N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[tmz]

Thanks, and certainly a fair point of view. I think what would be real interesting would be to take a look at an established low nutrient bacterial driven methodology, like zeovit, and see how it performs both with and without bacterial additions. I realize that such an experiment would be difficult in terms of maintaining controls and even fashioning a way to accurately make the comparison, but I think such a comparison could shed some light on the importance, if any, bacterial dosing can play in the carbon dosing technique. What would be interesting to see if the zeolites were populated in each instance with very different species or densities of bacteria (andparticularly those dosed in the zeobak) and what, if any, difference it made in terms of nutrient export.



If the folks making the bacterial supplements told us exactly what bacteria were in there we probably could look them up and see what the CNP ratio was and draw a few conclusions from that.Better an analysis of the bacteria could give information on CNP levels in the biomass. I'm not sure a zeo system test would carry over to other carbon dosing methods per se but the experiment would be interesting.

Good luck . Hope you grow a beautiful reef.

[whatcaneyedo]

Originally Posted by davyr

Has anybody noticed any bleaching of their softies after using the pellets? Have a look at these guys and it has only just happened since i started with the pellets.

I'm using the Vertex pellets and I've had the same thing happen. A leather, toadstool and kenya tree have all bleached completely white like what you're showing. I'm going to try taking the pellets out for a week or more to see what happens.

[daveonbass]

low nutrients, and high nutrients (PO4 and NO3) still don't work.

[bluereefs]

Just for the testing purpose I took some bp from functional reactor as well some bp from the sump who "run" out from the reactor, and put them in plastic jar with aprox 200 ml+ water from aquarium, in less then 24 hours testing water are litlle cloud and there was visible bacterial string from bp long aprox 3-4 cm. Will see how long will need to water become totall cloudy and if nitrates drop in those experimental jar.

Next part of the experiment is to took bp from non functional reactor and made same experiment.

[tntneon]

Cool bleureefs ,
that you take the effort (...and time , that i don't have for the moment ) to experiment with the pellets , maybe the lazzy pellets are now seeded and will also kick in.
Keep us infomed...

greetingzz tntneon

[davyr]

According to B/P,s graph below they drop for the first 5 wks and then they seem to drop slowly but what i want to know is. How much flow through the reactor?

[bluereefs]

Thank you Tntneon , will keep you informed, as anybody else in this thread. Is actually quite interesting experiment.

Regarding the flow I just measure outlet flow from both of my reactor, relativ precise with 1100 ml can and stopwatch.

Functional BP reactor with aprox 500 ml of bp have flow 640 lit/hour , aprox 160 gall/hour

Non functional reactor with aprox 1000 ml of BP have flow 613 lit/hour, aprox 153 gall/hour

Hope that help

[larryfl1]

hey all,

i have been running pellets for 1 month..i stopped gfo and also removed most algae from refugium...looked like it was receeding on its own...

i currently have no nitrates...but i do have about 1.5 ppm phosphates..

prior to starting the pellets i had undetectable phosphates...

what should i do?

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by larryfl1

hey all,

i have been running pellets for 1 month..i stopped gfo and also removed most algae from refugium...looked like it was receeding on its own...

i currently have no nitrates...but i do have about 1.5 ppm phosphates..

prior to starting the pellets i had undetectable phosphates...

what should i do?

I think you changed too much to quickly , personaly i would kept the refugium with algea and removed the GFO offline when your parameters are stabile (low) for at least a month.
If the phosphstes won't drop i would put GFO back online.

greetingzz tntneon

[ari5736]

After taking my reactor offline on Friday, that has been running for a few months, I measured my NO3 today and it is steady at 15-20ppm. The fact that I feed pretty heavy and that NO3 did not increase to me means that the pellets were not only bringing Nitrate down, but they were not even keeping it steady.

I would like to seed the pellets but am not sure what to seed with. I used MB7 months ago when I first started the pellets, but added the MB7 directly to display and not near pellets.

Bluereefs I'm very interested in to hear how your experiment turns out.

[stevedola]

i see many people have cyano. do you think you could use redslime remover (the product) to help with the issue. I know in the past Ive used it with great results. do you think there would be an issue with using them with the pellets?

just a thought.

[daveonbass]

ARI: I'm with you, after taking my pellets out, for about a week, NOTHING changed still. So the pellets don't do anything. I'm really thinking that the only reason I thought I ever neded the pellets was because my tank went through a mini cycle when I set up my QT and had to remove a large chunck of rock. NO3 went up, balanced out, I did massive water changes, and it hasn't come back up since. Meanwhile the BP were in there all along and never changed anything. So I don't think they every really do much for anyone. (exceptions being tanks that are already successful and can utilize that added C source, and thus expand the already present bacteria colony)

steve: my cyano also had a spike recently, and never went away with the BP. Just last night I put my second MP10 back on the tank (total of two now) and iw was gone in an hour. I didn't know how much that little propeller did till it was gone. I'm not saying this is your problem, my point is simple that the BP had/have nothing to do with it. (perhaps)

so now I plan on doing another water change finally, and manually lowering my NO3. I will continue to run the SWC pellets, but they will only have to deal with the left over NO3 which should be around 5ppm after the water change.

[ari5736]

This morning I removed the top of my offline reactor [smr1 nextreef] because I wanted to see if Bluereefs diy bacteria machine success had anything to do with an open top design. I did not have a chance to really inspect the reactor until later on this evening and at that point when I looked into the reactor the water was very cloudy and super stinky. When the reactor was online it never clouded up the way it is now. So I am not sure if the bloom was caused by having the reactor offline for the weekend, opening the top for the day or both. On a side note, my skimmate has become drastically dryer since reactor was taken offline this past weekend.

My concern is putting the reactor backonline and not causing an in tank bacterial bloom and lesser concern that closing the reactor back up and running it will kill/disipate the bacteria now inhabiting the reactor (I must close the top of this reactor in order for it to run). I could however run the pellets in my sulfur reactor with an open top.

On a different 45 gallon tank I have been running about 1 liter of pellets for the past 2 months and I finally got around to testing the NO3 today, upwards of 60ppm! (granted I do feed almost exclusively frozen mysids a couple of times a day.) I took the reactor offline, unscrewed the top of the reactor, no cloudy water, and no smell whatsoever. I will leave it open for the night and see if there is a bloom in the reactor by tomorrow and report back.

If the pellets need something in the air to activate them, aside from running an open top reactor maybe a venturi on the reactor pump would prove successful. If I got a bacterial bloom from just letting the pellets sit around over the weekend maybe letting the pellets soak in tank water until a bloom occurs is the way to activate. I feel like I may finally be making progress.

My biggest concern at this point is safely putting the reactor backonline, and am not sure how I should go about doing that.

I am considering putting the reactor backonilne.

[TheFishMan65]

I am just guessing here, but the bacteria need oxygen. Right? What if the water doesn't have oxygen when it enters the reactor. Would this keep the bacteria from growing? I really don't understand the acteria cycle, but it could explain the differences.

[sterling18]

Originally Posted by stevedola

i see many people have cyano. do you think you could use redslime remover (the product) to help with the issue. I know in the past Ive used it with great results. do you think there would be an issue with using them with the pellets?

just a thought.

Red slime remover is an antibiotic as cyanobacteria is well, a bacteria.

If you use an antibiotic I believe it will have a negative side effect with the bacteria that lives in the pellets. I wouldn't try it if you're trying to grow the bacteria on the pellets.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

I get the feeling alot of people are really trying to RUSH the results of the NP pellets.... I added mine last week and my water is crystal clear and zeroooo problems with anything..... I am waiting and I feel it will be at least 4 weeks before I even THINKKKKK of looking for any changes or improvements....

Do not count them out till they have run the course and 2 weeks is simply NOT EVEN CLOSE to enough time likely for them to "do their thing"

pATIENCE.

Just a suggestion...I could be wrong.


Tim

[Moser]

Originally Posted by mm.reefs

1+ .

Originally Posted by daveonbass

my comment: the BP don't really do anything. I am starting to firmly believe that it's all the other "regular husbandry" that is paying off. I think that if there is a bacteria bloom, then yeah, maybe there is something working in them there. But I don't recall anyone being able to claim that they STOPPED doing regular husbandry, even just water changes, and still noticed that their water got "better." I have held off doing a WC for weeks now hopeing to see the BP do something in the tank to reduce NO3. And no effects. However, if I had continued to do my regular WC's then I too would have undetectable nutrient levels. I just have not EVER been shown that BP "ALONE" will do anything, the success stories all seem to have too many other variables that could have contributed to the success.

My smaller tank has been running around two years. Initially with heavy bioload and so nitrates have always been around 30.

I switched to zeo about a year ago and got cyano, but nitrates did drop to around 10, with nice SPS colours. I then neglected the tank a bit when i started to work on my bigger system and I got an alk dip from running out of Balling Alk and not checking it. I lost a lot of corals - a mini crash- and left the system with a few softies and some SPS skeletons. I also wonder whether I had some flatworms too.

I switched to NP pellets around 6 months ago and just left them running with the skimmer and nothing else. No water changes, nothing.

One day i noticed some new SPS growth from several of the old skeletons with massive polyp extension. I measured again. Nitrates 0. Phos 0.05. I have recently added rowaphos, but no water changes for nearly six months and i can see the SPS growing almost daily.

I stll need to vacuum a lot of the sand bed, but I did a bit and changed some of the rock and cyano has nearly all gone.

I hear your story, but don't see what you have to lose by adding some pellets in a reactor in the corner of your sump and forget about them. Carry on your normal routine, keep your hands out of the tank and just see what happens.

Biopellets were never supposed to replace normal husbandry or water changes, so i think you're giving them bad press for something they don't claim to offer.

Every system requires good husbandry.

Mo

[daveonbass]

I never said they would replace husbandry, but for sixty bucks plus shipping, I could have got something else, add the reactor and new pump...a lot more something else. They should do something, and trust me I've had these sitting in my tank for long enough...nothing has worked except WC's.

[bluereefs]

This morning I removed the top of my offline reactor [smr1 nextreef] because I wanted to see if Bluereefs diy bacteria machine success had anything to do with an open top design. I did not have a chance to really inspect the reactor until later on this evening and at that point when I looked into the reactor the water was very cloudy and super stinky. When the reactor was online it never clouded up the way it is now. So I am not sure if the bloom was caused by having the reactor offline for the weekend, opening the top for the day or both. On a side note, my skimmate has become drastically dryer since reactor was taken offline this past weekend.

That is good sign, it mean that your bp pellets are working, at least they produce bacteria so maybe you just need to slow the flow throu reactor to get nitrate reduction in aquarium or ad aerization. I would not add this water inside the reactor in aquarium, if is stinky that is hidrogen sulfid and could be dangerous for livestock. I would wash the bp with sea water, remove the smell and put him back on line. I dont know for sure is open top of lack of movement inside the reactor created bacterial bloom but is a good sign that you get bacterial blom because they worked now.

Update of my experiment with the bp in a jars.
BP from functional reactor made water litlle more cloudy and there are more bacterial string around bp after 48 hours.

BP from non functional reactor after 24 hours do nothing, water are still clear, no bacteria string anywhere.

[Moser]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

I never said they would replace husbandry, but for sixty bucks plus shipping, I could have got something else, add the reactor and new pump...a lot more something else. They should do something, and trust me I've had these sitting in my tank for long enough...nothing has worked except WC's.

Just a thought.

Could it be that your frequent large water changes may not let the biology stabilise?.

Mo

[daveonbass]

mo: sorry RC was about to take a nap, so I had to cut short my reply. I hate to still sound so skeptical, but I too (as have many others) have had a tank crash/mini-crash on us and we kind of gave up for a little while. Down but not out. And even the worst of mine, a 6 gallon nano, bounced back, complete with a tiny acro growing that I didn't know existed. The point is that if left long enough many tanks will use up all the nutrients they can and finally support life. AND, all this was happening well before BP had been invented. So again...where's the proof? Why is is so difficult to just add some anyways? Well, it's not terrible except that currently it's costing me an extra pump, so heat, space, noise, electricity, and the room for the reactor as well. Not a huge deal, but I'd like to see something for my efforts is all. :P

but allas...I'm still giving them time. I just did another 50% WC and got my NO3 down to 5-10ppm. PO4 is still undetectable. AND it's finally been a week so I got to add the other half of my SWC pellets. For a total of 250ml of pellets that are tumbleing happily. Maybe they will have an impact on the now lower nitrates, but I'm not gonna hold my breath on it. Wish me luck everyone.

[daveonbass]

Originally Posted by Moser

Just a thought.

Could it be that your frequent large water changes may not let the biology stabilise?.

Mo

I hardly would call 4 WC all year "frequent."

I did three in one week a few months ago, and one last night...so far the reduction in NO3 after the WC's has stayed permanent, with or without the BP. So I think my tank went through a mini-cycle and is now staying stable.

[Moser]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

mo: sorry RC was about to take a nap, so I had to cut short my reply. I hate to still sound so skeptical, but I too (as have many others) have had a tank crash/mini-crash on us and we kind of gave up for a little while. Down but not out. And even the worst of mine, a 6 gallon nano, bounced back, complete with a tiny acro growing that I didn't know existed. The point is that if left long enough many tanks will use up all the nutrients they can and finally support life. AND, all this was happening well before BP had been invented. So again...where's the proof? Why is is so difficult to just add some anyways? Well, it's not terrible except that currently it's costing me an extra pump, so heat, space, noise, electricity, and the room for the reactor as well. Not a huge deal, but I'd like to see something for my efforts is all. :P

but allas...I'm still giving them time. I just did another 50% WC and got my NO3 down to 5-10ppm. PO4 is still undetectable. AND it's finally been a week so I got to add the other half of my SWC pellets. For a total of 250ml of pellets that are tumbleing happily. Maybe they will have an impact on the now lower nitrates, but I'm not gonna hold my breath on it. Wish me luck everyone.

One Question.
Ask on the Zeovit forum if they would recommend weekly 50% water changes.
How are you supposed to develop and sustain a bacterial culture?.

If you mix methodologies, it's unfair to blame one when it's not working. Clearly if 50% WC's was working you wouldn't have decided to use pellets?.

I can't recall your stable nitrate values, but why not try cutting your WC to max 5-10% per week for a few months?.... after all, that is about standard practice for WC?.

Maybe then you will establish a bacterial culture.

Other option is to stop your reactor and leave it full of tank water with no flow for a week or so and see if you get a culture then... I'd be surprised if you didn't.

Still a few options, I think.

Also, ur sure there is no copper wire, rusty screw etc anywhere?...

Mo

[daveonbass]

Originally Posted by Moser

One Question.
Ask on the Zeovit forum if they would recommend weekly 50% water changes.
How are you supposed to develop and sustain a bacterial culture?.

If you mix methodologies, it's unfair to blame one when it's not working. Clearly if 50% WC's was working you wouldn't have decided to use pellets?.

I can't recall your stable nitrate values, but why not try cutting your WC to max 5-10% per week for a few months?.... after all, that is about standard practice for WC?.

Maybe then you will establish a bacterial culture.

Other option is to stop your reactor and leave it full of tank water with no flow for a week or so and see if you get a culture then... I'd be surprised if you didn't.

Still a few options, I think.

Also, ur sure there is no copper wire, rusty screw etc anywhere?...

Mo

I've never done weekly 50% WC's. I had high NO3 of about 80ppm and my corals wouldn't quit dying. So I did three 50% WC over the course of a week. And brought my N levels down to around 10ppm. The corals responded immediately with growth and color. In that one instance I didn't care about bacteria populations, I simply wanted to save my livestock...and I did. Keep in mind that I HAD been running BP for a few weeks with no reaction. After the N drop, still no reaction.

then I didn't do a WC for at least TWO months now. So again, I've probably changed a lot less than the average person that does 5-10% each week. (or bi-weekly) I don't think the zeo users would recommend having nitrates at 80+ppm, and would recommend changing that first over worrying about bacteria levels.

so I don't think you can blame my methodology, I wasn't doing ANY water changes when I started the BP, I was giving them the chance to show some results, and provide food for the corals I did have.

my tank was stable at about 10-15ppm nitrate after the first major WC months ago...till now, now they are at what looks like 5-10ppm.

while waiting for the SWC pellets I was told to take the current BP (original NP) out of the reactor...I was lazy and just turned it off...they sat in the reactor ithe saltwater and no flow for 10 days...no bacteria. (shrug)

there is no copper or wireing. There is nothing in use in the tank that is out of the oridinary for reefers to use. I have and still do test and get zero ppm with a copper test kit. (undetectable)

again, it be nice if the new stuff kicked in.

[daveonbass]

Originally Posted by Moser

If you mix methodologies, it's unfair to blame one when it's not working. Clearly if 50% WC's was working you wouldn't have decided to use pellets?.

Mo

I agree completely, but it works both ways, if you mix methodologies, it's unfair to "give credit" to any particular one when it IS working.

so far NO ONE has used JUST bio pellets to maintain their tank...so how can any of us be sure they are the main source of any successful solution? Even when they "do" work, it's hard to prove that it wasn't from some other source. I suspect it's a combination of events, as are most successes in reef tanks. The "working" BP simply can HELP, but alone will literally do nothing.

if mine start working I swear I'm gonna have some serious back tracking to do...haha. :P