20L or 10 reef

cichlidguy4 · 02/14/2006, 07:38 PM

I have had experience with only freshwater. I have been running african cichlid tanks for three years and I have decided to venture inot saltwater. I got advice from the guys in the nano forum to come here. I basicly know nothing about filtration for SW and would like to know which tank I should start with a 20L or 10 gallon, those are my only choices. I need to know eerything about filtration I can learn and from there I am pretty good. Once I can learn about the filtration I would like to know what corals to start with.
I really appreicate the help.
Thanks,
Casey

BurntOutReefer · 02/14/2006, 07:45 PM

yikes!...the hardest and most debated Q IMO...Filtration......
I have used UGFs, Berlin Style, HOB, Canisters, Wet/Dry, LiveRock Skimmer only systems......
They are all good, but they all depend on the time you intend on putting into husbandry.....you are going to hear "dont use this as its a Nitrate factory", dont do that because it will cause your blue eyes to turn green (or whatever that song is).....
so...the bottom line. How much time do you want to spend with basic husbandry....and then work from there....just IMO/IME....ohh...and WELCOME!

BurntOutReefer · 02/14/2006, 07:47 PM

sorry...BTW....the only real filteration difference between FW and SW is the skimmer.........otherwise, all FW filter systems will work with SW....

cichlidguy4 · 02/14/2006, 07:49 PM

I have plenty of time for maintaining the tank if thats what your refering to. I would just like a simple filtration that will work efficently and keep my tank running and keeping everything healthy. I just don't want it to high tech just simple.

One Eyed Bunny · 02/14/2006, 08:43 PM

As for the tank choice. Go with the 20L. Bigger, typically, is better. Also, you'll have more room to fuel your soon to be addiction.

Jon Evans · 02/14/2006, 09:06 PM

get a good protein skimmer, and make sure you use live rock and do partial water changes at least every two weeks, and you should be cool.

cichlidguy4 · 02/14/2006, 09:08 PM

I am just you to hang on the back filters and the like. What should my filter look like on the 20L? Can someone give me a link to skimmers and stuff? I am planning on cycleing with live rock and then adding corals. Also after the filtration what corals would be a good start?
Thank you

hey fishy fishy · 02/14/2006, 09:36 PM

http://asmskimmer.com/

im just getting my tank together as well. these skimmers, according to many users, perform as well as the euroreef but cost about half. why? the plastic they are made with is cheaper, but it doesnt have any impact on performance, just dont use it as a football :0)

the other quality skimmer is the aqua c, said to be the best of the hang-ons (on the back of a tank like a power filter)

for some good info, and a lot of reading, check this thread. quality info from a pro.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=554786

hope it helped you as much as it did me

hff

cichlidguy4 · 02/15/2006, 03:18 PM

Is that all the filtration I would need? Just the 100 dollar skimmer? How exactly do you put it on and how does it function?

Andrew · 02/15/2006, 03:33 PM

Well don't go with just a cheap skimmers. Some good ones are the coralife super skimmers, ASM, Euroreef, Deltec and ect. The Protein skimmers is a good source of filteration for a maine tank and that removes the waste. The cheaper you may, most of the time, you less its going to skim. You can do a search on skimmers in the equipment form for pictures and ect.

Wryknow · 02/15/2006, 03:41 PM

In a typical SW tank the live rock provides most of the filtration in terms of ammonia and nitrite break down. The skimmer removes a lot of the proteins before they have a chance to break down. The first thing that I would recommend for you to do is to buy a decent book. I recommend Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock.

All that you really need for filtration is sufficient live rock, a skimmer, and decent water circulation. A deep sand bed can also be very helpful and inexpensive.

Just remember that a reef set-up requires a much lighter bio-load than a fresh water system can handle. On a 20L tank you may only be able to have 2 or 3 small fish before waste build-up starts to become a real problem for you (there are TONS of variables there though.)

Good luck and enjoy!

cichlidguy4 · 02/15/2006, 09:17 PM

I have one final thing to ask, to sum it all up. Can someone just list all the equipment I should have for my tank? Specificly.

Billy1234 · 02/15/2006, 10:18 PM

Go with the 20L. I have a 20L and now I want a bigger one

. It is 30" long so it makes for a lor a lot of viewing space. On my tank I just have a protein skimmer, and a light. I have a CPR BakPak, which works great for me, Remoras are also excellent though. Get some good live rock, keep up with your water changes, don't make your bio-load too heavy, and you should be good to go.

Good Luck

-Billy

kelly_and_brian · 02/16/2006, 12:42 AM

Here is what I have done, not sure if it is ideal but 8 weeks in to this things are still going in the right direction. {Before you run out and buy this stuff, let some of the more knowledgeable people educate both of us about how I could have done better}

- 10 gallon tank (had this)
- AC 110 modded to be a fuge see nano-reef.com
- 18 watt lights for the fuge
- 96 watt coralife lights
- 2 MaxiJet 600 powerheads with Hydor FLOs
- one bag of the Arag-Alive sand
- about 13 lbs. of live rock
- 2 50 watt stealth heaters in the AC110 since our house is a little chilly this time of year.
- auto topoff from autotopoff.com
- aqualifter pump attached to topoff
- marine test kit, I chose seachem to start with
- thermometer
- Instant Ocean Salt
- Refractometer (Not necessary, but a good idea)

I use "Purified Water" from the store and Instant Ocean salt. So far things have been really stable. With a tank this small, it is easier to budget in buying water over an RO/DI unit. I wouldn't use tap water.

You'll also need a test kit and thermometer. I had the tank, and my guess is that I have spent $250 - $350 to get here. I think some of this investment can be rolled over to the 80 gallon tank that I am planning for my next upgrade. If not, at least the experince will.

Notice no skimmer ... but to pull out the nasties you have to be committed to weekly water changes. I'm only doing a gallon a week and so far it is a pretty trivial task. I was evaporating about 1/4" per day (~1 gallon/week) and was doing daily top offs until the auto topoff was installed. I have heard mixed reviews for the nano sized skimmers so I decided to wait until more entered the market.

Hope this helps. I did make one mistake I should warn you about. If you put this much light on a tank this shallow, you should get some plastic grid and window screen and create 3 - 4 layers so you can ease things (including the coraline on your rock) into this much light. I bleached my coarline, it sucked. 3 weeks later my rocks still look somewhat snow capped, but some coraline is growing back.

I don't know how much info you want, but I set this tank up and waited at least a month for the cycle to complete before adding some blue legged hermit crabs, and then a couple weeks later I added a frogspawn coral. So far I have been lucky, but the frogspawn was not the best choice for a first coral.

I have really enjoyed the amount of life in this tank, and it is small enough you notice all of the little creatures that show up. There are all sorts of things in there that I can not identify, but all the big stuff is still alive so I am ok with all of the worms and bugs and snail things ... it is neat how often you find something new. I had freashwater before this and those tanks are dead compared to the abundance of life in my little 10 gallon reef.

cichlidguy4 · 02/16/2006, 05:52 PM

I have decided I am getting the 20L and my LFS is haveing a 20% off sale so I might be getting it soon. I am 14 so money doesn't come easy. I am going to look into some skimmers and start from there once I get the sand and LR in. Thanks for all the help. I can never use enough so if there is anything you think tthat could be added please post.

cichlidguy4 · 02/16/2006, 07:18 PM

Do I need another tank or something for the skimmer to drain to? I am still clueless about skimers.

Andrew · 02/16/2006, 07:21 PM

If you get a hang on back skimmer, you don't need a sump for the skimmer. If you get a skimmer such as the ASM you will need a sump. I have two skimmers in my sump. Maybe this picture will help some:

cichlidguy4 · 02/16/2006, 07:27 PM

Ok. I am trying to keep it simple so I think I will find a good hang on the back skimmer. Any suggestions?

Andrew · 02/16/2006, 07:29 PM

coralife super skimmers work good. ( in my picture I have a coralife super skimmer. Its the one on the left. I use mine in my sump but they can also hang on your tank. Look through this thread for pictures and info on this skimmer:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1

Billy1234 · 02/16/2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cichlidguy4
Ok. I am trying to keep it simple so I think I will find a good hang on the back skimmer. Any suggestions?

The 2 most common, fairly cheap (and good quality) skimmers are the CPR BakPak, and the AquaC Remora, which may be even better. They are both simple HOB skimmers for a fairly good price. On MarineDepot the BakPak is $128, and the Remora is $164. The prices are fair considering that these are both great skimmers.

Thanks for all the help. I can never use enough so if there is anything you think tthat could be added please post.

One important piece of advice I can give:
Don't listen your LFS (Local Fish Store). They will sell you anything to to make money off you. If see something you like, ask here first. The more knowledgable peple will steer you in the right direction. And when you go to your LFS, leave your wallet home

cichlidguy4 · 02/17/2006, 01:48 PM

Ya I started with cichlids from a forum and I have found it very helpful to get advice from all the knowledgeable people on here and the other forum rather than the LFS. I know 100x more about cichlids than anyone at my LFS but I tend to go to one that only sells cichlid. The people there I know and they are very smart and they know what they are talking about. At the petmart I go to here in Tampa for supplies, srictly supplies no way fish, I ask questions and they will not really know what they are talking about. A few people there do know what there talking about but not many.
I will look into those skimmers.

cichlidguy4 · 02/17/2006, 02:03 PM

I am still a little confused about skimmers. If anyone has hang on the back skimmers with out a sump please post pics. Also I look at the CPR bakpak and I am thinking about that skimmer or the coralife 65. Whick one is my question? And what is a good powerhead?

Billy1234 · 02/17/2006, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cichlidguy4
I am still a little confused about skimmers. If anyone has hang on the back skimmers with out a sump please post pics. Also I look at the CPR bakpak and I am thinking about that skimmer or the coralife 65. Whick one is my question? And what is a good powerhead?

I would go with the BakPak.. it has 2 clear, simple chambers, and is easy to clean. Here are 2 pics of my BakPak- not the greatest pics though, but you'll get the idea

cichlidguy4 · 02/17/2006, 05:07 PM

OK. Thanks now I have read about them and that picture helped. Now what would be a good powerhead?

cichlidguy4 · 02/17/2006, 07:09 PM

To add to the above I have another question. What are some good cheaper lighting fixtures and bulbs? Also it has just come to me that it could be cheaper and easier to get a 12 gallon nano cube. Am I right?

02/14/2006, 07:38 PM	#1
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	20L or 10 reef I have had experience with only freshwater. I have been running african cichlid tanks for three years and I have decided to venture inot saltwater. I got advice from the guys in the nano forum to come here. I basicly know nothing about filtration for SW and would like to know which tank I should start with a 20L or 10 gallon, those are my only choices. I need to know eerything about filtration I can learn and from there I am pretty good. Once I can learn about the filtration I would like to know what corals to start with. I really appreicate the help. Thanks, Casey

02/14/2006, 09:06 PM	#6
Jon Evans Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massillon, OH Posts: 297	get a good protein skimmer, and make sure you use live rock and do partial water changes at least every two weeks, and you should be cool. __________________ If you are in the stock market, look to diversify your portfolio with global equities. Warren Buffett said so. Current Tank Info: 75 gallon FOWLR tank with 20 gal sump/fuge

02/15/2006, 03:41 PM	#11
Wryknow Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,203	In a typical SW tank the live rock provides most of the filtration in terms of ammonia and nitrite break down. The skimmer removes a lot of the proteins before they have a chance to break down. The first thing that I would recommend for you to do is to buy a decent book. I recommend Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock. All that you really need for filtration is sufficient live rock, a skimmer, and decent water circulation. A deep sand bed can also be very helpful and inexpensive. Just remember that a reef set-up requires a much lighter bio-load than a fresh water system can handle. On a 20L tank you may only be able to have 2 or 3 small fish before waste build-up starts to become a real problem for you (there are TONS of variables there though.) Good luck and enjoy! __________________ You cannot use reason to change the opinion of a person that did not use reason to form their opinion in the first place. Current Tank Info: 65 G RR, w/ 50 G sump/refugium, DIY LED lighting, AquaMaxx CO-1 skimmer, Tunze 1073.050 return

02/15/2006, 10:18 PM	#13
Billy1234 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 417	Go with the 20L. I have a 20L and now I want a bigger one . It is 30" long so it makes for a lor a lot of viewing space. On my tank I just have a protein skimmer, and a light. I have a CPR BakPak, which works great for me, Remoras are also excellent though. Get some good live rock, keep up with your water changes, don't make your bio-load too heavy, and you should be good to go. Good Luck -Billy __________________ "Your mom goes to college." Current Tank Info: 20g

02/17/2006, 02:03 PM	#22
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	I am still a little confused about skimmers. If anyone has hang on the back skimmers with out a sump please post pics. Also I look at the CPR bakpak and I am thinking about that skimmer or the coralife 65. Whick one is my question? And what is a good powerhead? Last edited by cichlidguy4; 02/17/2006 at 02:49 PM.

02/14/2006, 07:45 PM	#2
BurntOutReefer Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Granada Hills Posts: 4,376	yikes!...the hardest and most debated Q IMO...Filtration...... I have used UGFs, Berlin Style, HOB, Canisters, Wet/Dry, LiveRock Skimmer only systems...... They are all good, but they all depend on the time you intend on putting into husbandry.....you are going to hear "dont use this as its a Nitrate factory", dont do that because it will cause your blue eyes to turn green (or whatever that song is)..... so...the bottom line. How much time do you want to spend with basic husbandry....and then work from there....just IMO/IME....ohh...and WELCOME!

02/14/2006, 07:47 PM	#3
BurntOutReefer Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Granada Hills Posts: 4,376	sorry...BTW....the only real filteration difference between FW and SW is the skimmer.........otherwise, all FW filter systems will work with SW....

02/14/2006, 07:49 PM	#4
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	I have plenty of time for maintaining the tank if thats what your refering to. I would just like a simple filtration that will work efficently and keep my tank running and keeping everything healthy. I just don't want it to high tech just simple.

02/14/2006, 08:43 PM	#5
One Eyed Bunny Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Poughquag, New York Posts: 143	As for the tank choice. Go with the 20L. Bigger, typically, is better. Also, you'll have more room to fuel your soon to be addiction.

02/14/2006, 09:08 PM	#7
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	I am just you to hang on the back filters and the like. What should my filter look like on the 20L? Can someone give me a link to skimmers and stuff? I am planning on cycleing with live rock and then adding corals. Also after the filtration what corals would be a good start? Thank you

02/14/2006, 09:36 PM	#8
hey fishy fishy Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: www Posts: 80	http://asmskimmer.com/ im just getting my tank together as well. these skimmers, according to many users, perform as well as the euroreef but cost about half. why? the plastic they are made with is cheaper, but it doesnt have any impact on performance, just dont use it as a football :0) the other quality skimmer is the aqua c, said to be the best of the hang-ons (on the back of a tank like a power filter) for some good info, and a lot of reading, check this thread. quality info from a pro. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=554786 hope it helped you as much as it did me hff

02/15/2006, 03:18 PM	#9
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	Is that all the filtration I would need? Just the 100 dollar skimmer? How exactly do you put it on and how does it function?

02/15/2006, 03:33 PM	#10
Andrew Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 13,640	Well don't go with just a cheap skimmers. Some good ones are the coralife super skimmers, ASM, Euroreef, Deltec and ect. The Protein skimmers is a good source of filteration for a maine tank and that removes the waste. The cheaper you may, most of the time, you less its going to skim. You can do a search on skimmers in the equipment form for pictures and ect.

02/15/2006, 09:17 PM	#12
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	I have one final thing to ask, to sum it all up. Can someone just list all the equipment I should have for my tank? Specificly.

02/16/2006, 12:42 AM	#14
kelly_and_brian Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Central Valley, CA, USA Posts: 20	Here is what I have done, not sure if it is ideal but 8 weeks in to this things are still going in the right direction. {Before you run out and buy this stuff, let some of the more knowledgeable people educate both of us about how I could have done better} - 10 gallon tank (had this) - AC 110 modded to be a fuge see nano-reef.com - 18 watt lights for the fuge - 96 watt coralife lights - 2 MaxiJet 600 powerheads with Hydor FLOs - one bag of the Arag-Alive sand - about 13 lbs. of live rock - 2 50 watt stealth heaters in the AC110 since our house is a little chilly this time of year. - auto topoff from autotopoff.com - aqualifter pump attached to topoff - marine test kit, I chose seachem to start with - thermometer - Instant Ocean Salt - Refractometer (Not necessary, but a good idea) I use "Purified Water" from the store and Instant Ocean salt. So far things have been really stable. With a tank this small, it is easier to budget in buying water over an RO/DI unit. I wouldn't use tap water. You'll also need a test kit and thermometer. I had the tank, and my guess is that I have spent $250 - $350 to get here. I think some of this investment can be rolled over to the 80 gallon tank that I am planning for my next upgrade. If not, at least the experince will. Notice no skimmer ... but to pull out the nasties you have to be committed to weekly water changes. I'm only doing a gallon a week and so far it is a pretty trivial task. I was evaporating about 1/4" per day (~1 gallon/week) and was doing daily top offs until the auto topoff was installed. I have heard mixed reviews for the nano sized skimmers so I decided to wait until more entered the market. Hope this helps. I did make one mistake I should warn you about. If you put this much light on a tank this shallow, you should get some plastic grid and window screen and create 3 - 4 layers so you can ease things (including the coraline on your rock) into this much light. I bleached my coarline, it sucked. 3 weeks later my rocks still look somewhat snow capped, but some coraline is growing back. I don't know how much info you want, but I set this tank up and waited at least a month for the cycle to complete before adding some blue legged hermit crabs, and then a couple weeks later I added a frogspawn coral. So far I have been lucky, but the frogspawn was not the best choice for a first coral. I have really enjoyed the amount of life in this tank, and it is small enough you notice all of the little creatures that show up. There are all sorts of things in there that I can not identify, but all the big stuff is still alive so I am ok with all of the worms and bugs and snail things ... it is neat how often you find something new. I had freashwater before this and those tanks are dead compared to the abundance of life in my little 10 gallon reef.

02/16/2006, 05:52 PM	#15
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	I have decided I am getting the 20L and my LFS is haveing a 20% off sale so I might be getting it soon. I am 14 so money doesn't come easy. I am going to look into some skimmers and start from there once I get the sand and LR in. Thanks for all the help. I can never use enough so if there is anything you think tthat could be added please post.

02/16/2006, 07:18 PM	#16
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	Do I need another tank or something for the skimmer to drain to? I am still clueless about skimers.

02/16/2006, 07:21 PM	#17
Andrew Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 13,640	If you get a hang on back skimmer, you don't need a sump for the skimmer. If you get a skimmer such as the ASM you will need a sump. I have two skimmers in my sump. Maybe this picture will help some:

02/16/2006, 07:27 PM	#18
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	Ok. I am trying to keep it simple so I think I will find a good hang on the back skimmer. Any suggestions?

02/16/2006, 07:29 PM	#19
Andrew Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 13,640	coralife super skimmers work good. ( in my picture I have a coralife super skimmer. Its the one on the left. I use mine in my sump but they can also hang on your tank. Look through this thread for pictures and info on this skimmer: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1

02/17/2006, 01:48 PM	#21
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	Ya I started with cichlids from a forum and I have found it very helpful to get advice from all the knowledgeable people on here and the other forum rather than the LFS. I know 100x more about cichlids than anyone at my LFS but I tend to go to one that only sells cichlid. The people there I know and they are very smart and they know what they are talking about. At the petmart I go to here in Tampa for supplies, srictly supplies no way fish, I ask questions and they will not really know what they are talking about. A few people there do know what there talking about but not many. I will look into those skimmers.

02/17/2006, 05:07 PM	#24
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	OK. Thanks now I have read about them and that picture helped. Now what would be a good powerhead?

02/17/2006, 07:09 PM	#25
cichlidguy4 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Tampa Posts: 16	To add to the above I have another question. What are some good cheaper lighting fixtures and bulbs? Also it has just come to me that it could be cheaper and easier to get a 12 gallon nano cube. Am I right? Last edited by cichlidguy4; 02/17/2006 at 07:40 PM.