hard water, softeners, dirty pre-filters, effects on water chemistry???? with pics!

stan zemanek · 02/06/2010, 02:04 PM

OK guys I'll fess up, I didn't pay attention in chemistry class. Hopefully those of you who did can answer some of my questions. My wife and I built are house about 7 years ago and the building department told us we had to install a water softner because we had hard water. So we did. Now for those of you who have water softners you know what soft water feels like. Kind of silky or almost like you never get the soap completly rinsed off of you when you take a shower. Thats what are water has felt like up until about a year ago.
Now heres the thing, about a year ago our water stopped having that silky feeling, althought the salt level in our water softner kept going down. At the same time i started loosing corals for some reason while all my water parameters stayed in check. I attributed the coral loss to all the dust I was making in the while finishing off the basement, not even considering trouble with the softner.
Now even when my softner was working properly my pre-filter on my R/O unit would get a rust color real fast. So I had my plumber install a larger pre-filter on the exit side of the softner in hopes of cleaning the water a little befor it got to the R/O unit.
So after you guys look at the pics I guess my questions are.
Do water softners go bad but continue to use salt?
What effect does soft water have on the aquarium?
Do I really need to use soft water?
What the hell is the stuff causing my filters to turn rust color?
What exactly is hard water?
Does hard water effect the level of calcium and alkalinity in the aquarium?
Here is a pic of my softner with sediment filter insatlled on exit side

Here is a pic of the sediment filter outside the housing.

here is the old one next to a new one for comparison.

here is a pic of my R/O unit showing 1 week old sediment filter

The sediment filter by the softner I have to change out about once a month and the one in the R/O unit I change every 2 months.
Thanks guys for all you help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/06/2010, 02:58 PM

FWIW, my sediment filters have always looked that way. It is iron oxide in the water. In my case, it is from my and the water supply's pipes.

The hardness or softness of the water impacts the lifespan of the RO/DI, but not the suitability of the product water if it is 0 ppm TDS.

stan zemanek · 02/06/2010, 03:07 PM

Thanks Randy!!!!!!! So I am assuming that you don't think there is a correlation between the performance of the softner and the loss of my corals? Bt the way the TDS have always read zero out of the tap.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/06/2010, 04:14 PM

Well, if the TDS was always 0 ppm, no. If it rose from a depleted DI releasing ions, then possibly yes.

reefman30 · 02/06/2010, 05:13 PM

If the water sofener stoped working then you should have noticed water spots on things and more soap scum in the tub/shower. If the automated part of the sofener stoped working correctly it could possibly still be using salt and not charging the resin in the sofener. It is probably just dumping the salt water charge down the drain. Get someone to come check it out.

You have 0 tds out of the tap?? Why have a ro if you have 0 tds out of the tap?

Psychographic · 02/06/2010, 06:36 PM

Wouldn't the iron in the water show up as something on a TDS meter?

bertoni · 02/06/2010, 06:42 PM

Iron will show up in the TDS, if there's enough of it. Maybe you meant zero TDS out of the RO/DI unit, not out of the tap?

Psychographic · 02/06/2010, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bertoni

Maybe you meant zero TDS out of the RO/DI unit, not out of the tap?

Nope

Quote:

Originally Posted by stan zemanek

Bt the way the TDS have always read zero out of the tap.

bertoni · 02/06/2010, 09:52 PM

Sorry, I was asking Stan about the TDS.

Buckeye Hydro · 02/07/2010, 07:47 AM

[QUOTEhere is a pic of my R/O unit showing 1 week old sediment filter

The sediment filter by the softner I have to change out about once a month and the one in the R/O unit I change every 2 months.
Thanks guys for all you help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Hmm. I don't see a sediment filter in that system. Looks like you have 3 carbon blocks and a DI on the left.

Buckeye Hydro · 02/07/2010, 07:55 AM

You are doing the right thing by supplying the softened water to the RODI system. The iron in your water that discolors your sediment filter is often removed with a softener - doesn't look like your's is removing it weel.. You may have more iron in the eater than your softener can handle.

By the way - RO membranes don't tolerate exposure to iron well. You might want to check the membrane performance.

Do you ever notice a slimy, almost gel-like substance on the filter cartridges after they have turned orange?

Russ

Randy Holmes-Farley · 02/07/2010, 08:43 AM

Do you ever notice a slimy, almost gel-like substance on the filter cartridges after they have turned orange?

That is what, Russ, bacteria?

reefman30 · 02/07/2010, 09:21 AM

The right one looks like one of those filters made out of string.

Buckeye Hydro · 02/07/2010, 09:27 AM

Yep - a bacterial slime - a.k.a."iron bacteria"

Buckeye Hydro · 02/07/2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefman30

The right one looks like one of those filters made out of string.

I zoomed in and I think you're right. At my first quick glance it looked like a carbon block. My mistake.

Russ

02/06/2010, 02:04 PM	#1
stan zemanek Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: new jersey Posts: 524	hard water, softeners, dirty pre-filters, effects on water chemistry???? with pics! OK guys I'll fess up, I didn't pay attention in chemistry class. Hopefully those of you who did can answer some of my questions. My wife and I built are house about 7 years ago and the building department told us we had to install a water softner because we had hard water. So we did. Now for those of you who have water softners you know what soft water feels like. Kind of silky or almost like you never get the soap completly rinsed off of you when you take a shower. Thats what are water has felt like up until about a year ago. Now heres the thing, about a year ago our water stopped having that silky feeling, althought the salt level in our water softner kept going down. At the same time i started loosing corals for some reason while all my water parameters stayed in check. I attributed the coral loss to all the dust I was making in the while finishing off the basement, not even considering trouble with the softner. Now even when my softner was working properly my pre-filter on my R/O unit would get a rust color real fast. So I had my plumber install a larger pre-filter on the exit side of the softner in hopes of cleaning the water a little befor it got to the R/O unit. So after you guys look at the pics I guess my questions are. Do water softners go bad but continue to use salt? What effect does soft water have on the aquarium? Do I really need to use soft water? What the hell is the stuff causing my filters to turn rust color? What exactly is hard water? Does hard water effect the level of calcium and alkalinity in the aquarium? Here is a pic of my softner with sediment filter insatlled on exit side Here is a pic of the sediment filter outside the housing. here is the old one next to a new one for comparison. here is a pic of my R/O unit showing 1 week old sediment filter The sediment filter by the softner I have to change out about once a month and the one in the R/O unit I change every 2 months. Thanks guys for all you help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

02/06/2010, 02:58 PM	#2
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	FWIW, my sediment filters have always looked that way. It is iron oxide in the water. In my case, it is from my and the water supply's pipes. The hardness or softness of the water impacts the lifespan of the RO/DI, but not the suitability of the product water if it is 0 ppm TDS. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/06/2010, 04:14 PM	#4
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Well, if the TDS was always 0 ppm, no. If it rose from a depleted DI releasing ions, then possibly yes. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/06/2010, 06:42 PM	#7
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Iron will show up in the TDS, if there's enough of it. Maybe you meant zero TDS out of the RO/DI unit, not out of the tap? __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/06/2010, 09:52 PM	#9
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Sorry, I was asking Stan about the TDS. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/06/2010, 03:07 PM	#3
stan zemanek Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: new jersey Posts: 524	Thanks Randy!!!!!!! So I am assuming that you don't think there is a correlation between the performance of the softner and the loss of my corals? Bt the way the TDS have always read zero out of the tap.

02/06/2010, 05:13 PM	#5
reefman30 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Midland, Texas Posts: 137	If the water sofener stoped working then you should have noticed water spots on things and more soap scum in the tub/shower. If the automated part of the sofener stoped working correctly it could possibly still be using salt and not charging the resin in the sofener. It is probably just dumping the salt water charge down the drain. Get someone to come check it out. You have 0 tds out of the tap?? Why have a ro if you have 0 tds out of the tap?

02/06/2010, 06:36 PM	#6
Psychographic Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 439	Wouldn't the iron in the water show up as something on a TDS meter?

02/07/2010, 07:47 AM	#10
Buckeye Hydro .Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 4,857	[QUOTEhere is a pic of my R/O unit showing 1 week old sediment filter The sediment filter by the softner I have to change out about once a month and the one in the R/O unit I change every 2 months. Thanks guys for all you help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE] Hmm. I don't see a sediment filter in that system. Looks like you have 3 carbon blocks and a DI on the left.

02/07/2010, 07:55 AM	#11
Buckeye Hydro .Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 4,857	You are doing the right thing by supplying the softened water to the RODI system. The iron in your water that discolors your sediment filter is often removed with a softener - doesn't look like your's is removing it weel.. You may have more iron in the eater than your softener can handle. By the way - RO membranes don't tolerate exposure to iron well. You might want to check the membrane performance. Do you ever notice a slimy, almost gel-like substance on the filter cartridges after they have turned orange? Russ

02/07/2010, 08:43 AM	#12
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Do you ever notice a slimy, almost gel-like substance on the filter cartridges after they have turned orange? That is what, Russ, bacteria? __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

02/07/2010, 09:21 AM	#13
reefman30 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Midland, Texas Posts: 137	The right one looks like one of those filters made out of string.

02/07/2010, 09:27 AM	#14
Buckeye Hydro .Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio Posts: 4,857	Yep - a bacterial slime - a.k.a."iron bacteria"