Large Tank IN a Basement-Ventilation Suggestoin Please oh brethern of the mamoth tank - Page 8

Dag · 12/28/2005, 11:21 PM

I was told by two senior HVAC designers that my duct work was big enough. Originally the whole house was heated and cooled by the original unit which used a 4 ton condenser. I reconfigured the system so that a separate unit was installed in the attic to cool the second floor. The supplies that fed the second floor were cut and turned to feed the first floor. When it came time to replace the original unit, we initially thought that we could downsize the first floor system to 3 tons, since we now had a separate system on the second floor. When the new 3 ton didn't seem to cool properly, I went back to the 4 ton.

It was shortly after the time of the change that the aquarium was added. So now I'm confused about what was cause and what was coincidence. It could be the tank has nothing to do with it all.

As for the second floor, there's no separation. That's the puzzling part.

Thanks for trying.

nonot8946 · 12/29/2005, 08:12 PM

I wanted to edit my previous post to say that humid air is actually less dense than dry air and should rise.

navajo · 12/30/2005, 03:15 PM

Hey Cap'n,

I subscribed to this thread a few months ago for when I get my sump etc plumbed to the basement. I wanted to cut a vent in the cold air return in the fishroom.

Then the thread was brought back to life and I just re-read it again and noticed that most folks on here are talking about gas furnaces etc.

Will the vent mod work for a Heat Pump also?

thanks for your time and all the good info!

capncapo · 12/30/2005, 03:29 PM

Are you talking heating or cooling season?

It won't do anything during the heating season except spread the humidity throughout your house.

Should work fine during cooling season.

navajo · 12/30/2005, 04:02 PM

Guess that WOULD have been a good thing to include in my post huh?

I am more concerned about the Cooling Season. Since the winters are VERY dry around here and the summers are very humid.

We actually enjoy the added humidity from the 75 gal and 55 gal in the living room during the winter. Fewer nose bleeds. But I am about to put a 200 gal upstairs with about another 150 gal sump/fuge/etc in the basement and just don't want the mold to sneak in on me in the summer.

Sounds like a plan. Am going to pick up a vent tonight and see what I can break this weekend!

Take care and HAPPY NEW YEAR!

capncapo · 12/30/2005, 04:07 PM

Good luck and Happy New Year to you!

If you can't do the mod, you certainly won't be able to maintain a reef. It's a breeze.....

Brad W · 01/11/2006, 12:06 AM

I'm planning for about a 180g tank in my basement. How feasible would it be to basically seal the canopy over the tank and vent it with an exhaust fan out through an exterior wall? I realize this wouldn't be a true seal because of holes for electric cords and whatever cooling fans were being used to bring air into the canopy.

Since we live in Portland, OR we don't really have extreme temperatures. We leave the basement door open to the garage most of the time so the pooch can do what it wants. This makes me think I could probably vent air into the basement to combat any negative pressure issues without disrupting our comfort level or using a lot of extra heating/cooling energy.

This is new construction by the way, gas furnace and central air but we don't run either very hard. Sump will be in the garage.

capncapo · 01/11/2006, 08:26 AM

Should work fine provided that your fan and other equipment can survive the high temperatures and humidity..

Whaledriver · 01/11/2006, 09:28 AM

Brad W
Why not have a fan in and a fan out? They should balance each other out and limit the suction of air out of the house.

Brad W · 01/11/2006, 11:24 PM

Capncapo, is there a particular fan you would recommend that could handle the high temps and humidity? There will be about 20' of duct.

Whaledriver, your idea makes sense. I'd like to avoid running another duct if possible (and trying to locate it far enough from the output of the other fan) plus the additional large fan (more electricity, etc.). I was just hoping to use a few of those 4" icecap fans for air input and cooling in the canopy and then maybe just a passive vent on the exterior basement wall somewhere for the negative pressure thing. The ducting will actually be going through the basement wall and then through the garage's exterior wall. Your way definitely sounds more bulletproof though.

capncapo · 01/13/2006, 12:47 PM

Brad,

I've never had to look for such a beast. I'll look through some catalogues and see if there is anything available through any of my suppliers. You may want to do an internet search .

Whaledriver · 01/13/2006, 01:23 PM

Intead of the Icecap fans you might try some inexpensive computer case fans. Just have them go on and off with the lights and you should be fine.

capncapo · 01/13/2006, 06:46 PM

Evaporation occurs when the lights are off too

Brad W · 01/13/2006, 06:47 PM

That would be great if the canopy input fans only needed to be on with the lights. I'll be curious if I can get away with that for the big inline vent fan too.

Brad W · 01/13/2006, 06:53 PM

That's weird capncapo, we must have posted at almost the same time.

Yeah, I had a feeling you'd have something to say about evaporation even when the lights are off.

By the way, would there be much "passive" air exchange out the exterior vent w/o the inline fan on or maybe with just the canopy fans on?

capncapo · 01/13/2006, 08:31 PM

I'm sure that with ANY fan on you'll get a fair amont of air exchange. The greater the difference in temps., the better the flow. Canopy fans may be all that is needed at night.

If there is a HUGE temperature differential, you may get enough of a passive flow that no fan is necessary BUT you need to set the system up to take the greatest advantage of that. Your exhaust "stack" on the outside should be placed at least a few feet higher than the intake in order to get the airflow started and constantly moving in the right direction.

causeofhim · 02/21/2006, 10:34 AM

Interesting info. Thanks

reeflover2 · 02/21/2006, 09:02 PM

Just a quick follow up question. I just moved into a new home and am planning on building about a 12' by 14' fish room. I was planning on using vapour barrier on the inside of the studded walls and sealing this to the floor and using a external steel door to basically eliminate this room from the house. My furnace is a 90% efficieny furnance which does not have a pilot and is pvc vented in and out. I also had the builder install two 4" dryer vents and the room also has a window. I am building a 84" x 72" x 30" tank. Reading your posts I have figured (I think) that my furnace will not remove humidity during the heating in the winter months. Is this correct? Will it remove the humidity when the air conditioner is running in the summer months? My house also has a cold air return in the fish room already. It is the cheap carboard thermal stuff that they use here. Would keeping this cold air return available during the air conditioning season help remove humidity from the room instead of using fans with the dryer ducts? My thoughts are to use this method of control in the summer months and use the two dryer vents in the cooler and winter months to cool the room and control humidity. I was thinking of running one of the dryer vents down to the basement floor and the other one install a good sized bathroom fan in the roof. Does this make sense? Would you also have a supply vent in the room for the cooling season as well to supply cool air into the room? Would you put it at the floor as well? Ay other ideas?

capncapo · 02/22/2006, 01:30 AM

Reeflover2,

The cold air return vent will help during the cooling season though I have reservations about the type of material from which it is made. The best advice that I can give you is to contact a local heating and cooling contractor and ask if there would be any problems associated with your vents and the humidity. My main concern would be mold growing on the inside of your return BUT I am not familiar enough with what you have to be certain about that. If it is what is commonly called "duct board", the material can develop mold in my environment in St. Louis but again, I am not aware of what possibilities exist when it is used in yours. How's that for a definite answer?

A supply vent would be a must if you are going to try to separate your fish room from the rest of your house.

Many 90% furnaces use the PVC in and out vents but many of the intake vents ARE NOT a requirement of the system and can be modified to pull the intake air from the home. You should be able to contact a local supplier of your particular furnace and ask them if the outside intake is in the design specs of the furnace and therefore is a must or if it can be converted to draw inside air. You will lose about 3% or 4% efficiency by doing this but you will also be sending some of your humidity down the drain as condensate.

Your 4" intake and exhaust vents should make a world of difference for you in the cooler and winter months.

As far as suggestions are concerned, I would need to know any information you can give me about your climate such as humidity levels in summer and anything else you think might help me.

hawk66 · 03/06/2006, 11:47 PM

Are you familiar with a venting product called "Humidex"? To me it looks like an exhuast fan built into a verticle rectangular duct attached to an outside wall. It draws stale basement air near the floor and exhaust higher up on the wall. With this principle in mind I was thinking of diy'ing something similar in my fishroom by installing a bathroom fan near the floor instead of the ceiling and exhausting about 5ft up the wall. Does this make sense? Also is there a simple test to check for negative pressure. My gas water heater is located in my fishroom. I plan to either install a grill/vent on the fishroom door to draw from the rest of the basement or if this is not enough, install a fresh air intake in the fishroom and then seal the fishroom off from the rest of the house. Any thoughts you have will be appreciated.

capncapo · 03/08/2006, 01:03 AM

Hawk66,

I personally am not familiar with the Humidex product but fail to see the logic in its design. I would draw the air from the highest point possible as it is the warmest and therefore, most humid air in your fish room. I would think that removing the warmest, most moisture laden air would provide the greatest benefit when it comes to both temperature and humidity control. Removing the coolest air from near your floor will not help keep the wood in your floor joists or subfloor from absorbing the moisture contained in the hot humid air that will remain there.

A somewhat easy way to test for negative pressure would be to turn your fan on and hold something that produces smoke close to the flue pipe opening on your water heater. They draw air into the flue from the open space between the top of the heater and the flue pipe. If the smoke is blown away from the heater instead of being sucked up into ithe flue then you definitely have a negative pressure situation.

Personally, I think you would be ahead of the game by having the fresh air intake in your fish room and closing it off from the rest of the house. It will keep your house more comfortable in winter and will also help a bit with evaporation by reducing the temperature in your fish room. The cool air in the fish room can't hold as much moisture as the warm air from your house is capable of holding. I would place the intake as near to the floor as possible and the exhaust as near to the ceiling as possible. Not only will you be drawing the warmest air out but you may also reap some benefit from the natural convection.

hawk66 · 03/08/2006, 12:18 PM

Capncapo, Makes sense, thanks for the info.
If your interested here is the link to the humidex site.
http://humidexatlantic.com/how_humidex_works

hdtvguy · 03/11/2006, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capncapo
Hawk66,

A somewhat easy way to test for negative pressure would be to turn your fan on and hold something that produces smoke close to the flue pipe opening on your water heater. They draw air into the flue from the open space between the top of the heater and the flue pipe. If the smoke is blown away from the heater instead of being sucked up into ithe flue then you definitely have a negative pressure situation.

Is there a way to test for negative pressure other than using the flue on a hot water heater? I have an Electric hot water tank no flue to try this.

Thanks

capncapo · 03/11/2006, 05:33 PM

You could remove a short length of the flue pipe from the furnace and perform the same test.

hdtvguy · 03/11/2006, 07:40 PM

I have a Lennox Pulse HF furnace with the PVC flue and FA intake. Not sure the pipe can be taken apart?

12/28/2005, 11:21 PM	#176
Dag Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,292	I was told by two senior HVAC designers that my duct work was big enough. Originally the whole house was heated and cooled by the original unit which used a 4 ton condenser. I reconfigured the system so that a separate unit was installed in the attic to cool the second floor. The supplies that fed the second floor were cut and turned to feed the first floor. When it came time to replace the original unit, we initially thought that we could downsize the first floor system to 3 tons, since we now had a separate system on the second floor. When the new 3 ton didn't seem to cool properly, I went back to the 4 ton. It was shortly after the time of the change that the aquarium was added. So now I'm confused about what was cause and what was coincidence. It could be the tank has nothing to do with it all. As for the second floor, there's no separation. That's the puzzling part. Thanks for trying. __________________ Aryeh Life is too short to learn everything from experience. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon reef tank

12/30/2005, 03:15 PM	#178
navajo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 644	Hey Cap'n, I subscribed to this thread a few months ago for when I get my sump etc plumbed to the basement. I wanted to cut a vent in the cold air return in the fishroom. Then the thread was brought back to life and I just re-read it again and noticed that most folks on here are talking about gas furnaces etc. Will the vent mod work for a Heat Pump also? thanks for your time and all the good info! __________________ Tom (The Tool Man) "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to KEEP fish and his family will soon be eating Ramen Noodles..." Current Tank Info: 210 GAL SW/ 55 GAL Heavily planted FW/ 3000 GAL KOI Pond/

12/30/2005, 03:29 PM	#179
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Are you talking heating or cooling season? It won't do anything during the heating season except spread the humidity throughout your house. Should work fine during cooling season. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

12/30/2005, 04:02 PM	#180
navajo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 644	Guess that WOULD have been a good thing to include in my post huh? I am more concerned about the Cooling Season. Since the winters are VERY dry around here and the summers are very humid. We actually enjoy the added humidity from the 75 gal and 55 gal in the living room during the winter. Fewer nose bleeds. But I am about to put a 200 gal upstairs with about another 150 gal sump/fuge/etc in the basement and just don't want the mold to sneak in on me in the summer. Sounds like a plan. Am going to pick up a vent tonight and see what I can break this weekend! Take care and HAPPY NEW YEAR! __________________ Tom (The Tool Man) "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to KEEP fish and his family will soon be eating Ramen Noodles..." Current Tank Info: 210 GAL SW/ 55 GAL Heavily planted FW/ 3000 GAL KOI Pond/

12/30/2005, 04:07 PM	#181
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Good luck and Happy New Year to you! If you can't do the mod, you certainly won't be able to maintain a reef. It's a breeze..... __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

12/29/2005, 08:12 PM	#177
nonot8946 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: central IL Posts: 77	I wanted to edit my previous post to say that humid air is actually less dense than dry air and should rise.

01/11/2006, 12:06 AM	#182
Brad W Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 89	I'm planning for about a 180g tank in my basement. How feasible would it be to basically seal the canopy over the tank and vent it with an exhaust fan out through an exterior wall? I realize this wouldn't be a true seal because of holes for electric cords and whatever cooling fans were being used to bring air into the canopy. Since we live in Portland, OR we don't really have extreme temperatures. We leave the basement door open to the garage most of the time so the pooch can do what it wants. This makes me think I could probably vent air into the basement to combat any negative pressure issues without disrupting our comfort level or using a lot of extra heating/cooling energy. This is new construction by the way, gas furnace and central air but we don't run either very hard. Sump will be in the garage.

01/11/2006, 08:26 AM	#183
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Should work fine provided that your fan and other equipment can survive the high temperatures and humidity.. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

01/11/2006, 09:28 AM	#184
Whaledriver Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,811	Brad W Why not have a fan in and a fan out? They should balance each other out and limit the suction of air out of the house.

01/11/2006, 11:24 PM	#185
Brad W Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 89	Capncapo, is there a particular fan you would recommend that could handle the high temps and humidity? There will be about 20' of duct. Whaledriver, your idea makes sense. I'd like to avoid running another duct if possible (and trying to locate it far enough from the output of the other fan) plus the additional large fan (more electricity, etc.). I was just hoping to use a few of those 4" icecap fans for air input and cooling in the canopy and then maybe just a passive vent on the exterior basement wall somewhere for the negative pressure thing. The ducting will actually be going through the basement wall and then through the garage's exterior wall. Your way definitely sounds more bulletproof though.

01/13/2006, 12:47 PM	#186
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Brad, I've never had to look for such a beast. I'll look through some catalogues and see if there is anything available through any of my suppliers. You may want to do an internet search . __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

01/13/2006, 01:23 PM	#187
Whaledriver Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,811	Intead of the Icecap fans you might try some inexpensive computer case fans. Just have them go on and off with the lights and you should be fine.

01/13/2006, 06:46 PM	#188
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Evaporation occurs when the lights are off too __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

01/13/2006, 06:47 PM	#189
Brad W Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 89	That would be great if the canopy input fans only needed to be on with the lights. I'll be curious if I can get away with that for the big inline vent fan too.

01/13/2006, 06:53 PM	#190
Brad W Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 89	That's weird capncapo, we must have posted at almost the same time. Yeah, I had a feeling you'd have something to say about evaporation even when the lights are off. By the way, would there be much "passive" air exchange out the exterior vent w/o the inline fan on or maybe with just the canopy fans on?

01/13/2006, 08:31 PM	#191
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	I'm sure that with ANY fan on you'll get a fair amont of air exchange. The greater the difference in temps., the better the flow. Canopy fans may be all that is needed at night. If there is a HUGE temperature differential, you may get enough of a passive flow that no fan is necessary BUT you need to set the system up to take the greatest advantage of that. Your exhaust "stack" on the outside should be placed at least a few feet higher than the intake in order to get the airflow started and constantly moving in the right direction. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

02/21/2006, 10:34 AM	#192
causeofhim Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Janesville, WI Posts: 1,379	Interesting info. Thanks

02/21/2006, 09:02 PM	#193
reeflover2 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: ON Canada Posts: 142	Just a quick follow up question. I just moved into a new home and am planning on building about a 12' by 14' fish room. I was planning on using vapour barrier on the inside of the studded walls and sealing this to the floor and using a external steel door to basically eliminate this room from the house. My furnace is a 90% efficieny furnance which does not have a pilot and is pvc vented in and out. I also had the builder install two 4" dryer vents and the room also has a window. I am building a 84" x 72" x 30" tank. Reading your posts I have figured (I think) that my furnace will not remove humidity during the heating in the winter months. Is this correct? Will it remove the humidity when the air conditioner is running in the summer months? My house also has a cold air return in the fish room already. It is the cheap carboard thermal stuff that they use here. Would keeping this cold air return available during the air conditioning season help remove humidity from the room instead of using fans with the dryer ducts? My thoughts are to use this method of control in the summer months and use the two dryer vents in the cooler and winter months to cool the room and control humidity. I was thinking of running one of the dryer vents down to the basement floor and the other one install a good sized bathroom fan in the roof. Does this make sense? Would you also have a supply vent in the room for the cooling season as well to supply cool air into the room? Would you put it at the floor as well? Ay other ideas?

02/22/2006, 01:30 AM	#194
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Reeflover2, The cold air return vent will help during the cooling season though I have reservations about the type of material from which it is made. The best advice that I can give you is to contact a local heating and cooling contractor and ask if there would be any problems associated with your vents and the humidity. My main concern would be mold growing on the inside of your return BUT I am not familiar enough with what you have to be certain about that. If it is what is commonly called "duct board", the material can develop mold in my environment in St. Louis but again, I am not aware of what possibilities exist when it is used in yours. How's that for a definite answer? A supply vent would be a must if you are going to try to separate your fish room from the rest of your house. Many 90% furnaces use the PVC in and out vents but many of the intake vents ARE NOT a requirement of the system and can be modified to pull the intake air from the home. You should be able to contact a local supplier of your particular furnace and ask them if the outside intake is in the design specs of the furnace and therefore is a must or if it can be converted to draw inside air. You will lose about 3% or 4% efficiency by doing this but you will also be sending some of your humidity down the drain as condensate. Your 4" intake and exhaust vents should make a world of difference for you in the cooler and winter months. As far as suggestions are concerned, I would need to know any information you can give me about your climate such as humidity levels in summer and anything else you think might help me. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

03/06/2006, 11:47 PM	#195
hawk66 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Terrace B.C Canada Posts: 208	Are you familiar with a venting product called "Humidex"? To me it looks like an exhuast fan built into a verticle rectangular duct attached to an outside wall. It draws stale basement air near the floor and exhaust higher up on the wall. With this principle in mind I was thinking of diy'ing something similar in my fishroom by installing a bathroom fan near the floor instead of the ceiling and exhausting about 5ft up the wall. Does this make sense? Also is there a simple test to check for negative pressure. My gas water heater is located in my fishroom. I plan to either install a grill/vent on the fishroom door to draw from the rest of the basement or if this is not enough, install a fresh air intake in the fishroom and then seal the fishroom off from the rest of the house. Any thoughts you have will be appreciated.

03/08/2006, 01:03 AM	#196
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	Hawk66, I personally am not familiar with the Humidex product but fail to see the logic in its design. I would draw the air from the highest point possible as it is the warmest and therefore, most humid air in your fish room. I would think that removing the warmest, most moisture laden air would provide the greatest benefit when it comes to both temperature and humidity control. Removing the coolest air from near your floor will not help keep the wood in your floor joists or subfloor from absorbing the moisture contained in the hot humid air that will remain there. A somewhat easy way to test for negative pressure would be to turn your fan on and hold something that produces smoke close to the flue pipe opening on your water heater. They draw air into the flue from the open space between the top of the heater and the flue pipe. If the smoke is blown away from the heater instead of being sucked up into ithe flue then you definitely have a negative pressure situation. Personally, I think you would be ahead of the game by having the fresh air intake in your fish room and closing it off from the rest of the house. It will keep your house more comfortable in winter and will also help a bit with evaporation by reducing the temperature in your fish room. The cool air in the fish room can't hold as much moisture as the warm air from your house is capable of holding. I would place the intake as near to the floor as possible and the exhaust as near to the ceiling as possible. Not only will you be drawing the warmest air out but you may also reap some benefit from the natural convection. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one? Last edited by capncapo; 03/08/2006 at 01:29 AM.

03/08/2006, 12:18 PM	#197
hawk66 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Terrace B.C Canada Posts: 208	Capncapo, Makes sense, thanks for the info. If your interested here is the link to the humidex site. http://humidexatlantic.com/how_humidex_works

03/11/2006, 05:33 PM	#199
capncapo Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Florissant, MO Posts: 4,664	You could remove a short length of the flue pipe from the furnace and perform the same test. __________________ S.L.A.S.H. ............ Often imitated, never duplicated! Venture forth and enjoy life .... the only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Current Tank Info: Which one?

03/11/2006, 07:40 PM	#200
hdtvguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Winnipeg,Canada Posts: 1,287	I have a Lennox Pulse HF furnace with the PVC flue and FA intake. Not sure the pipe can be taken apart?