Porcupine fish and live food

[moviegeek]

What's the general consensus on porcupine fish and feeding them live foods -- specifically, feeder fish (I was thinking small green chromis, since they are cheap and constantly available).

The chromis wouldn't be the only food, of course -- maybe twice a month, tops. I recently got a new porcupine fish and am having trouble getting it to start feeding on frozen shrimp, clams, oysters and was considering putting a green chromis in to see if the porcupine puffer would start feeding.

[Pam]

I don't encourage that. The Porky will in time get very large and you don't want him to eat his tankmates.
How about: rock lobster/crayfish, fiddler crab or ghost/glass shrimp. These are freshwater critters that will survive for a while in salt. These are more his natural diet - crustations, although they will sample anything they see.
How big is he now? How long have you given him to settle in?
pam

[moviegeek]

Thanks Pam. The rock lobster/crayfish sounds like a good idea.

Do you really think freshwater shrimp are more of the Porcupine's "natural diet" than small saltwater fish? I've always been hesitant to give saltwater fish freshwater food.

Sugar Cube (my girlfriend named the porcupine since its her Christmas present) is right at 4" in size. She's a Hawaiian porcupine -- the smaller kind of porcupine with a yellowish rather than brown/gray coloration. I bought rescued her from Petco Tuesday (first purchase there in a year) because I was pretty sure she would die if I didn't step in. I haven't fed her yet -- she rejected a small piece of shrimp. She is in a 20G tank w/ 30 lbs. of fully cured live rock that I've had for 3 months.

[Pam]

Hi Moviegeek;

Yeah, some crustys or shellfish are required to keep the teeth worn down. Mushed/dented live mussel or oyster is an efficient tooth filer. Frozen shell on shrimp is a semi regular staple so that it doesn't become an issue.
I think that the fresh vs salt debate matters more for constant diet. I concider the live stuff candy. These guys are heavy feeders. You'll spend alot on the frozen shrimp alone. Curious did you cut up the shrimp? They seem to respond to the shape.
20 gallons is way small for her. If she is a D. holocanthus or D. histrex(sp?) she will grow to a foot long or more and in the meanwhile she will be a heavy polluter which is hard to handle in a small body of water. You had best add a very large sump 30+ gallons to tide you through.
My but aren't they sweethearts.
Hope that you have a Merry.
Pam

[Q-ball]

MG...I got a wonderful little (5") masked dog-face puffer a week ago. At first, all he would accept were frozen (thawed) silversides. Once he got used to me being around, and dipping my long handled pinchers in the tank w/ his food (I have to get the food pretty close to him, he shares the tank with a volitan lion who is quite a hog!) he now accepts dried krill as well. I was wondering what I should give him to eat to file down the teeth, the mussel's & oysters sound like a good idea, I'll be picking some up for him soon. BTW, my wife named this guy "Snoopy", hehe.

Q

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wife: "What's it going to cost THIS time?"

[Pam]

Hi Q;

Congratulations on the new pup! They seem much easier to settle in than the Porkys. Every bit as sweet... I have one that has learned to wink. May he bring you nothing but joy.
Pam

[bigdogpaul]

I have a porcupine puffer as well, and I just moved him into my reef tank (150 gal) from the 20 gal tank. He seems very happy but I've been warned that he'll eat my sponges etc. to keep his teeth filed down. The thing that really strikes me about this fish is his personality. He'll actually swim into my hand and let me lift him up. He's got such a great personality I'm going to keep him as long as I can. When he does some damage I'll move hi back into the 20 gal until he outgrows it.

Paul :-)

[goby boy]

agree with bigdogpaul..

i have one porcupine too..and it swims to the top of the surface when I am going to feed..............when he stays on the bottom or hide in the cave..all i have to do is tap on glass and it will come out..just like a dog..

[Q-ball]

thanks Pam, yeah, He's a beauty! He's already eating right out of my hand. And I must say, he's gotta be the most polite fish I've ever fed...He comes up to the top, takes a nice soft, non-aggressive bite out of the shrimp or fish that I'm holding, backs off a few inches to chew his mouthful, then comes back & repeats til it's gone. And he never speaks with his mouth full either! My lionfish that's in with him, he just gulps everything down as fast as he can. Quite rude actually! hehe Between the two of them, I've seen more personality in a fish than I've ever seen in over 4 years of keeping them! I'm really happy with these too. There's also an Odontis Niger Trigger in there, he's extremely shy. When he was in there with the lion only, he'd hide most of the day (the lion is twice his size!). Now, with Snoopy in there, the trigger seems to feel alot more comfortable and is out & about much more often. I know one thing, in a few years, these guys are gonna need alot bigger tank! LOL!!!

Q

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wife: "What's it going to cost THIS time?"

[moviegeek]

Disaster...

For the past few days I've been discussing with my girlfriend, somewhat vaguely, the dietary necessities of her new pet porcupine, Sugar Cube. I mentioned live food as an occasional treat, and told her that live shrimp may be good. I also mentioned that some fish like other fish as live food, thinking of the feeder guppies and goldfish at the LFS (although I didn't mention this to her).

So I came home Thursday to see [insert ominous music] a very dead but still very poisonous 1.5" coral catfish impaled on Sugar Cube's (4" porcupine)face. Thinking catfish taste good to her, my girlfriend picked up a poisonous fish that Sugar Cube quickly killed and tried to eat. The porcupine shredded the coral cat's body pretty good -- but don't know for sure if any of it was eaten.

Using tweezers I pulled the coral cat off (one poisoned barb from the cat was impaled in the porcupine's face). Sugar Cube's beak/ left eye area has been swollen with clear fluid pouches since Thursday, although the swelling goes down a bit every day.

Sugar Cube ate a piece of fresh shrimp today.

Examining her closely tonight, I noticed that the coral cat's poisoned barb is still impaled in the porcupine's face. The barb is sliver size. Only about 1/8" of the barb protrudes from the porcupine's face.

There is swelling, but Sugar Cube is swimming actively and fed today for the first time since purchasing her less than a week ago.

What do you think? Should I try to remove the poisoned barb with a pair of tweezers? I think I could lure Sugar Cube to the surface with some shrimp and try -- will I squeeze more poison out of the barb if I apply pressure?

Has anyone else ever seen a fish impaled by a coral cat's barb? What would you do?

(And yes, I've told my girlfriend not to put anything in my tanks without first talking to me about it)

[Pam]

Plotosus lineatus is listed by Scott Michael as: Although some larger perdators prey upon the Striped Eel Catfish, their sharp fin spines with associated venom glands can deliver a painful and potentially dangerous string. ... Being stuck by the spine of a smaller fish, however, has been compared to the sting of a wasp. (Apply heat to human wounds) So the good news is that the fish is not poisonous beyond the vernom.
Now on my speculation... If you cannot see a bulb on the end of the bard, then any venom remaining could only be in the barb. If you think that you can scratch or tweezer it out you can give it a try. However should Sugar Cube blow herself up the skin will become too tight to work with and the spine if it is barbed may be drawn further in. Their fins even get shorter as the skin goes out. You should only try once, if you try, rather than keep trying until she inflates.
Since she has made it this long and shows signs of improvement I would personally take a watchful waiting approach unless it stuck out quite a ways or she started flashing. She sounds hardy to me.
My sympathy goes out to all of you keep us updated.
Pam

[moviegeek]

Thanks Pam. You seem to be the puffer/porcupine guru.

Well, the good news is the swelling has gone down substantially -- its isolated to about a 1/8 inch area under the eye. Sugar Cube ate shrimp again today, also.

Yesterday there did appear to be a small bulb/venom sack at the end of the barb. Today, however, the bulb is gone and it kinda looks like the barb might be disintegrating where the bulb was. Perhaps it is rotting or maybe Sugar Cube has been rubbing the barb against rocks. Dunno. The rest of the barb doesn't appear to be disintegrating.

I'll get my courage up this weekend and make one attempt at pulling the barb out. Without the bulb tip it is very tiny. Doesn't look like the venom is going to hurt Sugar Cube in the long run. Looks like she'll have a battle scar for the rest of her life.

Thanks again for all the input everyone.

[Pam]

Hi MG;
Glad to hear everthing is going so well. The spine may well be disolved by the weekend... there is much to be said for patience.
I'm no guru yet, just a fanatic I have 4 tanks devoted to these guys and they have full pet status. The predicaments that they can get themselves into fill me with awe. They are just so curious.
Pam

[moviegeek]

Pam,

Would you be willing to exchange e-mail? I am quickly becoming a puffer "fanatic" myself. I think I would benefit from your experience. My e-mail is moviegeek@hotmail.com

I am trying to find a tank mate for the 4" porcupine -- is another puffer asking for trouble compatibility-wise? The tank is only a 20G, but I have a 29 gallon without fish hooked up to my 37 gallon reef that I am planning on moving Sugar Cube to when she's bigger.

Also, Sugar Cube is a very messy eater. Shrimp bits litter the floor of her tank every day after feeding. I made a spraybar pointed at the botton of the tank (no substrate). This seems to help, but there's a lot of rotting shrimp still. Do you know of any scavenger fish or inverts that would help clean up the shrimp bits that won't become food? I put a handful of small hermits in for now (Sugar Cube hasn't killed any yet...only a matter of time though).

Thanks again Pam!

The

[Pam]

Hi MG;
By all means do feel free to email me, the drawback would be that others will also have suggestions/corrections that could help all of us out.
Properly introduced the only fish that I have lost to a porky was a cleaner wrasse which are a bad idea anyway. The CW is too aggressive about cleaning; Cleaner Gobies do work well. I wonder if the similarity is what killed the coral cat? Tangs seem to take great pleasure flashing/slashing Puffers so I rule them out for the puffers' benefit. Shrimp and urchins don't stand a chance. Very large starfish are ok but little ones will be "sampled", cushion stars have the best chance. Snails and small hermits seem to be concidered too much work and last a fair while.
Given the size of the tank how about a Pygmy Angel (argi) or a Toby (Canthigaster)? The latter I don't find as personnable as the larger puffers but they are great little scavengers with large appetites. Assuming that you have rocks in there, after you acclimate the new fish net them in to the rocks and leave the net in for extra protection for an hour or so to guard the entry.
This is all IMHO etc. so anyone else chime in.
Pam

[Q-ball]

MG & Pam, My puffer is in a 90g tank w/ a 5" volitan lion (Mufasa) & a 2.5" ondontis niger trigger (Odie). Mufasa was a bit less than impressed when I added Snoopy to the tank, but is ok with the situation now. Odie was an extremely shy fish prior to adding Snoopy, he hid in his cave alot. I think he was scared of Mufasa, since he is twice as big! I suggest a trigger of some sort, although my niger trigger seems to be the most non-aggressive trigger I've ever experienced. Tank room is a big concern here though. With these 3 fish, I am looking at having to get them a 200g or larger tank in the future. HTH,

Q

PS if you guys get a email chain going on puffer's, I'd love to be a part of it as well. crider@pa.net

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wife: "What's it going to cost THIS time?"

[Pam]

Hi Q;

We certainly will include you if anything gets going but I feel that this is a better forum, there generally are more readers than posters and something may apply to other fish as well. Given that Paul and Goby Boy (as well as unknown others) have also fallen into Puffer love the answer is probably multiple threads.As far as I can tell fanatics are welcome here and you are not likely to get flamed however strange a question is. (Note: There is a dwarf porcupine out of Hawaii which I suspect is what MG has. I'll post the name when the book resurfaces.)
I am not comfortable with the role of leader/guru having only been in the hobby for a few years and encourage others to pipe up with their suggestions.
Pam

[moviegeek]

Pam -

My porcupine Sugar Cube is from Hawaii (the owner of the most reputable LFS in town says so FWIW). I don't know if it is a "dwarf" porcupine, but the owner says they max out at 5-6" in length. I've only seen two for sale (and had to buy one): mine is 3.5-4", the other was about 5" and was supposedly "full grown" (so says the LFS).

I don't have a scientific name, but I'll post it if I find out. It was sold as a "Hawaiian Porcupine Puffer."

BTW, your earlier suggestion for a dwarf angel sounds good. Would the lack of a sandy substrate be a problem if I added a large Linkia star?

I agree this is the best forum for discussions, but the reason I wanted to e-mail you was because I don't know how long posts remain available here. I'll only e-mail you if I don't see you pipping in to porcupine related threads.

[Pam]

I have been looking everywhere for those guys. It is likely the Diodon orbiculatus. If you know of anywhere that would ship some to Canada I would be most grateful.
Dwarf is a relative term, the other guys get to be 18". This is why many jaws dropped when you said that she lived in a 20 gallon tank. Some are just a bit more subtle than I was.
I emailed Larry about the thread and he said that it would likely be archived. You do know how to save a thread to disk? (File>Save as) Larry is very tolerant and is genuinely happy to provide the forum for all things marine.

As to the Linkia star; would someone who has experience with bare bottom tanks please respond?
Pam