N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[tatuvaaj]

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

I have a lot of feather dusters, am I better off letting the bacteria into the tank or should I try to skim it out?

Skimmer isn't going to remove all the bacteria in single pass so you can just keep the skimmer running and your filter feeders will still get a lot of food.

Be sure to report how your filter feeders react to feeding. I find this to be one of the most interesting features of this type of filtration.

[bertoni]

Okay, let's give the arguments about personal attacks a rest. Let it go.

[tatuvaaj]

Unfortunately this seems to be one of discussions that is best to have in private. Frankly, I'm surprised about all the negativity around this new concept. It's not like we have too many of those these days.

But I've been here long enough to know when it's time to stop and move on to less controversial topics.

[kaskiles]

All the attacks on it just seem to validate it more...

How light is this stuff, if you put it in a TLF up-flowing reactor without the top sponge, and run it at 80 gallons per hour (like they recommend for GFO), will you blow this media out or will it just bounce around inside the reactor.

[ksed]

Originally Posted by NaClH2Opgh

It's statements like this that drive me nuts. How is this any more controlled than metered dosing of vodka. You cannot control what the bacteria consume and that what they don't consume is skimmed out AND goes back into the display tank. There is no way for you to know except by testing and observation just like vodka dosing.

please also list the coral that don't like vodka dosing because I have sps, lps, softie, zoa's and clams.

I believe what recife111 ment by controlled, is with other forms of carbon dosing it is basically all over your aquarium water as with this system it's localized in your reactor.In my opinion this could be advantageous in some aspects.

[NaClH2Opgh]

Originally Posted by ksed

I believe what recife111 ment by controlled, is with other forms of carbon dosing it is basically all over your aquarium water as with this system it's localized in your reactor.In my opinion this could be advantageous in some aspects.

I understand that part but it will still make it to the display tank. The skimmer is not going to skim it all out. Unless you have a tank with no flow it will be all over your aquarium also.

[Frogmanx82]

The bacteria might get out in the tank, but the carbon stays put. I think comparisons to carbon dosing are a place to start, but the pellets are too new to know for sure what the differences are. I have some pellets on order, but I'm not sure that for the same money I couldn't have gotten a metering pump and fed vodka.

I travel and can't do manual dosing, I liked the idea of a set it and leave it carbon dosing option and while I could meter it, the thought of yet another cord to plug in isn't all that appealing.

Anyway, the more people try it, the more we'll know. It is certainly way to premature to make any generalized comparison to other carbon dosing method results.

I have two tunze nano skimmers. I am thinking of putting some pellets in the base of one of them and see how the skimmate compares.

[ksed]

Originally Posted by NaClH2Opgh

I understand that part but it will still make it to the display tank. The skimmer is not going to skim it all out. Unless you have a tank with no flow it will be all over your aquarium also.

Yes! the bacteria will make its way around all over , in fact that may good for your corals (food).But the carbon will not make its way to the aquarium, it will remain localized.Instead with Vodka dosing the carbon source is all over, which, if not dosed carefully it could lead to bacterial blooms in the aquarium.Not to say that it can't be done safely, many people here do so, but the bio pellets will give the added comfort.

Kevin

[tatuvaaj]

I personally don't think this form of filtration is validated yet

It certainly works (helps to grow large amount of biomass) and has many benefits over the DOC dosing but it's effectiveness in a wide range of reef aquariums remains to be determined. I was hoping this thread would help to collect experiences to achieve that goal.

Many people don't need any kind of organic carbon dosing to achieve desired dissolved inorganic nutrient levels. On the other side of spectrum, I probably feed (or would like to feed) more each day than "average" reefer in a whole month. Obviously the amount of DOC needed for aquariums is not going to be problem for hobbyists closer to zero dosing but as I started to approach the 30 ml/day dose (400g of sugar dissolved in 700 ml of 40% ethanol) I really started to think about ways to reduce that dose.

So far I have been able to reduce my previous DOC dosage in half, even with modest amount (1.5 liters) of BioPellets. I'm going to add one more liter of BioPellets but I'm not sure I will ever stop DOC dosing completely (even if I could) because I've seen positive signs from some filter feeders when there is modest amount of labile DOC in the water.

As has been pointed out several times before, aquarists who are feeding heavily will probably still need GFO to overcome the apparent N:P imbalance in many foods. I might try to build PAO reactor next

[jptenklooster]

Originally Posted by Genetics

The polymer does not dissolve by itself and needs to be released by enzymes produced by the bacteria. When all paperwork is finished (should be tonight) then I can give some more info on the exact polymer. Waistproducts of the polymer are CO2, H2O Ca2+(low) and CO3 (low), so no risk there.

Jean Paul, do you have any guidelines for the best method of flow through a cylinder with these pellets? Would you recommend adding enough flow to suspend the pellets which may increase bacterial sloughing? What are your thoughts on bacterioplankton output from these pellets?

The flow through in my cilinder has a flow through of around 500 l/h. I also used more flow (up to 1000) and it did not realy make a difference. I have seen people use a standard zeovit reactor for the pellets and that is working fine as well. The bacterial output is high in my tank, but it does seem to depend on your feeding regime. The more you feed, more nitrogen and phosphate will be present which will stimulate growth of your bacteria.

I just came up with this idea because I could not dose enough wodka to reduce nitrates without getting a massive bacterial bloom in my tank.

I looked around for similar media because some had mentioned this and was unsuccessful. Also, I know daily dosing turns many people off and would like an alternative. So hopefully this works out well without gross side effects.

[jptenklooster]

Originally Posted by Jk5

To Timwijgerde and jptenklooster...

Please, give us more reports how the bacterial mass going out of the pellets is feeding the inhabitants of the tank.


I have seen your post in the Netherlands forum there was 1 case of white water.

The case of white water was reported 1 hour after putting the pelets into the tank. This had nothing to do with bacterial bloom, but was the presence of free polymer between the pellets. Happened before and is readily removed by your skimmer and has absolutely no harmful effects on your animals (personal experience there as well).

My assumption is that water flow and the mode of use of this pellets is not fully stablished yet...
And these diferent conditions could have effect on the way of no3 and po4 removal.

I have seen in the Netherland forum, in the beggining jptenklooster tried to work with a flow of 1 liter /hour like a denitrator.

I have never used a low flow on purpose, but after my holiday I noticed that one of the hoses was blocked and gave very low flow. I would suggest to use a high flow in order to keep the system as aerobic as possible. low flow would work, but only for nitrate reduction by redox (N2 production), however, large flow (aerobic) depends more on immobilisations of nutrients by the formation of biomass, which also includes the absorption of phosphate for the generation of proteins, DNA RNA etc...

[jptenklooster]

Originally Posted by kaskiles

All the attacks on it just seem to validate it more...

How light is this stuff, if you put it in a TLF up-flowing reactor without the top sponge, and run it at 80 gallons per hour (like they recommend for GFO), will you blow this media out or will it just bounce around inside the reactor.

This is what I use. I just added the pellets to my old GFO filter and they bounce around very nicely. It does help to have a sponge or rough net on the top to prevent some lighter beads to stay in.

There is actually also somebody that just added the beads to a empty compartment in his biological filter and that seems to be working as well, although I would prefer to use a old GFO filter or perhaps zeovit filter system

[NaClH2Opgh]

Originally Posted by tatuvaaj

I personally don't think this form of filtration is validated yet

It certainly works (helps to grow large amount of biomass) and has many benefits over the DOC dosing but it's effectiveness in a wide range of reef aquariums remains to be determined. I was hoping this thread would help to collect experiences to achieve that goal.

Many people don't need any kind of organic carbon dosing to achieve desired dissolved inorganic nutrient levels. On the other side of spectrum, I probably feed (or would like to feed) more each day than "average" reefer in a whole month. Obviously the amount of DOC needed for aquariums is not going to be problem for hobbyists closer to zero dosing but as I started to approach the 30 ml/day dose (400g of sugar dissolved in 700 ml of 40% ethanol) I really started to think about ways to reduce that dose.

So far I have been able to reduce my previous DOC dosage in half, even with modest amount (1.5 liters) of BioPellets. I'm going to add one more liter of BioPellets but I'm not sure I will ever stop DOC dosing completely (even if I could) because I've seen positive signs from some filter feeders when there is modest amount of labile DOC in the water.

As has been pointed out several times before, aquarists who are feeding heavily will probably still need GFO to overcome the apparent N:P imbalance in many foods. I might try to build PAO reactor next

Your tank must be heavily stocked! I know people that have 300 gallon tanks with fish, and lots of coral and only dose 18-20 ml of vodka only. I would love to see a FTS..

Again I am very very interested in this product and will follow along till it becomes feasible for me to use. I am going to be moving from a 75 to a 220 in the next few months and will look for a way to make a built in compartment in my sump to use something like this. I completely understand how you would be concerned with adding that amount of alcohol to your system on a daily basis.

[tatuvaaj]

NaClH2Opgh,

It's not so much about how much coral and fishes I have it's the feeding they require. In the last couple of months I've been adding azooxanthellae animals (soft corals, oysters, tunicates, sponges, crinoids and gorgonians) and keeping them well fed requires a good amount of food.

The problem with these animals IME is that they require a lot of food *and* excellent water quality. I almost lost many of them when my nutrient levels went up(*). I couldn't see any change in corals like Acropora, Stylophora or Porites but the azooxanthellae animals were severely damaged. Fast.

(*) A story I don't want to look back on

[skibum9884]

is anyone using these with a UV Sterilizer? I thought I read somewhere that the effect would be diminished, and ideally I'd consider running them both in line back to my display.

[catastrofe]

Originally Posted by skibum9884

is anyone using these with a UV Sterilizer? I thought I read somewhere that the effect would be diminished, and ideally I'd consider running them both in line back to my display.

UV is typically not used with a bacteria based system as the UV kills the bacteria. Or so I'm told. . .

[skibum9884]

that's disappointing....maybe i'll run UV until i'm very comfortable, and then switch over to running a media chamber with the pellets. I must admit they're very tempting!

[Rickyrooz1]

Are the biopellets worth purchasing or is vodka still the better & cheaper solution?

[catastrofe]

Originally Posted by Rickyrooz1

Are the biopellets worth purchasing or is vodka still the better & cheaper solution?

It's not just about the price of the media, it's also about convenience.

[bluereefs]

Quite interesting novelty with great future. There is one issue what I dont get it right with bio pellets. Everyone talking how to use this pellets in established tanks but can not find information how to use them on brand new aquarium. Fresh aquarium, no fishes, corals, not even live rock (I use AquaRoche reef keramik ), what is the procedure for that kind of aquarium? Can I use bio pellets from the start, did I need to dose something, and when I can start to add fishes/corals? Can I ad big quantity of fishes imideatly or I need to rise bio load slow.

BTW jptenklooster I send you the mail 2 days ago but never get reply from you, to e mail adress mentioned in the first or second pages of this thread. I am interested in purchasing and distribution.

[Frogmanx82]

In the long run you are cheaper buying a dose meter and dosing vodka. A dose meter is probably more convenient as well. You don't have to change out anything and can adjust it to whatever you want, whenever you want.

I have some pellets coming, I'm not sure I wouldn't have been better off putting $100 toward a good metering pump.

[tatuvaaj]

Frogmanx82,

It should be pointed out that running costs are not really high (IMO). If you start with one liter and you feed heavily, you'll need to add 25% every 6 months. That means that you'll spend 50 euros every two years... with less nutrient input you'll spend less. Here in Finland that is much cheaper than vodka

Also, one of the key points is that you don't need to adjust the dosing as long as you have enough pellets. In theory that is.

[jptenklooster]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

Quite interesting novelty with great future. There is one issue what I dont get it right with bio pellets. Everyone talking how to use this pellets in established tanks but can not find information how to use them on brand new aquarium. Fresh aquarium, no fishes, corals, not even live rock (I use AquaRoche reef keramik ), what is the procedure for that kind of aquarium? Can I use bio pellets from the start, did I need to dose something, and when I can start to add fishes/corals? Can I ad big quantity of fishes imideatly or I need to rise bio load slow.

BTW jptenklooster I send you the mail 2 days ago but never get reply from you, to e mail adress mentioned in the first or second pages of this thread. I am interested in purchasing and distribution.

i did not receive any mail. could you send me a pm?

[NaClH2Opgh]

How much flow(gph) do you have going through the reactor that holds the pellets?

[NaClH2Opgh]

How much flow(gph) do you have going through the reactor that holds the pellets?