dave. That makes a lot of sense. BTW: Is anyone using a Bulk Reef Supply Dual reactor with the pellets?

07/14/2010, 07:32 AM	#1931
MSHUR ugust 2011 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: brooklyn,ny Posts: 2,595	Anyone who is using a filter sock notice that it gets clogged much faster? i have to replace mine every two days now and i use to do that every 4-5 days. maybe i have to much pellets?

07/14/2010, 08:14 AM	#1932
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	From what I have read most people have removed the filter sock when using one of the many bio pellets products.

07/14/2010, 09:55 AM	#1935
SeaIsle Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: LI NY Posts: 168	I have been following along and am looking to run BPs. I currently run GFO (and carbon) in a TLF 550 but my understanding is that this reactor is not sufficient for the BP load of a 90g tank. I now need a reactor and pump. Can anyone recommend a reactor and pump combination on a 90g tank? I have been told to estimate 100gph per 100ml of BP, can anyone substantiate this estimate?

07/14/2010, 09:59 AM	#1936
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	The bacteria ejected from the bio pellet reactor clog up the sock to fast. Once in the sock (I am thinking) it will start to break down. That just returns P,N and C back to the tank. If it is still in circulation hopefully it will get eaten or get skimmed out.

07/14/2010, 10:04 AM	#1937
MSHUR ugust 2011 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: brooklyn,ny Posts: 2,595	i gues you right, but its so unfortunate since i like they way filter sock polish the water and keep it clean.. i will try to remove and see if my REDOX level goes up..

07/14/2010, 10:27 AM	#1939
MSHUR ugust 2011 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: brooklyn,ny Posts: 2,595	everyday its PITA i can do that too but its more work... I have about 15 socks that i reuse all the time..

07/14/2010, 10:28 AM	#1940
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	I haven't gotten these yet so I am mostly repeating what i have read. If you are willing to clean the sock then it should not be a problem. However, I have read numerous people say that the tank was clearer after they started the pellets. SO if you are willing to do it - an experiment might be to take the sock out for a week and see if you can tell the difference.

07/14/2010, 10:31 AM	#1941
MSHUR ugust 2011 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: brooklyn,ny Posts: 2,595	i might have to do that... or just chene it every day for a week or so..

07/14/2010, 10:32 AM	#1942
MSHUR ugust 2011 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: brooklyn,ny Posts: 2,595	I also notice skimmate is green insted of brown like i use to have

07/14/2010, 10:34 AM	#1943
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	Several reports of skimmate color change. But don't remember from what to where.

07/14/2010, 01:17 PM	#1944
ehutchby Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mooresville, NC Posts: 133	Other than the price, is there any references, threads to show the differences between the Bio Pellet Brands? I've been looking at the Vertex and NP brands.

07/14/2010, 05:43 PM	#1945
Valas Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 12	I simply switched from 100 micron poly felt to mesh socks. Any slime that slips past the skimmer is able to slip through the mesh socks without clogging them. They are now just for larger particles, runaway members of the cleaning crew and micro bubble control.

07/14/2010, 06:18 PM	#1946
MSHUR ugust 2011 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: brooklyn,ny Posts: 2,595	I took sock out for a couple of days. will see if i notice any improvments in ORP level

07/14/2010, 06:25 PM	#1948
TheFishMan65 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,618	ehutchbay, What is your criteria for picking one? In one of the thread Randy posted that certain plastic can be used and are much cheaper. Some WAMAS members actually got some of these "generics" in a group buy.

07/14/2010, 08:06 PM	#1950
ehutchby Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mooresville, NC Posts: 133	TheFishman65, what are some criteria to think about? Great question. I've reviewed the following. 1. Price per 500ml 2. Suggested amount of pellets to use per gallon. 3. I don't know, but I'd guess that the different pellets are possibly made with different ingrediants. One product may last longer than another. Thoughts. Thanks for help.