Captive-bred pipefish

[amperidot]

Hi all, I have been trying to find captive bred dragonface pipefish, but so far have not had any luck. Any suggestions on where to look? Thanks!

[rayjay]

Good luck as I don't believe there is such a thing at this time.
The only captive bred pipefish I'm aware of are the ones from Ocean Rider.
http://seahorse.com/shop/Banded-Pipe-Fish.html

[ThRoewer]

Pipefish larva should be fairly easy to raise, but the issue is the low larva count and how to harvest them. I just have that issue with blue stripes which I would love to breed.
But I don't want to risk my current pair by putting them into a naked broodstock tank - it took me way too long to make a pair as quarantine is not an easy thing with these guys.

Commercially it is likely of little interest due to the low clutch sizes and the rather low prices.
Seahorses are bread because the prices for them have gone through the roof - I still remember the days when a wild H. kuda was $10...

[vlangel]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

Pipefish larva should be fairly easy to raise, but the issue is the low larva count and how to harvest them. I just have that issue with blue stripes which I would love to breed.
But I don't want to risk my current pair by putting them into a naked broodstock tank - it took me way too long to make a pair as quarantine is not an easy thing with these guys.

Commercially it is likely of little interest due to the low clutch sizes and the rather low prices.
Seahorses are bread because the prices for them have gone through the roof - I still remember the days when a wild H. kuda was $10...

And even seahorses for many hobbyists are not profitable. I raised 15 out of 22 a year ago and lost money on them. It wasn't easy finding homes that would care responsibly for them and it was stressful trying to do so. Finally I found a lfs recommended to me by a well known seahorse breeder and I went with that even though I lost money. It was a great experience and I am glad I did it but it was too much work to do that again only to end up in the red financially.

[BlueCat1949]

There was a aquaculture place near Perth in Australia that had CB pipes. I was working on breeding pipes at the time so I contacted them and asked for their secret to success. He said the most important thing was pelagic pods for a first food. They have to move around in the water for them to be eaten by the fry. Of course they also have to be tiny for the fry to eat them.

He also told me to harvest the fry at night using a flashlight and turkey baster to attract and capture them. He said if you wait until morning the fry will all be gone.

Anyway I don't remember the name of the place and I doubt pipefish raising could ever be profitable. It is up to us hobbyists to work on pipefish raising if we ever want to have CB fish available.

I raised and sold erectus seahorses for 5 years and spent about $6000 and worked 40 hour weeks during that time. My return was probably under one third of my investment and zero for my time spent. Still, I really enjoyed doing it because I like a challenge.

[ThRoewer]

I would not do it for profit (not primarily anyway) but to maintain my stock. Pipefish and seahorses don't really stand out through their longevity - a few years and you can go and buy replacement. I'd rather breed the next generation myself and also make them available to others.
In Germany blue stripe pipefish are one of the staple fish you can find regularly at better LFS. Here in the US hardly anybody has them and when you find some they are usually in bad shape. In order to get one pair I had to order over 10 specimen through BZA and LA - it's just no fun.
Once established they are the perfect pipefish for a reef tank. My female is the first out at feedings - she even starts begging when she sees me and there isn't food in the water right away. They also have no problems with the high flows of SPS tanks.

[BlueCat1949]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

I would not do it for profit (not primarily anyway) but to maintain my stock. Pipefish and seahorses don't really stand out through their longevity - a few years and you can go and buy replacement. I'd rather breed the next generation myself and also make them available to others.
In Germany blue stripe pipefish are one of the staple fish you can find regularly at better LFS. Here in the US hardly anybody has them and when you find some they are usually in bad shape. In order to get one pair I had to order over 10 specimen through BZA and LA - it's just no fun.
Once established they are the perfect pipefish for a reef tank. My female is the first out at feedings - she even starts begging when she sees me and there isn't food in the water right away. They also have no problems with the high flows of SPS tanks.

My friend owns a LFS and he buys his own fish in person so I just asked him to keep an eye out for pipes that had paired off and were swimming together away from the others.

Then I would go in and buy the pairs from him. I got three species pairs from him and had all three produce fry. Because I didn't have the proper food for the fry I wasn't able to raise them and I eventually cut back on all my breeding programs.

If you are serious about breeding pipes it would be nearly impossible in a reef tank. You either have to isolate the pair or the male when he is about to give birth ( not easy).

Good luck with your pipefish breeding I hope that CB pipes will be available in the hobby someday.

[ThRoewer]

While catching the female should be easy (I even had her in a trap when trying to catch my fridmani male), catching the male is difficult as it is far more reclusive and cautious.

I have another pair of bluestripes on order. I plan to keep those in a 10 gallon tank for breeding purposes.

[pfan151]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

While catching the female should be easy (I even had her in a trap when trying to catch my fridmani male), catching the male is difficult as it is far more reclusive and cautious.

I have another pair of bluestripes on order. I plan to keep those in a 10 gallon tank for breeding purposes.

Where are you able to order sexed pairs of blue stripes? My LFS will order them for me but they can't request certain sexes.

[Keoki18]

Regarding the original post, You are going to have a near impossible task of finding CB Dragon face pipes. My friends and I have been very successful in getting ours to mate and hatch out young, but feeding the larvae is nearly impossible. They have extremely small oral cavities when first born. They are the size of fiber glass slivers. Even brine naups are the size of the entire head.

You may have better luck finding CB banded pipe fish. They were easy enough to raise, and there is probably someone out there selling them.

[DanU]

Seahorses are bread because the prices for them have gone through the roof - I still remember the days when a wild H. kuda was $10...

The reality is that seahorse breeders today make less than they did just a few years ago.

The very first order I shipped to Colorado was with 2 seahorses. FedEx Priority Overnight was $42 and change without a discount. Today the same package with a 39% discount is $87.59. Standard rate would be $129.15. Since we offer flat rate shipping of $39.95, the money has to come from somewhere.

We used to average 2 cancellations a week due to shipping charges. Folks would pay more for the total order from another company than pay a perceived high shipping charge. Since we have gone to flat rate and raised the price of seahorses, we don't get the cancellations anymore.

This doesn't even get into the packaging. A styrofoam box with cardboard runs about $8.00 and change if buy at least some quantity (you have to have the space to store it) then you have heat or ice packs which average a buck a package, special labels, bags, O2, ammonia neutralizers etc. run another couple of bucks.

The large companies that spend a $1,000,000 a month on shipping get discounts that have to be close to 80 to 90%. Small companies just cannot compete as they are paying the rates to cover the large companies.

Other expenses have gone up as well. Food such as frozen mysis, brine cysts, enrichments etc have increase an average of 30% since we started. Our favorite skimmer for our systems has increased 65% in the last 4 years. Depending upon whether a customer pays with which credit card or paypal is another 3 to 5%. Everywhere I look expenses have increased.

If you have to have employees, then double or triple the rate of their hourly pay to cover taxes, unemployment, insurance, dealing with regulations and sick time.

This is without getting into the time aspect of handling retail customers who typically take several emails or phone conversations before the order is done. Sometimes as much as an hour per customer. Without this, you then have to deal with them after the sell as they messed things up by having the wrong setup or at the minimum the wrong expectations.

In the end, most seahorse breeders have gone out of business. A few have managed to hang on, but I can promise you, that they aren't making the money that most believe they are making especially if they are providing quality specimens.

It is easy to become envious of other countries that don't have the regulations we have in the US and can do net pens, where labor in some cases is a $1.00 day, government subsidizes them, and they can sell their seahorses in less than 1/2 the time at less than 2 inches.

Some of us are hard headed and still produce!!!!!

Dan

[pfan151]

Definitely true about the shipping charges. I breed different ball python morphs and have to offer free shipping if I ever want to actually sell anything. I get a little discount but shipping to the west coast still ends up being around $90 not even considering the packaging materials.

[ThRoewer]

Well, you can never turn a profit when you sell to end customers and have to ship one or two at a time around the country and possibly even carry the risk of DOAs.
When I was breeding clownfish I had the wholesaler pick them up at my place or we met at a nearby LFS where they delivered. I also supplied local stores I frequented, but I would have never shipped singles or pairs to end customers.

[DanU]

It is different with seahorses than clownfish. Probably because of the higher price point. We already do roughly 80% wholesale. We would be closed down without the retail sales. The companies that do tours with a gift shop like Hawaii and Australia are smart, much more money on that end of the business.

Dan

[BlueCat1949]

Originally Posted by DanU

The reality is that seahorse breeders today make less than they did just a few years ago.

The very first order I shipped to Colorado was with 2 seahorses. FedEx Priority Overnight was $42 and change without a discount. Today the same package with a 39% discount is $87.59. Standard rate would be $129.15. Since we offer flat rate shipping of $39.95, the money has to come from somewhere.

We used to average 2 cancellations a week due to shipping charges. Folks would pay more for the total order from another company than pay a perceived high shipping charge. Since we have gone to flat rate and raised the price of seahorses, we don't get the cancellations anymore.

This doesn't even get into the packaging. A styrofoam box with cardboard runs about $8.00 and change if buy at least some quantity (you have to have the space to store it) then you have heat or ice packs which average a buck a package, special labels, bags, O2, ammonia neutralizers etc. run another couple of bucks.

The large companies that spend a $1,000,000 a month on shipping get discounts that have to be close to 80 to 90%. Small companies just cannot compete as they are paying the rates to cover the large companies.

Other expenses have gone up as well. Food such as frozen mysis, brine cysts, enrichments etc have increase an average of 30% since we started. Our favorite skimmer for our systems has increased 65% in the last 4 years. Depending upon whether a customer pays with which credit card or paypal is another 3 to 5%. Everywhere I look expenses have increased.

If you have to have employees, then double or triple the rate of their hourly pay to cover taxes, unemployment, insurance, dealing with regulations and sick time.

This is without getting into the time aspect of handling retail customers who typically take several emails or phone conversations before the order is done. Sometimes as much as an hour per customer. Without this, you then have to deal with them after the sell as they messed things up by having the wrong setup or at the minimum the wrong expectations.

In the end, most seahorse breeders have gone out of business. A few have managed to hang on, but I can promise you, that they aren't making the money that most believe they are making especially if they are providing quality specimens.

It is easy to become envious of other countries that don't have the regulations we have in the US and can do net pens, where labor in some cases is a $1.00 day, government subsidizes them, and they can sell their seahorses in less than 1/2 the time at less than 2 inches.

Some of us are hard headed and still produce!!!!!

Dan

I am very glad your are hard headed Dan. The seahorse world needs people like you.

[fabulousfavia]

Originally Posted by amperidot

Hi all, I have been trying to find captive bred dragonface pipefish, but so far have not had any luck. Any suggestions on where to look? Thanks!

I work with dragonface pipefish a lot but have never found captive bred ones which is odd because with right setup they can be easy to breed. They only pipefish that you can really find captive bred is the Janss pipefish . You can have it special ordered for you by your local fish store. If you really want a dragon face pipefish then you can put it in quarantine to train it onto frozen and to deworm it.


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