AquaIllumination PAR Measurements - Page 8

drtrash · 09/21/2010, 07:24 AM

Is first set of # at 100% and the second set? Also would like to know what are the PAR #'s coming off the blue light. Will it be same at white?

CalmSeasQuest · 09/21/2010, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drtrash

Is first set of # at 100% and the second set? Also would like to know what are the PAR #'s coming off the blue light. Will it be same at white?

I *think* the first photos shows all LEDs at 100%, the second shows 40%W/60%B - but I'm sure JB will "illuminate" (sorry, couldn't resist

.)

As for PAR difference between the blues and whites, I don't have specifics, but as I recall the blues put out slightly less PAR. I measured blues running at 100% at 710 PAR @ 6". And that is Gen 2 AI's with only 8 blue LEDs. The new SOL blues will be about double that in blue power.

jonnybravo22 · 09/21/2010, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

I *think* the first photos shows all LEDs at 100%, the second shows 40%W/60%B - but I'm sure JB will "illuminate" (sorry, couldn't resist

.)

Correct. Higher numbers are the higher %s.

100% White 100% Blue

40% White 60% Blue

wesley6610 · 09/22/2010, 06:47 AM

Try raising the whites to 60% and blues to 80% and retest....or....you could keep them at 40/60 and lower the fixture closer to the water line.

CalmSeasQuest · 09/22/2010, 07:12 AM

An important component of LED (or any lighting for that matter) acclimation is knowing what environment the corals were housed in prior to the lighting change. Access to a PAR meter to map the prior lighting setup before the changeover is ideal. I agree you can probably increase the PAR assuming they were under greater par conditions previously.

Either way, I'd make any PAR changes slowly - I try to adjust no faster than 3% per week using the smallest increments possible. Also remember that LEDs are typically under-measured by PAR meters by ~15%.

I've learned the hard way, it's better to initially provide less than optimal amounts of PAR, rather than rapidly hitting them with too much. A slight loss in coloration is much preferred to bleached/dead corals.

drtrash · 09/22/2010, 07:30 AM

What are typical PAR #'s for T-5? How long did it take you guys to adjust to the visually low light intestity? I think people blast them becasue the light appears to be dim compared to the bright diffuse light of T-5 as apposed to a point source light like LED.

datagr1ff1n · 09/23/2010, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drtrash

What are typical PAR #'s for T-5? How long did it take you guys to adjust to the visually low light intestity? I think people blast them becasue the light appears to be dim compared to the bright diffuse light of T-5 as apposed to a point source light like LED.

I agree the lights look like they are not as bright. So I turned mine up, then I turned them up again..... By the time I got to 80% I nuked my tank badly. I also think that people should get a par meter and match up with the AI lights for a starting point. I put my 8x t5 HO 54w back on the tank and checked. The AI lights hit that par at 22%

so at 80% it’s no surprise that I darn near killed off the inverts. I’m feeding them to try to bring them back and the lights are at 20%. So please be careful with these lights.

Johnny C · 09/23/2010, 01:15 AM

Just skimmed through the thread, so I apologize if I missed it... but does anyone have PAR measurements for the AI Nano? Wondering what I could keep with one in a Solana? Thanks in advance!

drtrash · 09/23/2010, 07:27 AM

Not sure if they are on market yet, seen pictures and heard stories but no owners, kinda like a UFO or bigfoot.

wesley6610 · 09/23/2010, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datagr1ff1n

I agree the lights look like they are not as bright. So I turned mine up, then I turned them up again..... By the time I got to 80% I nuked my tank badly. I also think that people should get a par meter and match up with the AI lights for a starting point. I put my 8x t5 HO 54w back on the tank and checked. The AI lights hit that par at 22%

so at 80% it’s no surprise that I darn near killed off the inverts. I’m feeding them to try to bring them back and the lights are at 20%. So please be careful with these lights.

That is an excellent point and great starting place before blindingly turning up LEDs and gauging PAR from brightness with no reference point whatsoever.

jkhuskies99 · 09/28/2010, 08:58 PM

Wow, what a great thread. I am very interested in the AIs as I love new toys...the features like sunrise and sunset and adjusting intensity over the course of the day sounds amazing. I posted in another thread, but after reading this one, I think this is the right place to post.

I have a 50g Artisan from Cadlights that came with their LED fixture. Not bad, and all my SPS, LPS and gigantea carpet are doing well. The cadlights fixture can't be dimmed which sucks. I have the fixture about 4" over the water, decent light spread except the back corners. The way the artisan is designed, the overflow is in the middle back of the tank, so you end up losing 4 inches off the back of the tank. I have to light an area 24" across and about 18" front to back, about 18 inches to the sand bed.

I was thinking I would have to go with 2 12" AIs, but after reading about the new changes with 70 degree optics, I'm starting to think I could get away with 1 12" fixture set horizontally about 4" above the water. I know I would still have dim areas in the back and front corners, but not a big concern. Thoughts?

Also, I am concerned about brightness as I would prefer a more 10k to 14k look, so I'm thinking I should probably go with the 2 white to 1 blue ratio? Or, I guess that does not matter since you can dial in whatever color combination you want.

Another idea I had was going with 2 nanos, although no one has seen them yet. I could space them 4-5 inches apart, so more light would reach the sides and front corners, and the center of the tank would get overlapping light spread. Any thoughts?

Sorry for the long post, just trying to figure out how to do this without spending too much cash since I am going to buy a PAR meter as well...

CalmSeasQuest · 09/29/2010, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuskies99

I was thinking I would have to go with 2 12" AIs, but after reading about the new changes with 70 degree optics, I'm starting to think I could get away with 1 12" fixture set horizontally about 4" above the water. I know I would still have dim areas in the back and front corners, but not a big concern. Thoughts?

Also, I am concerned about brightness as I would prefer a more 10k to 14k look, so I'm thinking I should probably go with the 2 white to 1 blue ratio? Or, I guess that does not matter since you can dial in whatever color combination you want.

Another idea I had was going with 2 nanos, although no one has seen them yet. I could space them 4-5 inches apart, so more light would reach the sides and front corners, and the center of the tank would get overlapping light spread. Any thoughts?

Sorry for the long post, just trying to figure out how to do this without spending too much cash since I am going to buy a PAR meter as well...

I have my AIs over a Cadlights 39GPro, so I'm familiar with the artisan setup. While it's *possible* to light the tank with only one unit, you would have to raise it very high (I'd guess ~18"-20") and I'm not sure how the 70 optics optics would perform on the new SOL blues - especially since you need a lot of PAR at depth for your Gigantea.

I'd forget the Nanos. I saw one running at MACNA, although they are nice with the integrated controller, they put out only 1/2 the light and PAR and are designed for much smaller tanks.

I think the best solution would be 2 AI units, hung about 12" above the water line. This would give you perfect coverage and more PAR than you could possible use (your Gigantea will be in heaven.) As you prefer 10K-14K, I agree the WWB option would be preferable.

Most importantly, beg/borrow or steal a PAR meter. Map your existing setup BEFORE you install the AI's so you have baseline numbers to use for your acclimation.

CalmSeasQuest · 09/29/2010, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny C

Just skimmed through the thread, so I apologize if I missed it... but does anyone have PAR measurements for the AI Nano? Wondering what I could keep with one in a Solana? Thanks in advance!

The Nana on display at MACNA was simply 1/2 of a standard AI unit. It contained 4 pucks, each housing 12 LEDS instead of the standard AI with 24 LEDS. It's reasonable that the PAR output would be roughly 1/2 of a standard AI however - I'm not sure what optics were used on the Nano. If they are 70 degrees, then some PAR will be traded in exchange for additional coverage area.

jkhuskies99 · 09/29/2010, 08:34 AM

Thanks for your response and the insight on the nanos, good to know. I just bought a PAR meter, so I will definitely map out what I have now before moving to AIs.

I hear you regarding having 2 as the ideal setup, but can't afford that right now. I think I'm going to purchase 1 WWB fixture, set it horizontally and raise it as high as I can. Since I will have the PAR meter, I will see how it maps out and how it looks. If either the PAR or brightness of the tank are not to my satisfaction, I can always get the second WWB. As a backup, I have my current LEDs in case I can't replicate the necessary PAR with 1 AI.

Okay, we'll see how it goes. Thanks again for the thread and the knowledge!

GeppettoCarlo · 09/29/2010, 04:39 PM

Im curious too see how the single unit will work for you. Please keep us updated, as I was in the market when the Gen2 models were released.

At a local reef show (MAX) I had the opprotunity to talk to a rep at ReekGeek, a distributer for AI. Their demo tank was a 60cube lite by a single AI unit. I do myself have a 60 cube also, which struck my interest. He told me that a single unit will do the job perfectly.

jkhuskies99 · 09/29/2010, 07:30 PM

I receive the meter and AI fixture next week. I hope to map out PAR levels with my current system by the end of the week...

How high did the rep have the unit above the water?

jkhuskies99 · 09/29/2010, 07:30 PM

I receive the meter and AI fixture next week. I hope to map out PAR levels with my current system by the end of the week...

How high did the rep have the unit above the water?

GeppettoCarlo · 09/30/2010, 01:25 AM

I would say about 12-14" above the water level. Its been a while, its hard to remember.

rostato · 09/30/2010, 07:24 AM

The 70 degree optics are not new. All gen 2 AI fixtures were sent with 40 degree optics on the inside, and 70 degree for the outside. I got this info straight from Joe at AI...

Also, here is my thread chronicling a test of turning one module sideways. So far so good
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1811328

wayne in norway · 09/30/2010, 07:54 AM

The graph showing underestimation/overestimation of PAR by Apogee meters is on page 7 of the manual I tinhk. While for a '10K' or 14K overall spectrum (horrible approximation) there might be underestimation of 10-15% for very blue sources (blue LED's and T5's are very affected, peaky spectra) the underestimation is likely a lot, lot bigger than 15%. This is not exclusive to LED.

jkhuskies99 · 09/30/2010, 08:09 PM

Already an update from me. Talked to Aquailluminations, and they let me know that the 70 degree optics will not help me out regarding light spread. They recommended that the fixture should be 8-12 inches above the water if I only use one fixture turned sideways. I know a few of you have mentioned this already. Unfortunately, hanging the fixture wont work for me. So, with confirmation that the newer optics will not help, my current solution is to get an acrylic riser that will be placed on top of my glass canopy. I will then place the AI fixture on top of the riser. Not sure how much this will diffuse the light, any thoughts?

Also, if you didn't know this already, the PAR test on their website was done with the fixture 12" above the water.

jkhuskies99 · 10/06/2010, 08:50 PM

For those that are interested, I received my PAR meter today and did some quick readings on my Cadlights LED fixture and the AI Sol White. I have my Cadlights LED about 3" above the water on top of a glass canopy, and the AI Sol was raised 10" above the water on top of the canopy. Here are some comparative readings.

Cadlights
On water surface - 2000
4" below center - 1020
4" below far right - 110
4" below far left - 105
10" below center - 570
Front bottom - 150
Right bottom - 120
Left bottom - 90

AI at 100 / 100
On water surface - 1045
4" below center - 780
4" below far right - 110
4" below far left - 100
10" below center - 570
Front bottom - 110
Right bottom - 90
Left bottom - 75

I will spend more time this weekend mapping out my existing Cadlights LED. I must say the Cadlights LED is impressive with it sitting right above the water surface, and the single AI turned sideways at 100/100 is slightly lower in PAR all around. I am now thinking of going with 2 AIs on the rails...

drtrash · 10/06/2010, 09:19 PM

What is bottom? I have 2 blue sol 10" above water line currently running at 45% B & 30% W. Only second week. Need to get ahold of a meter so I know where I'm at.

CalmSeasQuest · 10/06/2010, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rostato

The 70 degree optics are not new. All gen 2 AI fixtures were sent with 40 degree optics on the inside, and 70 degree for the outside. I got this info straight from Joe at AI...]

This conflicted with what Chris had told me at MACNA - I was quite certain that my Gen2 has 40 degree optics throughout. In speaking with Joe, he confirmed the change to 70 degree perimeter optics took place in June/July of this year. All prior Gen 2 units (including mine which was purchased in 11/2009) use 40 degree optics exclusively. The pucks containing 70 degree optics have a dot in the center of the three lenses.

I also learned my SOl Blue upgrade ships tomorrow

. I'm planning on playing around a bit with intermixing the white and SOL blue pucks to get the optimal combination of color and intensity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuskies99

For those that are interested, I received my PAR meter today and did some quick readings on my Cadlights LED fixture and the AI Sol White. I have my Cadlights LED about 3" above the water on top of a glass canopy, and the AI Sol was raised 10" above the water on top of the canopy. Here are some comparative readings.

Cadlights
On water surface - 2000
4" below center - 1020
4" below far right - 110
4" below far left - 105
10" below center - 570
Front bottom - 150
Right bottom - 120
Left bottom - 90

AI at 100 / 100
On water surface - 1045
4" below center - 780
4" below far right - 110
4" below far left - 100
10" below center - 570
Front bottom - 110
Right bottom - 90
Left bottom - 75

The Cadlights LED is a 120 watt unit (120 LEDS running at 1W ea.) compared to the 70 watt AI (24 LEDS at~3W) It should put out about 42% more PAR if operating at a similar efficiency. PAR drops off more at depth due to the lack of optics on the Cadlights. At $400, the Cadlights looks like a great value if you don't need dimming and you're able to mount them close to the waters surface. The non-optics 120 spread would spill a lot of light is hung above the tank.

GeppettoCarlo · 10/07/2010, 02:07 AM

Very interesting, I was hoping to see greater par numbers at the 20" depth from the AI.
How is the light spread hanging 10" over the tank?

09/22/2010, 06:47 AM	#179
wesley6610 Water Lover Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 576	Try raising the whites to 60% and blues to 80% and retest....or....you could keep them at 40/60 and lower the fixture closer to the water line. Last edited by wesley6610; 09/22/2010 at 06:49 AM. Reason: Answer was in the picture.

09/22/2010, 07:12 AM	#180
CalmSeasQuest Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Brighton, MI Posts: 1,230	PAR - Too little preferred over too much An important component of LED (or any lighting for that matter) acclimation is knowing what environment the corals were housed in prior to the lighting change. Access to a PAR meter to map the prior lighting setup before the changeover is ideal. I agree you can probably increase the PAR assuming they were under greater par conditions previously. Either way, I'd make any PAR changes slowly - I try to adjust no faster than 3% per week using the smallest increments possible. Also remember that LEDs are typically under-measured by PAR meters by ~15%. I've learned the hard way, it's better to initially provide less than optimal amounts of PAR, rather than rapidly hitting them with too much. A slight loss in coloration is much preferred to bleached/dead corals. __________________ -Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change

09/23/2010, 01:15 AM	#183
Johnny C Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 4,140	Just skimmed through the thread, so I apologize if I missed it... but does anyone have PAR measurements for the AI Nano? Wondering what I could keep with one in a Solana? Thanks in advance! __________________ "...the sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonders forever" -Jacques Cousteau

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
LED lighting and PAR measurements -- Advice?	pdelcast	Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment	15	07/27/2008 09:41 PM
54 Watt T5 Bulb PAR measurements	Ken668	Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment	23	08/17/2006 07:42 PM

09/21/2010, 07:24 AM	#176
drtrash Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,178	Is first set of # at 100% and the second set? Also would like to know what are the PAR #'s coming off the blue light. Will it be same at white?

09/22/2010, 07:30 AM	#181
drtrash Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,178	What are typical PAR #'s for T-5? How long did it take you guys to adjust to the visually low light intestity? I think people blast them becasue the light appears to be dim compared to the bright diffuse light of T-5 as apposed to a point source light like LED.

09/23/2010, 07:27 AM	#184
drtrash Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,178	Not sure if they are on market yet, seen pictures and heard stories but no owners, kinda like a UFO or bigfoot.

09/28/2010, 08:58 PM	#186
jkhuskies99 Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 65	Wow, what a great thread. I am very interested in the AIs as I love new toys...the features like sunrise and sunset and adjusting intensity over the course of the day sounds amazing. I posted in another thread, but after reading this one, I think this is the right place to post. I have a 50g Artisan from Cadlights that came with their LED fixture. Not bad, and all my SPS, LPS and gigantea carpet are doing well. The cadlights fixture can't be dimmed which sucks. I have the fixture about 4" over the water, decent light spread except the back corners. The way the artisan is designed, the overflow is in the middle back of the tank, so you end up losing 4 inches off the back of the tank. I have to light an area 24" across and about 18" front to back, about 18 inches to the sand bed. I was thinking I would have to go with 2 12" AIs, but after reading about the new changes with 70 degree optics, I'm starting to think I could get away with 1 12" fixture set horizontally about 4" above the water. I know I would still have dim areas in the back and front corners, but not a big concern. Thoughts? Also, I am concerned about brightness as I would prefer a more 10k to 14k look, so I'm thinking I should probably go with the 2 white to 1 blue ratio? Or, I guess that does not matter since you can dial in whatever color combination you want. Another idea I had was going with 2 nanos, although no one has seen them yet. I could space them 4-5 inches apart, so more light would reach the sides and front corners, and the center of the tank would get overlapping light spread. Any thoughts? Sorry for the long post, just trying to figure out how to do this without spending too much cash since I am going to buy a PAR meter as well...

09/29/2010, 08:34 AM	#189
jkhuskies99 Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 65	Thanks for your response and the insight on the nanos, good to know. I just bought a PAR meter, so I will definitely map out what I have now before moving to AIs. I hear you regarding having 2 as the ideal setup, but can't afford that right now. I think I'm going to purchase 1 WWB fixture, set it horizontally and raise it as high as I can. Since I will have the PAR meter, I will see how it maps out and how it looks. If either the PAR or brightness of the tank are not to my satisfaction, I can always get the second WWB. As a backup, I have my current LEDs in case I can't replicate the necessary PAR with 1 AI. Okay, we'll see how it goes. Thanks again for the thread and the knowledge!

09/29/2010, 04:39 PM	#190
GeppettoCarlo Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central OC Posts: 298	Im curious too see how the single unit will work for you. Please keep us updated, as I was in the market when the Gen2 models were released. At a local reef show (MAX) I had the opprotunity to talk to a rep at ReekGeek, a distributer for AI. Their demo tank was a 60cube lite by a single AI unit. I do myself have a 60 cube also, which struck my interest. He told me that a single unit will do the job perfectly.

09/29/2010, 07:30 PM	#191
jkhuskies99 Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 65	I receive the meter and AI fixture next week. I hope to map out PAR levels with my current system by the end of the week... How high did the rep have the unit above the water?

09/29/2010, 07:30 PM	#192
jkhuskies99 Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 65	I receive the meter and AI fixture next week. I hope to map out PAR levels with my current system by the end of the week... How high did the rep have the unit above the water?

09/30/2010, 01:25 AM	#193
GeppettoCarlo Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central OC Posts: 298	I would say about 12-14" above the water level. Its been a while, its hard to remember.

09/30/2010, 07:24 AM	#194
rostato Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 1,161	The 70 degree optics are not new. All gen 2 AI fixtures were sent with 40 degree optics on the inside, and 70 degree for the outside. I got this info straight from Joe at AI... Also, here is my thread chronicling a test of turning one module sideways. So far so good http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1811328

09/30/2010, 07:54 AM	#195
wayne in norway Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 1,271	The graph showing underestimation/overestimation of PAR by Apogee meters is on page 7 of the manual I tinhk. While for a '10K' or 14K overall spectrum (horrible approximation) there might be underestimation of 10-15% for very blue sources (blue LED's and T5's are very affected, peaky spectra) the underestimation is likely a lot, lot bigger than 15%. This is not exclusive to LED.

09/30/2010, 08:09 PM	#196
jkhuskies99 Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 65	Already an update from me. Talked to Aquailluminations, and they let me know that the 70 degree optics will not help me out regarding light spread. They recommended that the fixture should be 8-12 inches above the water if I only use one fixture turned sideways. I know a few of you have mentioned this already. Unfortunately, hanging the fixture wont work for me. So, with confirmation that the newer optics will not help, my current solution is to get an acrylic riser that will be placed on top of my glass canopy. I will then place the AI fixture on top of the riser. Not sure how much this will diffuse the light, any thoughts? Also, if you didn't know this already, the PAR test on their website was done with the fixture 12" above the water.

10/06/2010, 08:50 PM	#197
jkhuskies99 Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 65	For those that are interested, I received my PAR meter today and did some quick readings on my Cadlights LED fixture and the AI Sol White. I have my Cadlights LED about 3" above the water on top of a glass canopy, and the AI Sol was raised 10" above the water on top of the canopy. Here are some comparative readings. Cadlights On water surface - 2000 4" below center - 1020 4" below far right - 110 4" below far left - 105 10" below center - 570 Front bottom - 150 Right bottom - 120 Left bottom - 90 AI at 100 / 100 On water surface - 1045 4" below center - 780 4" below far right - 110 4" below far left - 100 10" below center - 570 Front bottom - 110 Right bottom - 90 Left bottom - 75 I will spend more time this weekend mapping out my existing Cadlights LED. I must say the Cadlights LED is impressive with it sitting right above the water surface, and the single AI turned sideways at 100/100 is slightly lower in PAR all around. I am now thinking of going with 2 AIs on the rails...

10/06/2010, 09:19 PM	#198
drtrash Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,178	What is bottom? I have 2 blue sol 10" above water line currently running at 45% B & 30% W. Only second week. Need to get ahold of a meter so I know where I'm at.

10/07/2010, 02:07 AM	#200
GeppettoCarlo Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central OC Posts: 298	Very interesting, I was hoping to see greater par numbers at the 20" depth from the AI. How is the light spread hanging 10" over the tank?