Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

I agree, rucnnefish. I added carbon to my canister filter a few days ago.

Despite the sagittaria looking like it's not going to make it, so far I haven't had very much algae. The ulva still looks good, but it's only been in since thursday, so we'll see how it does. I think all the water changes it took to get salinity down, helped a lot too.

[Michael Hoaster]

Ah, the good old days…



This may be peak macro growth, November 18, 2016.

[Michael Hoaster]

And today, February 27, 2017…



This is what happens when you subject a planted tank to hypo salinity. Not as much to look at. Drastic reduction in macro bio mass. I do enjoy the ulva moving in the current.



From the end. Pretty stark right now, but I expect it to return to beauty in a couple months.

[Michael Hoaster]

I dosed nitrate today. I want to see if I can get the ulva (or any other plant) to grow.

I didn't really think of this going in, but hypo is giving me somewhat of a reset. Learning what I have up to now, and being able to use it constructively after this treatment is kind of exciting.

I've started thinking about other things I could do, like getting rid of the turtle grass at last. I was hoping the hypo would take it out for me, but so far it hasn't. With almost a month remaining, it could still happen. But if it doesn't, what would be the best way to go about removing it? Pulling it out will decimate my DSB, and I doubt I can do it without ripping out the manatee grass in the process. So, the whole thing will have to be redone. And when would I do it? During hypo? After? Or maybe even after I replant, so there are more plants to take up nutrients.

Lots to think about…

[JZinCO]

I was thinking, you could probably get a pvc pipe, groove teeth into the end and then push it down and around each plant. A little twisting motion will cut the root. Then you should be able to pull up plants by the root collar/blade. this should keep the sand relatively in tact. Some roots will be left. If there are enough carb stores, you might get a new shoot emerge. Repeating the process and eventually will exhaust the carb stores. Yeah, you'll have some leftover roots in the sand bed, but that's just food for critters.
Another way is to run a thin blade into the sand. You cut up the roots without turning over the sand much. The shoots should come out with less hassle then.

Then bag up the shoots with the bits of left over root and I'll pick them up

Hey, I was also thinking.. in the past I thought your back wall was halimeda. I think that would look cool if you are still thinking about a replacement.

[sam.basye]

My wall is really thin and I let it dry for a few weeks, so it should be cured..

JZ has a great idea with the PVC plant extraction.
Using the clear plastic extension from a gravel vac might work too - as long as the roots aren't really thick.

[Michael Hoaster]

Very interesting ideas, JZinCO! Thank you so much for the input. This kind of discussion is key!

Yeah, Sam, I figured it was long shot, you being the foam master that you are. I wonder what it is. Stray voltage seems unlikely, but your description reminded me of that. Maybe a metal toxicity? You may try adding some plant material to it. If it grows, then add a snail and go from there. Plants are amazing at taking up metals, ammonia, etc., so that might be a thing to try.

Back to your idea JZ. My main concern would be the remaining roots and the possible harm to the manatee grass roots. The plants are pretty intertwined. Turtle grass roots get very large, so there would be an awful lot of storage available. I wonder how long of a battle that would entail.

I had a similar idea that would involve even less disruption, but maybe a longer battle. Rather than doing any digging at all, I'd just clip the blades off at the base. Then I'd keep clipping as new blades emerged, eventually exhausting their nutrient storage. No blades = no photosynthesis.

I have experimented with this method, clipping a few plants to see what would happen. New blades pop up quickly, and it seems so stimulate daughter plant production. So if I did this, I'd have to be very disciplined in maintaining a regular clipping schedule. I may try this method first, then try your idea if it doesn't work. As a last resort, I'd consider pulling up the whole DSB, sorting and removing plants, then replanting the whole mess. I really hope to avoid that.

Your input has given me a clearer picture of this scenario. I like the idea of starting with the least disruptive method, then trying more extreme measures if needed. Realizing I have more than one shot at this is quite a relief!

[JZinCO]

Yeah, I think you have a good approach. As I've used clipping successfully in the real world, I know it'll work in a tank. Just gotta repeat the treatment.

By the way, when, in the age of the tank, did turtle grass take hold? Mine withered away but manatee grass took hole. If I recall, turtle grass is a climax grass in the Key's more saline estuaries, and manatee grass is generally the pioneer grass. So it is intuitive that turtle grass requires a more established sandbed.

[Michael Hoaster]

Cool.

All three seagrasses were added at the very start of the tank. They all grew slowly at first. The turtle grass was the first to produce daughter plants. The manatee and shoal grasses eventually did as well. But the turtle grass was more prolific and now it's starting to crowd out the others. So it took hold sooner than the others in that regard, but I'm not sure when. I'd guess around six or seven months I could see it was reproducing faster.

You're right on with the climax and pioneer thing. Over the course of 2+ years, I've watched their natural succession right in my tank. Unfortunately, I'm not crazy about the turtle grass. I never intended to plant it, but the seagrass guy didn't have much manatee grass in stock. So I decided to plant all three and see what happened. Turned out I kept all three alive.

The dosing of CO2, nitrate and iron were all helpful. Substrate fertilization was also tried with some success. I also gave my DSB a head start with some rich dirt from my previous fresh water tank. Live mud was added as well.

With hindsight, I wouldn't plant turtle grass with manatee grass, unless you like the variation in blades. I prefer a more mono-specific look. I think shoal and manatee grass are a good match, as they look very similar. Shoal's just a bit shorter.

[Windy Miller]

Fantastic read and fantastic tank Michael. It's amazing what seagrass will survive so I'm not shocked that the seagrass may make it through the hypo.

I ran a seagrass lagoon many years back and I never truly appreciated it until it had gone. For the notebook a yellow tang ate every last green bit - whereas my bristletooth simply cleaned the epiphytes off them for years. It was more of a mixed reef in the end with LPS and softies but I honestly don't think I will ever surpass the beauty of the seagrasses again.

I wish you all the best on getting your work of art back in shape!

A few pics of my much missed lagoon to keep you going:

[Chasmodes]

Michael, I don't see the grammas in your latest pics. Are they doing OK?

Windy Miller, I see why you miss your lagoon, beautiful pics!

[Michael Hoaster]

Thank you and welcome, Windy Miller!

You had a yellow tang eat your seagrasses? That is surprising to me. Always thought they were too fibrous to interest tangs. I kept an atlantic blue tang in this tank for a while. He never touched the grasses, but in about six months or so, he completely wiped out my macros. And I had a lot! I loved having him. He relieved me of caulerpa pruning duty and watching him change from yellow to blue was cool too.

Thanks for the gorgeous pics and the encouragement!

I'd love to hear more from you on your experience with seagrasses. Please stop by again!

[Michael Hoaster]

Good question, Chasmodes.

I still have five, but you'd never know it. Three of them spend a lot of time laying around and not eating. I believe a secondary infection is the culprit. None of them scratch and none appear salted. I think it is just a matter of time. The other two seem fine but it's hard to know.

If I had to guess, I'd say I will end up with two. If so, I'll want to rebuild the harem when treatment is over.

[Michael Hoaster]

I'm seeing progress today.

The ulva does appear to be growing. Woohoo! The cyano on the back wall also appears reduced. Even the seagrasses look a little less encrusted. It seems all my efforts may be paying off. Naturally, I have no clue as to which efforts have been effective, but I guess the general trend is good.

It occurs to me that I could go ahead with turtle grass clipping now, during hypo treatment. Hitting it when it's already suffering may speed up the battle ahead. Although, it is still 'doing its job' of nutrient uptake, I suppose. Or is it? It appears to be neither dying nor growing. Hmm. My concern is if I clip them now, would I get an uptick of algae? I kind of doubt it because when I clipped a few the other day, they quickly shot up new blades. These come from internal storage no doubt, but the new blades would surely get right to work, photosynthesizing.

I'm leaning towards doing it. Maybe as a cautious compromise I should just clip half of them now and half later. Imagining my tank without turtle grass is exciting!

[Chasmodes]

Sounds like things are looking better. Hopefully the grammas can hang on.

[SantaMonica]

If the grass is not dying, then it is still filtering a little bit, due to it's basic metabolism.

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks Chasmodes.

Yes, SantaMonica, that's why I'm hesitant to start clipping them.

One of the females in the display had babies last night. Very interesting to watch. The male was frisky and stayed close, like he was waiting for the birthing to be over so he could do his thing. As far as I can tell, most of the babies are hanging in the ulva at the top. I have no idea how many there are, but it doesn't seem like many. The other female is quite pregnant as well, so soon there will be more. Nothing wrong with additional algae eaters, as well as live food for the grammas.

I'm still thinking on whether to clip turtle grass or not. Right now I'm leaning towards clipping some, but not all, this weekend. There's so much more I want to remove, but I'm trying to leave in as much living plant material as possible. I can't wait to tidy up!

Half way into hypo treatment, so only three more weeks!

[sam.basye]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Thanks Chasmodes.

Yes, SantaMonica, that's why I'm hesitant to start clipping them.

One of the females in the display had babies last night. Very interesting to watch. The male was frisky and stayed close, like he was waiting for the birthing to be over so he could do his thing. As far as I can tell, most of the babies are hanging in the ulva at the top. I have no idea how many there are, but it doesn't seem like many. The other female is quite pregnant as well, so soon there will be more. Nothing wrong with additional algae eaters, as well as live food for the grammas.

I'm still thinking on whether to clip turtle grass or not. Right now I'm leaning towards clipping some, but not all, this weekend. There's so much more I want to remove, but I'm trying to leave in as much living plant material as possible. I can't wait to tidy up!

Half way into hypo treatment, so only three more weeks!

What a disappointment..
Halfway through reading the post I realized you were talking about the mollies; not the grammas. Lol
Little grammas everywhere would be cool!

[Michael Hoaster]

D'oh! I guess I forgot to name the fish having babies. I'll try to be clearer next time.

[sam.basye]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

D'oh! I guess I forgot to name the fish having babies. I'll try to be clearer next time.

I should've known better. I was thinking how cool it was and at the same time that grammas aren't live bearers but the two thoughts didn't click. Lol

I think I like the way the tank looks better without all the greenery on the back wall. Looks more "authentic" maybe?

How's the condy doing after removing it?

[Michael Hoaster]

I like the back wall too. I especially like how the ulva up high shades it. With it in shadow, the seagrasses get a nice, dark, contrasting background, instead of more green of the caulerpa there before.

I would love to add an overhanging bulge to the top of the back wall, so most of it was shaded. Then I could encrust it with sponges. I wouldn't have to prune those living filters. But that would entail working with foam again. I'll save that project for a time when I'm doing some serious work on the tank.

The condy is in the QT with the live rocks, macro frags and a whole bunch of baby mollies. It looks pretty small, but okay, I hope. I haven't fed it, so I hope it's getting some mollies.

I guess I should start thinking about the return to regular salinity soon. I need to plan out the order of reintroduction, removal of unwanted stuff and the rebuilding of the detrivore community. I need to figure out how to remove the aiptasias from the live rock, without killing the encrusting sponges. I'm hoping that the caulerpa stays gone. Without a fast growing macro, maybe I can get the manatee grass to multiply in bigger numbers.

If I do it right, my little ecosystem will come back better and prettier.

[Chasmodes]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I need to figure out how to remove the aiptasias from the live rock, without killing the encrusting sponges.

Below is a link to a thread on RC about this topic. Have you thought about their methods?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1940141

[Michael Hoaster]

I checked it out. I've tried some of those methods-none with complete success. Aiptasia-X lead to a population explosion. Peppermint shrimp (and a filefish) seemed to work until I removed them-then they came back. I haven't tried boiling water, so I may give that a try.

After having them die out with hypo salinity in my display, I'm tempted to just move the rocks back in for the remaining three weeks of treatment. But I don't want to kill off the encrusting sponges. Some of the sponges still in the display have recessed, but are still hanging on. Hopefully they will bounce back when I raise salinity. When push comes to shove, I guess I am willing to risk it, for complete eradication.

Maybe I'll give the boiling water method a try this weekend and if that doesn't work, I'll throw 'em in hypo.

[Michael Hoaster]

The manatee grass is encrusted. It's not fun to show it looking like this, but I figured ugly milestones should be recorded too. Look closely and you may see some baby mollies. These little guys look to be a welcome addition to the crew. Every day they get bolder, swimming all over the tank now.



The ulva continues to look good. It's starting to shade the back left corner, which is where I planted the original turtle grasses. I haven't clipped any yet, but I will. I'm also thinking I may reintroduce my live rocks into hypo to rid them of aiptasias. I didn't quite get these tasks done today.

[zachxlutz]

You're taking all the steps you need to make your tank the best it can be, things can be challenging at times but you're heading in the right direction. I don't always post in your thread but I always enjoy your updates!