Calcium Acetate

[neoyhng]

Is there anyone using Calcium Acetate as the sole/main calcium replenishment? I am looking for more information on calcium acetate since this seems to be a viable way of coping with high calcium demand.

Many thanks.

Neo NG

[boxfishpooalot]

It would work. I think Salifert uses this(not sure though) but it would also drive bacterial growth.

The acetate is food for bacs.which can drop oxygen if overdosed. Although im not sure on the wieght releative to calcium.

[neoyhng]

Thanks. Frankly I am sick of my CA Reactor (it never works as claimed) and two parts is costing me too much (I am not living in US and have no way buying those cheap chemicals for Randy's 2-part). Calcium Acetate is not too expensive and I can mix it in bulk and use a dosing pump to add it.

[boxfishpooalot]

just beware bacteria will use up oxygen!

Do you have a protein skimmer? You may be limited on the amount of calcium to dose because of this oxygen problem. You can kill your fish with it. But like I said, im not sure about the aceate percentage.

You will also have to use somthing for alkalinity. Calcium acetate will not add alkalinity IIRC.

Maybee wait for Randy to come check this out before you dose

Box

[neoyhng]

Don't worry, I have an "oversized" skimmer and O2 level is not much of a concern to me.

By the way Calcium Acetate should be a "balanced" additive. I read this from here:

www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

Randy, waiting for your expert opinion!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Salifert all in one is largely calcium acetate, and it is an OK way to go with two considerations:

1. cost for adequate purity

and

2. It consumes a lot of O2. I'd add it in the AM, and even better would be added several times throughout the day (or constantly).

In general, I'd prefer to use a balanced two part system, especially since they are often mush less expensive and consume no O2, and allow for pH raising if necessary (or not if it isn't).

Calcium acetate will tend to lower pH.

[FALCON-SA]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Salifert all in one is largely calcium acetate, and it is an OK way to go with two considerations:

1. cost for adequate purity

and

2. It consumes a lot of O2. I'd add it in the AM, and even better would be added several times throughout the day (or constantly).

In general, I'd prefer to use a balanced two part system, especially since they are often mush less expensive and consume no O2, and allow for pH raising if necessary (or not if it isn't).

Calcium acetate will tend to lower pH.

Hi randy how costly was this back when you made this post?

Reason I am asking is that I can get this in south africa for $100 per kilogram for an analytical reaction grade product(lab grade) so would it then be worth it as seeing that it contains carbon i can use a doser to use it to effectively kill two birds with one stone ie adding calcium and keeping nutrients in check.

Please give your view points on this.also costs compare to say a calcium reactor with arm media at the price point indicated.

thanks.

[nanojg]

Doesnt mixing vinegar and lime result in calcium acetate?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, that makes a calcium acetate solution. And it would be a lot cheaper than calcium acetate, which even at $100 per kilogram is very expensive. It may not be stable to bacterial growth, however.

Compare that cost to calcium chloride and lime at a few dollars a kilo.

I see no reason to pay the very high cost for calcium acetate solids.

[FALCON-SA]

Thanks,That sounds chemically correct to me.

Is there anyway to add magnesium into a dosing mixture?I currently dose magnesium chloride but i was hoping for a more balanced easier way to add it into a bulk mixture of kalk/vinegar and add some magnesium chloride into it so that i could make a few months mixture at a time and use when needed?

would this be possible in a wet mix(which i doubt) but i was hoping it would be possible in a dry mix as how do the "all in ones" get it right?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, you can add magnesium chloride or sulfate into calcium acetate solutions.

But remember, calcium acetate solutions themselves will be unstable toward bacterial growth unless they are very concentrated (and possibly even then). So you can't make up a long term batch. Solid dry mixing is fine.

[FALCON-SA]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Yes, you can add magnesium chloride or sulfate into calcium acetate solutions.

But remember, calcium acetate solutions themselves will be unstable toward bacterial growth unless they are very concentrated (and possibly even then). So you can't make up a long term batch. Solid dry mixing is fine.

ok thanks alot randy,so what would be the longest you suggest keeping it?

As for the parts of mgcl to add to the kalk would there be a standard i could use or is the available kalk/mgcl usually varying in actual mol/cm3 content for the particular ion.can i for example use 4 tsp kalk to one tsp mag...or would i need to get the specific contents in the chemicals i buy and work it out from there?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If it is diilute, I'd store it for only a couple of days. It's like sugar water.

Highly concentrated, enough to prevent bacterial growth (I don't know how high that needs to be), it is likely OK, except mold may gropw on top of it.


As for the parts of mgcl to add to the kalk would there be a standard i could use or is the available kalk/mgcl usually varying in actual mol/cm3 content for the particular ion.can i for example use 4 tsp kalk to one tsp mag...or would i need to get the specific contents in the chemicals i buy and work it out from there?

By kalk, do you mean the calcium acetate? You cannot add magnesium to kalkwasser (limewater).

[joao junior]

hi,if i dose this solution,can i rise calcium and magnesium??

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One cannot boost calcium substantially with calcium acetate, because it will push alkalinity too high, and drive a lot of O2 consumption. A 20 ppm boost to calcium will boost alkalinity by 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) so a 50 or 100 ppm boost to calcium is out of the question.

Use calcium chloride for calcium boosting, and magnesium chloride and/or sulfate for magnesium additions.


Calcium acetate is a fine way to add a balanced amount of calcium and alkalinity, however. I review it here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/chemistry

from it:

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar.16 When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3COO- (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3- + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate may also facilitate the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2)16 in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process (but this has not been demonstrated one way or the other). The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3COO- (acetate) + 8 NO3- → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH- + H2O

One of the sources of calcium acetate to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This products sells in the US for about $31.50/L. Consequently, it costs about $10.00 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for a tank with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero initial costs make it attractive for small tanks, especially nano-reef tanks.

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test2). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate.

[FALCON-SA]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

If it is diilute, I'd store it for only a couple of days. It's like sugar water.

Highly concentrated, enough to prevent bacterial growth (I don't know how high that needs to be), it is likely OK, except mold may gropw on top of it.


As for the parts of mgcl to add to the kalk would there be a standard i could use or is the available kalk/mgcl usually varying in actual mol/cm3 content for the particular ion.can i for example use 4 tsp kalk to one tsp mag...or would i need to get the specific contents in the chemicals i buy and work it out from there?

By kalk, do you mean the calcium acetate? You cannot add magnesium to kalkwasser (limewater).

ok i have seen the slight mould on the surface after a few days if the container is not sealed..however none in a sealed container so i'm hoping this could prolong a highly concentrated mix from getting too much bacteria growth,maybe also kept in a dark cool area.

Sorry for not being clear,yes i mean the calcium acetate solution i get by mixing vinegar and kalkwasser,can i add mgcl salts to this and if so then what percent to what percent,i usually use 2 heap teaspoons of kalk(slaked lime from the drug store) to around 30-40ml of vinegar and then dilute it in around 2liters water.
how many teaspoons of mag can i add for it to be balanced?

[bertoni]

The amount of magnesium consumed per unit of calcium can vary from tank to tank, so there's no way to compute the amount your tank will need. I just measured magnesium every few months and supplemented as needed. This article might help:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2003/chem.htm

It shows the consumption rates of a few organisms.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry for not being clear,yes i mean the calcium acetate solution i get by mixing vinegar and kalkwasser

No, I would not add magnesium to that solution since any excess of lime over vinegar (i.e., pH above 7 or so) will result in precipitated magnesium hydroxide

[FALCON-SA]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Sorry for not being clear,yes i mean the calcium acetate solution i get by mixing vinegar and kalkwasser

No, I would not add magnesium to that solution since any excess of lime over vinegar (i.e., pH above 7 or so) will result in precipitated magnesium hydroxide

ok but then our tanks run at ph 8 and higher so how is it that it does not precipitate there when you add mgcl salts directly to the tank?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Two reasons.

#1: Same as calcium carbonate does not precipitate from seawater but does from fresh. It is more soluble in seawater.

#2 If you only made a 1300 ppm magnesium solution, it would not precipitate at pH 8 in fresh water, but would probably be too dilute to be useful.

This graph shows the solubility in fresh water:

Magnesium And Strontium In Limewater
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/12/chemistry

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Try this link for the graph since the above embedded link sometimes doesn't show properly:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003...um/figure4.gif

[FALCON-SA]

thank you randy,it is still not showing though....any chance you can post it here directly?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just click the link in the second post. It is hosted by Advanced Aquarist, which apparently won't permit direct embedding, but once you click on that link, it will also show in the previous post for some reason I do not understand (at least it does on two of my computers).

[andnosobabin]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Just click the link in the second post. It is hosted by Advanced Aquarist, which apparently won't permit direct embedding, but once you click on that link, it will also show in the previous post for some reason I do not understand (at least it does on two of my computers).

Sorry to resurrect an old thread randy but you say there is no point in adding mag to the kalk/vinegar solution unless the pH is 7 or lower. (If I understood you correctly) is there even a feasible way to use this then? I'd assume it would turn a 1 part solution into a 2 part as you would have to dose alk after dosing the cal/mag/vin solution.
I'm asking as I currently use an ato with kalk and vinegar at a 15ml per gal vinegar and about 1/2 tsp per gal kalk. I've managed to keep my levels fairly stable this way. Mostly cuz it's easy so far I assume.



Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[bertoni]

That concentration of Kalk should still cause the magnesium to precipitate. I'd find another route to get magnesium into the system, but you could try a bit of magnesium supplement to see what happens.