Let's talk about water quality in an SPS tank.

[Ereefic]

This link will help with all of your conversion needs.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/

Oh, and BTW.........1 cup [US] = 236.5882375 milliliter

[JB NY]

yeah sorry. 120ml 1/2cup.

[Nathan]

Ok no problem!



-Nathan

PS But I still think it is incorrect for the instructions to measure a powder or granules by the "ml".

[Lowredranger]

not neccesarily i have a measuring cup that has both ml and and cup on it but i do usually use that for my liquids and my kalk is measured in tablespoons. and also when you mix salt doesnt it usually give measurments in how many cups for the amount of water and salinity not grams or tablespoons. maybe they use the ml b/c it can be a larger measurment than tablespoons and not that many people i imagine would want to use grams. just my idea on the subject.
Jason

[JB NY]

I think they use ml rather than tablespoons because most of the world uses the metric system. Us yanks are the odd one here.

[Nathan]

Originally posted by JB NY
I think they use ml rather than tablespoons because most of the world uses the metric system. Us yanks are the odd one here.

hahahhahah

Yeah I grew up in Germany and it's all METRIC. It was hard getting used to the Miles per gallon, and pounds, and INCHES and in engineering I encountered some pretty funky imperial units like foot-pounds and slugs.

Europeans would measure GFO in grams; heck we even measure breakfast cereal in grams! 450g of Corn Flakes is a standard issue box!

Anyway, don't get me started with the metric vs. imperial thing! I'll just use three table spoons of GFO at a time and see how it goes. I am noticing a slight decrease in that green dusty algae over the past few days so I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing and eventually it's got to pass.

-Nathan

[melev]

Joe, can you point me to the thread or posts where you discuss how much GFO would you use specifically? Steve Weast pointed me your way, and said you had a thread on it somewhere.

I have a 280g reef, and as of today, PO4 is .1 I'm using two Phosban Reactors, and will be getting GFO in bulk so I need a guideline. Total water volume of the tank is 330g. I skim hard, and try to feed less.

[Fliger]

Melev, having used it with a quality po4 test kit - I can tell you my reco - and that would be not to follow any "guidelines". Simply get a colormeter or Deltec/Merck kit and start out with 200-300 ml of GFO.

Make sure to rinse it well, both Doug from Deltec and SeanT have posted good info. IMO, its not the drop in po4 that hurts corals, its probably the dust that is burning them - possibly the iron. Depending on how dusty or small the GFO you get is, you might want to but a couple more Phosban sponges to make sure you keep it in - or just buy an aquarium sponge somewhere and cut it to shape.

But there is no rush to take out the po4 overnight - just put ~250ml in the reactor and run it for a few days then toss it (since GFO is so cheap). You can measure the discharge water - that is what you're supposed to do - but 250ml won't make a dent in .1 po4 in a 280G tank - and tests are expensive. So maybe just use 250ml for a few days, toss, refill .... then test the water and effluent after a few times.

But any GFO product is probably going to vary so IMO rules don't apply. Just be safe and go slow.

JMVVVHO!

[melev]

I just used one of these containers. I threw out the jar, so I don't know the grams it held. http://www.championlighting.com/prod...3&cat=0&page=1

I divided it in half and put some in each reactor, and that didn't fill it much more than 1/3 full. Probably less. I have a few sponges that I cut and fit inside to help keep the dust in the reactor, and when it was first started up, I ran it into a filtersock to trap what I could.

When you guys rinse it, what do you use? RO/DI water? I hate running a few gallons through it since it starts using up what is in it right off the bat, but my thinking is that RO/DI is PO4-free, so it shouldn't waste the media.

[JB NY]

Hey Marc, I looked and couldn't find the thread. I didn't have one that specifically addressed how I dose GFO. So I'll write it down here.

Right now I only use 1/4 cup (60ml) of Rowaphos changed out once a month. My system is 180 gallon main tank, DSB with a 55 gallon cheatomorpha refugium. Total system gallons is 280.

Here is what I recommend to do.[list=1][*]Run it in a fluidized reactor.[*]Start out with a minimal amount, and work your way up. Do not follow the manufactures recommended dosage. IMO it is way too high unless you have very high PO4 to begin with.[*]I recommend a good starting point is 1/5 the recommended dosage.[*]Rinse the media before using it.[*]Put it in the bottom of the reactor and put a sponge on top of the GFO and then put 1 cup of carbon on top of the sponge. To make it simple I recommend at least 1-2" of carbon if you are using a large amount of GFO or a large diameter reactor.[*]Run a low flow through the reactor. You should see the carbon slightly moving but not jumping (like when you run a lot of water through it)[*]Change it out once a month.[/list=1]
OK now some thoughts.

Personally I believe that the problems with GFO are because when there is not enough PO4 for the GFO to bind to, the GFO will release something into the water. Carbon is used to try and catch that "stuff" that the GFO releases. I'm not a chemist, so I can't explain it more than that. But that's my reasoning based on problems I've had in the past and talks with Bomber in some threads in the past.

I rinse the GFO in a plankton cup. If you ever have raised live food, you find that places like Florida Aqua Farms sell these things called plankton cups. It's a cup with a fine mesh screen on the bottom. You can buy them in different sizes, I use a 120µ cup. All I do is dump 60ml of GFO into the plankton cup and rinse it with tap water for about 30 seconds and it is clear. Then I scoop it out and put it into the reactor.

I have tried the Phosban reactor sold by TLF, IMO they are junk. They are time consuming to open and close, due to the many screws they use. It also easily leaks if you put a little too much pressure on it (which isn't much). They leak from the top near the input and output barbs, so there is not way to fix it after it leaks but to get a new one. After going through three of them, I finally bought a Deltec FR509 for $200 and the have not had any problems at all. Much easier to work with and no leaks. You can say that the more expensive one is just too much money but after I broke my third Phosban reactor I had a different opinion of the matter.

I found that I would run into problems (acro recession) when I used a lot of GFO and changed it out every few months rather than a little that is changed out monthly.

Anyway that's my thoughts on the subject.

[the_anti]

tagging along.

[melev]

Joe, the new Phosban Reactor is far better than the old one. I have two old ones and a new one. Since the reactor is rated for 150g, I got two so they could keep up with 330g of system volume. Here are the differences in the reactor, with pictures. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...87#post5717187

A quarter cup sounds awfully low to me, but I do have a ton of fish and perhaps you do not. I'm filling up both reactors maybe 1/4 full, with the sponge far above the media. I've been using Pura PHOSlock, dividing that container between the two reactors. That would be about 220g or 1/2 lb per container. And like I said, it doesn't look like much.

Changing the media once a month is fine. I just did that, and the stuff smelled terrible, like it was full of fish waste. Do you change yours when the fluid coming out is more than 0 (po4)?

I don't have that nice sieve you have, but rather a 53u rotifer screen.

I appreciate your input thus far.

[JB NY]

You can start with more. If you get any recession don't come to me.

In all honesty I expected to use more. I used to use 500ml as per their recommendation. After determining that I was using too much and changing it not often enough. I decided to start with a ridiculously small amount and work my way up from there. I started using 60ml and noticed that it seemed to work just as well as when I had been using 500ml. So I stoped at that point and have not used more than that.

Thanks for those pictures. Yeah I had the older one with the screws. Hopefully the new ones are much better.

[melev]

So how are you measuring in ml? I just have regular amurican plastic measuring scoops and cups.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by Ereefic
This link will help with all of your conversion needs.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/

Oh, and BTW.........1 cup [US] = 236.5882375 milliliter

60ml looks to be about 1/4 cup.

[NaH2Ofreak]

I use to run PhosBan and ended up getting some acro recession. The Phosban media also seemed to form a solid block in the Phosban reactor. It also made the sponges hard as a rock. Not sure why but....I might try it again on my new tank using just a very small amount and changing more often as suggested by JB NY.

Dennis

[JB NY]

My 1/4 cup measuring cup has 60ml on it. The only reason I started using ml instead of cups, was that was the measurement rowaphos used.

[melev]

I found out at MACNA that the sponge inside our reactors will turn to stone with ROWAphos as well, if the calcium level is too high in our tank.

How many fish are in your tank, Joe? I have about 25, and six are large tangs.

[JB NY]

The only time I had my GFO turn into a brick is when I run it in a down flow reactor. When I started running it with the flow going up through it I had no problems. No problems with the sponges ever though.

My calcium is between 480-500, what did they consider high?

Marc, I have 13 fish, 1 tang, 1 foxface, 5 anthias, the rest are small, under 3".

[wfgworks]

JB NY

Is their a difference been RowaPhos and Phosban media?

Do you prefer one over the other?

MELEV

Start with a little an increase every 1-2 weeks. I started using the Pura Phoslock and lost 3-4 corals. I went back an started using 2-3 TBS and increased the amount every 1-2 weeks by 1-2TBS until I got to the desired amount.

[melev]

Joe, thanks for the reply. I'm trying to gauge our tanks to get an idea if they are comparable. It sounds like we are pretty even.

wfgworks, Phosban is a dry, dusty media where ROWAphos is damp and will make a plastic spoon look like it is rusty (after using it in the media).

I still can't get over the tiny amount you guys are recommending. Not that I'm complaining, but 3 tablespoons sounds like nothing compared to 330g of water. I do understand your cautious approach to assure the corals will be okay and still remove PO4 from the water. If I'm only using such a small amount, one Phosban Reactor should be plenty.

Joe, you were specific about using carbon above the media to help trap / remove some of the fines. What about the fact that for 4 weeks, carbon has exceeded its usefulness, has become a nitrate-producing zone, and may even release something it has absorbed early on? I normally run carbon for 3 days and take it off the system. Here's why: http://www.pets-warehouse.com/carbon.htm

[JB NY]

Hey Marc,

I'm not using the carbon to reduce Gelbstoff. Rather to catch anything harmful from the GFO.

I know that article well. It is the reason that, in the beginning, I only used carbon for 48 hours at a time I did this for about 1 1/2 years. After a while I felt that my primary reason for using carbon was not to reduce Gelbstoff but to reduce organics and nutrients. So I started keeping my carbon in the sump for two weeks. After about a year, I was talking to some people using zeovit. The zeovit system uses carbon for one month before swapping it for new carbon. A few people who had previously been changing carbon more often did not notice any detrimental effect to letting the carbon go a month in between changing. So I tried it and agree that changing carbon one a month seems to work just as well, over the long term, as changing it every two weeks.

I think if you have a problems, you should change out the carbon more often. If I see problems with my tank I will change carbon every 2-3 days until I think I have things under control. But for regular maintenance I only change it once a month.

FWIW. My Nitrates have always been undetectable and my phosphates undetectable with Salifert tests.

Also as far as preference to GFO, I have used Phosban, Salifert's Phosphate Killer, and Rowaphos. I think Salifert and Phosban work the same. I think the Rowaphos work slightly better than the others. FWIW.

[dgasmd]

It is interesting to see that you guys are using such small amounts of GFO. For over a year, I used phosban at twice the recommended dose with no problems at all. Then again, I had so much algae growing everywhere from the gigantic fish I was keeping and fron the accumulated PO4 over time. In my new tank, I have been using it from the begining at 1/2 the dose. Still have some nuissance algae growing that has been in check only with the use of several urchins. I do run a lot of carbon for 1-2 months. I am lazy, so I change it when I remember only. I decided to stop using phosban continiously and use it only for about 2 months and leave it off for another 2 months. I can't tell you a see a real difference yet. I will however start using a Merck/Deltec PO4 kit and test the effluent of the reactor too. Good discussion by the way.

[Fliger]

Originally posted by JB NY
my phosphates undetectable with Salifert tests.

I love Salifert for everything except phosphate. In fact I'm surprised they even put it out. It is unreliable and doesn't give the grades necessary (IME). For years I though I had zero phospates until I got a Merck (Deltec) kit. I use it sparingly, a test costs a buck. A friend has a colormeter and our results on Kent salt turned up the exact same results of .04 which is a scary discussion in itself.

Finsreef told me that Tunze was coming out with a phosphate test kit but I have no idea how it turned out.

[Hef]

Where are you guys getting this Merck/Deltec PO4 kit? I know its' expensive, but my real PO4 level is something I would like to know.