Wet Skimmate Water Changes?

[Elliott]

Originally Posted by Gregster

Just a question from a newbie here.
Is it possible that at any given time there is only so much skimmable organic matter in a system at a given time and in doing this concentrated waste/water change, what your seeing is just the same amount of skimmable organic waste as normal skimming produces with the exception that it is diluted by the extra water passing thru the protein skimmer due to it being dialed up?
ie; one spoon of instant tea can taint a lot of water.
I love the concept and have considered implementing it in a future system, but I can't seem to get past my thoughts on this being a possible illusion.
Maybe re-skimming the concentrated waste water again to remove the waste under normal duty thru the same skimmer might shed some insight as to what amount is really being removed compared to an average amount (same time duration) of standard duty skimming?

the concept here is simply to replace your most "dirty" water (skimmate) with fresh seawater

[Gregster]

Originally Posted by Elliott

the concept here is simply to replace your most "dirty" water (skimmate) with fresh seawater

For sure it is a cool set-up, and I understand the requirement to use saltwater to replenish with.
I was just trying to see what the benefits were to implementing this technique from a water quality perspective, because it appears to me that if a skimmer is properly running, it is removing waste already, so I can't understand the benefit/advatage of wet skimming a water change.

I'm not trying to put it down, just trying to understand.

-Greg.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The proposed advantage is that very wet skimming removes as much or hopefully more organic material as an ordinary water change plus the same skimmer set to a dryer skimmate. It cannot really remove less, if done properly, and the hope for more is reasonable. So it is just an "improved" way of doing water changes.

I discuss such issues with respect to wet skimming here:

What is Skimming?
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php

from it:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php#21

Wet vs. Dry Skimming



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Foam draining is a critical stage for most skimmers. One problem with drainage is that some organics are washed away with the draining water. There is always an equilibrium between organics in solution, and those actually attached to the interface. As water continues to drain, some of the organics are lost. Further, as some bubbles pop and their organics are redistributed into the nearby water, the local concentration of organics in the water between the bubbles in the foam can rise to concentrations far higher than are present in the aquarium. For this reason, the most effective skimming, in terms of total organic removal, comes from removing somewhat wet foam, rather than waiting for this same wet foam to drain prior to removal. The primary difference between wet foam, and drained dry foam, is that additional water and some organics have drained away. A dry form is more efficient in terms of the amount of organic removed in relation to the water volume, and all skimmers and their potential adjustments strike some balance between removing more water and slightly more organics, or less water and slightly fewer organics. Perhaps a careful analysis of different types of skimming will, in the future, show this expected result experimentally.

[Elliott]

lets compare the two

1. Convention water change: removes aquarium water and replaces it with fresh seawater

2. Wet skimmate water change: removes skimmate water and replaces it with fresh seawater


skimmate water has much more organics per unit volume than aquarium water, which is why wet skimmate water changes are more effective than conventional water changes at removing organics

[Gregster]

Thanks Randy and Elliot.
This gives me some things to ponder, and that's a good thing when we're talking reefs!
-Greg.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Happy reefing.

[the_dizzy52]

that's funny..doing the dishes ay?

[killagoby]

Originally Posted by spamreefnew

something must be wrong with my skimmer,,,,50 gallons in 12 hours!!!??!!! i am lucky if i get 50 ml in 12 hours lol

Yea, but he's got a 225 gallon tank. I can just imagine how big his skimmer is...

[seabayaquatic]

This method should be renamed the Lazy Man's Water Change. You'd get more detritus removal if you got off the couch and just vacuumed the sand!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In 14 years of reefing, I've never vacuumed sand once.

[JMBoehling]

Wet Skimmate water changes work best with a barebottom system where you keep all your detritus suspended with water flow, hence all is removed via filter sock or skimmate.. Works great for smart, lazy people

Jim

[justins13]

Is there a way to test if it actually has more DOC in the wet skimmate or if it just seems like it is getting more? Goes back to the teaspoon of dry tea "polluting" alot of water...

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally Posted by seabayaquatic

This method should be renamed the Lazy Man's Water Change. You'd get more detritus removal if you got off the couch and just vacuumed the sand!

I'm with Randy: I never vacuum the sandbed in a reef aquarium.

It's not because I'm lazy, either. My sandbed is loaded with valuable microfauna that vacuuming would remove.

[KafudaFish]

Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak

I'm with Randy: I never vacuum the sandbed in a reef aquarium.

It's not because I'm lazy, either. My sandbed is loaded with valuable microfauna that vacuuming would remove.

Do you leave the sandbed alone 100% of the time or do you manually disturbe it from time to time?
Also what are your recommendations for clean up crews?

Thanks.

[Gary Majchrzak]

debates on cleanup crews and stirring the sandbed are best left for another thread but routinely 'storming' the aquarium with a powerhead/pump to disturb/lift any settled detritus is a good idea IMO/IME.

Such a storming is very effective when done prior to (or during) a wet skim water change

[KafudaFish]

Ok thanks for the opinion. I have one too and don't see a disturbance as a bad thing in a reef since it is a natural phenomenon.

[reefdogg1107]

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

Ok thanks for the opinion. I have one too and don't see a disturbance as a bad thing in a reef since it is a natural phenomenon.

Wouldn't a "disturbance" be something like storming with a powerhead?? Vacuming in an aquarium is very different from a disturbance since you are removing these organisms from the aquarium. In the ocean fish and other animals are free to move where they want in order to find micro organisms, where as in your aquarium if you remove them they are unable to find them. JMO

[KafudaFish]

Originally Posted by reefdogg1107

Wouldn't a "disturbance" be something like storming with a powerhead?? Vacuming in an aquarium is very different from a disturbance since you are removing these organisms from the aquarium. In the ocean fish and other animals are free to move where they want in order to find micro organisms, where as in your aquarium if you remove them they are unable to find them. JMO

Yes I meant taking a PH and blasting the rocks and sand bed to help suspend the detritus in the water column and it eventually making it to the skimmer or filter sock etc.

As far as meiofauna they can be found in the sand at depths far greater than the average sand bed in our aquaria so how deep one goes is relative. Plus how many people clean their entire sandbed everytime?

Sorry to hijack and I won't disturbe this thread anymore.

[saltn07]

I never thought of using my skimmer like this, looking forward to trying it out

[waldomas]

If we were to run a skimmer on the "wet" side and empty, say... a half gal. of light tea colored skimmate each day (which would be less than the evaporation rate of the system), should we replace an equal amt. (equal to the skimmate that is) of new salt water, maybe everyother day or so? An ATO would be functioning as well.

[Elliott]

Originally Posted by waldomas

If we were to run a skimmer on the "wet" side and empty, say... a half gal. of light tea colored skimmate each day (which would be less than the evaporation rate of the system), should we replace an equal amt. (equal to the skimmate that is) of new salt water, maybe everyother day or so? An ATO would be functioning as well.

yes, however the ATO should be set up to automatically replenish the volume of skimmate removed from the system with fresh seawater

[waldomas]

Originally Posted by Elliott

yes, however the ATO should be set up to automatically replenish the volume of skimmate removed from the system with fresh seawater

Then how would you replace the evaporation?

[Elliott]

Originally Posted by waldomas

Then how would you replace the evaporation?

I have a separate reservoir of RO/DI water that is on a steady drip to estimate evaporative loss, if my salinity goes up I turn it up a bit and vice versa

[jeepguy242]

+1 on that, its easy enough to test salinity on a regualr basis, and adjust by adding more fresh ro, if needed

[duastina]

This is totally funny I've done this by accident a bunch of times where I turned my skimmer up too much because it wasn't doing anything then the next morning i have a flood on my floor even though it drains into a 5 gal bucket it still overflowed. Maybe it wasn't such a bad thing after all, need a bigger drain bucket though! LOL