N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[rutz81]

I also have defintely seen positive results. Without the pellets being online for 9 days, I had algae growing on the sandbed, on Vortech, back wall. I came home, soaked the pellets in fresh and ran them for a few hours to clean them and within 2 days my tank isn't growing algae in the same places anymore, not anywhere else either. ONLY difference is having the pellets online again. I also dose 7-10 drops of MB7 daily. Maybe it wasn't meant to be run along with another additive, but, all I can say is that with the combo it is defintely halping to rid my tank of any stray nutrients that my skimmer can then remove.

[pecan2phat]

Can someone tell me if the "mulm" (bacterial sloughing) on the top layer of the beads in the reactor is normal and will it eventually dissipate?
Also will clumping eventually work it self out or do I need to take it offline and stir the beads manually?

[ari5736]

I think you want the mulm. I never got any which I think was part of my problem. You can make the pellets stop clumping by either starting and stopping the pump, or some other variation of slowing down and speeding up water flow a few times until they don't clump.

[daveonbass]

tntneon: I'm glad they seem to work for you, but IMHO I would guess that your husbandry practices would have produced the same effects all by themselves. I freely admit to not having as much time as I used to to devote towards tank husbandry, and so I was hopeing that these (all these) pellets would help to ease that burden. If I both could afford and had the time to do weekly water changes alone, I'm sure my problems would go away in a month. So my worry is that the pellets are not doing as much as the success stories think. It's like a P.T. Barnum scam "add these pellets to your crystal clear water, and keep changing it out for more crystal clear water, and I promise the pellets will keep your crystal clear water crystal clear!"

but who knows maybe the SWC stuff will kick in soon, so far nothing.

[sirreal63]

I feel your frustration Dave, but is it fair to say that because they didn't or haven't worked for you that they are a scam?

I am running them in my 58, tank has only been running 4 months, I had diatoms, cyano and a little hair algae, typical NTS. Two small fish and lots of SPS. Nitrates and Phosphates have remained undetectable with Salifert. Yes I know I had some but was being consumed giving false reading, I feed a frozen cube of Mysis and Brine Shrimp daily. I also dosed VSV for a few weeks, alternating Smirnoff, Imperial Pure Cane and Heinz Vinegar which I stopped as soon as the pellets came online. The pellets came from an already established tank, but she went with a different brand I believe. When I got them they were covered in mulm, and stunk like you would not believe. I rinsed them off in tap water and put them in service. I fashioned my own reactor from an empty Black Diamond jug, outfitted with a MaxiJet 1200 and a 1-1/4 bulkhead for drainage. I have good flow and the pellets move gently but do not move wildly. My skimmer is very oversized for my tank and it's production has increased since the addition of the pellets. I think too much flow is a problem for some, but I cannot prove that.

While I cannot quantifiably state that the pellets work, I can tell you that my N and P is not detectable and all algae is gone. This is the first product that I have used that appears to be doing what it is supposed to. My glass stays clean and I only clean it once a week, but it is not really that dirty, just a hint of algae. Rocks are clean, sand bed is clean.

Since the addition of the pellets, all algae is gone, no cyano and my chaeto is struggling to stay alive. Nitrates and Phosphates are still zero and I have changed out 20 gallons of water since tank was set up. Frozen food is notorious for phosphates and I do not rinse it first, and I also feed my juvenile Yellow Tang some Nori every other day. They do not eat all of the food. If the pellets were not working...I would have the algae again, I am positive of this. I have been in this hobby a long time with multiple tanks, this one is astounding me by being as clean as it is. I can only hope it continues.

I wish I knew how to help you and others who have not had success with this product, I truly do.

[daveonbass]

I'm NOT saying that it's a scam cause it didn't work for me. I'm saying it's a scam because the people it does work for have done more than just add pellets.

I have added nothing other than the pellets, cause the pellets didn't mention having to have prior additives. You mentioned that you did dose vsv, you may have stopped, but you did at one time. And you also mention water changes, it may be small amounts to you, but it's still a physical way of removing the problem water.

when I got BP's I was under the impression that they would work on their own. But it seems that having a prior seeded tank is actually quite a bit better than not.

I too have fed as much as you, two frozen cubes and a nori sheet per day. I fish and verts eat it all up, and I have never had a detectable level of PO4. So they are not raising that in my tank...but my NO3 levels can skyrocket if not kept in check. So I have to be careful.

all I'm saying is that many success stories have done more than one thing to their tank, I have not. I have a simple set up and the bp alone are not impacting it.

that or I'm just highy unlucky. :P

[sirreal63]

Throw some sugar in that tank...you know you want to.

It's all good and there is an answer to your dilemma, we just don't know what it is at this time. Until then, water change and do what you know works and has worked in the past.

[builderguy]

So is Microbacter the best thing to seed the BioPellets with?

[P'cola Reefer]

just dose vodka and microbacter7 works for me....

[bluereefs]

Originally Posted by tntneon

i find it said that they don't work for you guys , i almost feel guilty in starting this thread....

No need to regret Tntneon, actually are you kiding ,lol, this is one of the best thread I ever read in RC , IMO of course, there is so much valuable information, not only about BP. Loot of things are learned from this thread Before this thread bio pellets was almost unknowen in the reef keping, today almost every reef company have his version of bp and there is siginficant price drop for them what is good for us. In just few months so much is learned, discuseed, finded from this thread, I dont think that every other reef products are so much discussed in such a short period of time. I dont think that in reef keping exsist a product who will have same efect in every single reef aquarium where he is used. BTW I also had different expectation, is too good to be true, just ad 1000 ml of plastic and all your nitrate/phosphate problem are gone, well obviously bp dont work that way for some (me included) but I can get them to work with my diy reactor, one day I or we will find why bp dont wont to work in normal reactor (in my case) and why bp dont wont to work in some other reefer aquariums. Without this thread we will learn nothing. And is actually quite interesting, trying to locate the issue why bp do not wont to work in some cases and work in other, conclusion what we can made from this are not only beneficial for bp but for reef keeping at all because we will sure encounter simillar issue in the future with the developing of our hoby.

[ari5736]

It seems to me that every success story with pellets had dosed carbon prior to adding pellets. I never dosed, and I cannot seem to get the white mulm in my reactor. Maybe somebody can bottle some bacterial mulm and ship it to me. If it jump starts my pellets you can patent it and sell it for $100 a bottle.

[180+55reef]

I previously dosed vinegar and the pellets dont work for me either

[sirreal63]

Originally Posted by 180+55reef

I previously dosed vinegar and the pellets dont work for me either

Did the vinegar work?

[180+55reef]

yes
I have restarted it in conjuction with the pellets, I now get "better" skimate...........dark gunk. I am dosing very lightly with the vinegar as I just restarted (2 shots a day)

[bluereefs]

Originally Posted by ari5736

It seems to me that every success story with pellets had dosed carbon prior to adding pellets. I never dosed, and I cannot seem to get the white mulm in my reactor. Maybe somebody can bottle some bacterial mulm and ship it to me. If it jump starts my pellets you can patent it and sell it for $100 a bottle.

Nope, in my expirience, I dosed Vodka before bp in one of my tank (btw that was also unsucesfull, could not lower nitrate with vodka either, up to 11-12 ml daily) but the bp did not wont to work in that aquarium for months until I switched reactor. Other 2 aquarium was without vodka and same story, no succes with standard fluid reactor, and bacterial bloom with diy reactor. Most of my friends who can get bp to work dont dose vodka, or anything similar either. Ironicaly one of them have succes with the bp in the same reactor what was completly worthless for me. Other use them in ordinary breeding box and get them to work.

Right now I use bp in my diy reactor, who is bacterial maschine, but this time I started slowly, with 100 ml of bp, next week another 100 ml... now I use 500 ml (wont to avoid bacterial bloom what I get every time when I use bp in diy reactor) and they work (bacteria are in the sponge and in the filter bag located at the reactor outlet, skimming are also more stronger and stinky) I do not use bacterial aditives.
In same time I still use one of my fluidised reactor with 1000 ml of bp who do nothing, that is my first reactor with bp, he work for months (5-6 +) and he just dont work (same issue as some of the guys have here with non functional bp).

[ari5736]

Originally Posted by bluereefs

Nope, in my expirience, I dosed Vodka before bp in one of my tank (btw that was also unsucesfull, could not lower nitrate with vodka either, up to 11-12 ml daily) but the bp did not wont to work in that aquarium for months until I switched reactor. Other 2 aquarium was without vodka and same story, no succes with standard fluid reactor, and bacterial bloom with diy reactor. Most of my friends who can get bp to work dont dose vodka, or anything similar either. Ironicaly one of them have succes with the bp in the same reactor what was completly worthless for me. Other use them in ordinary breeding box and get them to work.

Right now I use bp in my diy reactor, who is bacterial maschine, but this time I started slowly, with 100 ml of bp, next week another 100 ml... now I use 500 ml (wont to avoid bacterial bloom what I get every time when I use bp in diy reactor) and they work (bacteria are in the sponge and in the filter bag located at the reactor outlet, skimming are also more stronger and stinky) I do not use bacterial aditives.
In same time I still use one of my fluidised reactor with 1000 ml of bp who do nothing, that is my first reactor with bp, he work for months (5-6 +) and he just dont work (same issue as some of the guys have here with non functional bp).

What is your best guess on how to ignite the pellets?

[bluereefs]

What is your best guess on how to ignite the pellets?

Realy dont have a clue, there is no sense-conection (for now) why they work in some cases and not in other, IME. I would just try to change the way bp was used and was not working, if you use them unsucesfully in reactor put them in the bag, breading box.... If you have some acryl tube, old ca reactor, whatever, try to use them in those aplication. For testing take some bp and put them in the glass/jar with aquarium water to see will you get bacteria after day or two...

[sirreal63]

It is entirely possible that the bacteria are able to utilize liquid carbon forms much easier than solid in the beginning. That may be why those of us who were doing VSV made the transition to solid easier. It's just an observation.

[Aquarist007]

I have read the whole thread and have been given the biopellets by a supplier to try on my system. However my system is run with two 40 gal refugiums, one with a deep sand bed and the other full of cheato macro algae. I have never tested any numbers for nitrates or phosphates even though I have a very heavy bioload in the display tank.
It would seem the principal reason for initiating this method is nitrate and phosphate reduction.
There has been a few posts made where the bacteria has made a difference in the growth and colouration of corals.
I'm not too sure that this method is applicable to my case and might have a negative impact on the filtration system I have?
Do the pellets make that much difference in the growth and coloration of corals to merit its use?

[GUILLO1]

The Warner Marine Pellets are for reals. I've been fighting some cyano which recently had turned kinda slimy. I couldn't get rid of it and I tried just about everything I could. I almost wiped out all my corals using that red slime remover. I tried lots of GFO, PhosGuard and carbon with no luck. I even tried an ATS algea turf scrubber. I didnt have the ATS set up long enough thats why it didnt work.

About 2 weeks ago I added 1/2 liter of WM ecobak pellets into a TLF reactor. About 3 days ago I recieved my Geo 420 reactor and I swithed the pellets from the TLF, plus I added 1 more liter. Yesterday I blasted all my rocks with a turkey baster and like always the tank looked really clean. By the next morning the slime would be back all over my tank. To my surprise today the tank is as clean as it was yesterday. I can also see where the cyano is dying off big time.

here is a video of the reactor with the pellets tumbling

[mm.reefs]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

...

I too have fed as much as you, two frozen cubes and a nori sheet per day. I fish and verts eat it all up, and I have never had a detectable level of PO4. So they are not raising that in my tank...but my NO3 levels can skyrocket if not kept in check. So I have to be careful.

daveonbass:

I think you have answered yourself. Bacteria in all probiotic systems manage Carbon, Nitrogen and phosphorus (C:N: P) in a 106:16:1 ratio respectively. If your system doesn’t have enough phosphate, the probiotic model won't work effectively. I hope this can give some light to your situation.

Any idea why your system manage phosphate so well?

[larryfl1]

i have had the np pellets online for about 3 or so weeks...

i am now noticing the algae in the refugium to receed...

should i pull it so that it doesnt die and pollute the tank???

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by larryfl1

i have had the np pellets online for about 3 or so weeks...

i am now noticing the algae in the refugium to receed...

should i pull it so that it doesnt die and pollute the tank???

what kind of algae--chaeto?

it the algae is turning brown etc then yes harvest it before it can release the nitrates and phosphates it has absorbed

you are indirectly answering one of my concerns about using the pellets in that I rely heavy on macro algae to keep my nitrates and phosphates undetectable.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I have read the whole thread and have been given the biopellets by a supplier to try on my system. However my system is run with two 40 gal refugiums, one with a deep sand bed and the other full of cheato macro algae. I have never tested any numbers for nitrates or phosphates even though I have a very heavy bioload in the display tank.
It would seem the principal reason for initiating this method is nitrate and phosphate reduction.
There has been a few posts made where the bacteria has made a difference in the growth and colouration of corals.
I'm not too sure that this method is applicable to my case and might have a negative impact on the filtration system I have?
Do the pellets make that much difference in the growth and coloration of corals to merit its use?

Hi,

No, I don't think so.

The point of organic carbon dosing is to correct a shortage of organic carbon relative to NO3 and PO4, enabling bacteria limitied by a lack of organic carbon to proliferate and consume all three which is what they need( carbon, nitrogen and phosphorous). It is thought the presence of high NO3 and or PO4 indicates that the bacteria that would consume them are limited by a lack of organic carbon.
Even with the localized nature of the pellets some of these bacteria get into the water column and escape the skimmer.Wether or not these serve as beneficial food is anybody's guess. They could do just as much harm as good depending on a number of variables. For example excess bacteria from organic carbon dosing or any organic carbon may upset balances in the coral's symbiont bacteria.
Lower NO3(less browning due to excessive zooxanthelae growth)) and lower PO4( less interference with calcification ) and clearer low nutrient water resulting in better lighting could easily account for any coral color enhancement as NO3 and PO4 are reduced in a typical carbon dosing scenario.
If you already have a low NO3 and PO4 and want to feed corals I 'd use a coral food with small micron size for sps,maybe even some amino acids, count my blessings and skip the pellets or any or other organic carbon dosing.

If organic carbon( pellets or other forms) are dosed to a tank with very low nitrate and phosphate to a point where the extra organic carbon drives bacteria to create a nitrogen defficiency or inorganic phosphate deficiency, the orgnanic carbon can build up to harmful levels without bacteria to consume it, since they will be starved for phosphate or nitrogen. The heterotrophic bacteria need all 3 , organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphate in ratios specific to the specific strain of bacteria.
For perspective a commonly applied ratio for life in the sea ( redfield ratio based on phytoplankton) is 116parts organic carbon to 16 parts nitrogen to 1 part phosphorous. This varies some from organism to organism but does show how carbon limitation could occur since much more of it is needed than either of the other two.

[bluereefs]

Originally Posted by mm.reefs

daveonbass:

I think you have answered yourself. Bacteria in all probiotic systems manage Carbon, Nitrogen and phosphorus (C:N: P) in a 106:16:1 ratio respectively. If your system doesn’t have enough phosphate, the probiotic model won't work effectively. I hope this can give some light to your situation.

Any idea why your system manage phosphate so well?

I was in similar situation, nitrates skyhigh phosphate 0 (probably more because I use Salifert test but he shows 0) I could not get bp to work in fluid reactor (everything was OK with flow, tumbling...) but when I switch to diy reactor using same bio pellets I get bacterial bloom next day and nitrates drop to 0,2 mg/lit. So I dont think phosphates play the role why bp do not wont to work. And I duplicate this scenario in all of my 3 aquariums, if bp do not wont to work in aquarium with limited phosphates I will not get bacterial bloom when I switch reactor.

Second, if I remember corectly bacteria can use organic phosphate not detectable by the test and they are sure present in aquariums with high nitrates and heavy feeding.