Looking for plumbing expert advice

ReefWhatYouSow · 11/25/2014, 10:39 AM

Let's not worry about the why right now but the how...

I'm looking to pump water up a wall about 10ft, and then a straight shot (level) for about 20ft, and then the water will drop down about 9ft.

I've done some research and find some varying thoughts behind it but it seems that it would be beneficial if the plumbing that comes from the pump gets bigger in size as it travels up the wall to reduce compression (which a smaller pvc pipe would cause)?

The line that is running the 20ft across is a 1/2" plastic hose.

Please tell me your thoughts on what size pvc should be ran up the wall.

Thanks!

SGT_York · 11/25/2014, 11:20 AM

Always work backwards, what flow do you want to achieve?

With larger pipe you get less "friction loss" (compression has to do with density and pressure), but that loss is directly coorelated to the velocity in the pipe or GPH. So the size of pipe should be determined by how much flow you intend to get after a 40 foot run, and what pump you choose or have.

So what size, model of a pump do you have (or are you still planning to buy one) and what flow do you want out of the end?

Typically head loss would only be one foot 10-9, but that assumes the down column is full of water, what you may get is a vertical up pipe full of water, then mostly full horizontal, and a trickle through the down run. So I would size my pump with 10' of headloss and 40' of friction loss.

I'm assuming this is an ATO???

And I love your username

!

ReefWhatYouSow · 11/25/2014, 11:37 AM

Haha... Thanks! I was getting creative.

And you are correct! ATO it is. From the garage to the "fish room" (build thread to come soon).

Right now I have a Mag9 to pump the water from the garage to the fish room, but I can always upgrade if a Mag9 isn't sufficient.

I'm planning to have the pump connect to an Apex controller so whenever the water level lowers it will kick on and pump the water to the sump.

Thoughts on that?

SGT_York · 11/25/2014, 12:04 PM

Apex sounds great. I'd run it so it doesn't turn off until it runs for a minute or so. So the pump is not constantly turning on and off.

A few issues, with the long difference, ensure your outlet is above the sump water level to stop any siphon back to your garage. Also, with the ATO system it will turn on the pump and run for a bit before water actually starts to flow into the sump then ATO shuts off and the pipes drain. If you have a horizontal run it will drain the entirety of the 20' section into the sump. You can place an Apex or a slight rise just before the final down run which will eliminate any additional water flowing into the sump. (it creats a location for the air bubbles to accumulate so only the water in the down portion of the pipe flow into the sump, the rest goes back to the resevoir.) An inch will suffice with a 1/2" pipe.

Increasing the diameter of the up vertical pipe does help increase flow but it does so with additional volume (obviously) so the pump will need to run longer before the water actually reaches the sump which for an ATO could mean less efficiency than just the increased friction loss. Increasing pipe diameter is a great solution for constant running pumps I wouldn't recommend it for this ATO solution. If you get really concerned about too much water flowing after the pump is shut off they have one way siphon break air valves that will make the Apex comment above work flawlessly, but it increases risk and I would do some test runs before adding it.

I would just run 1/2" pipe the entire way with the apex. 480GPH less friction loss you will get plenty of flow ~250+. Forget the statement above about the down trickle in the last section of pipe, won't happen.

ReefWhatYouSow · 11/25/2014, 08:15 PM

First, thank you for being so in depth and giving a thorough explanation of why to do things a certain way. The line going horizontal is flex so just for additional safety I'll raise the end of it before it drops to the sump. I'll probably not worry about siphon break air valves, but I was thinking about connecting a 20gal tank or something that will catch water if the sump overflows? Maybe something like that?

I'm glad you say 1/2" pope cause that is what I already bought. Way to make it easy on me! Plus, I would assume that not a lot of flow is needed just for ATO.

SGT_York · 11/26/2014, 10:05 AM

You are welcome and enjoy!

ReefWhatYouSow · 12/04/2014, 11:08 PM

Hey SGT_York...

If you have some time, would you mind checking out my latest question on plumbing?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2462320

Also, feel free to check out the build thread as well.

Thanks!

Qburt · 12/05/2014, 12:00 AM

Out of curiosity, wouldn't there be a siphoning issue with flow continuing to run when the pump shut off? I ask because I am looking to pipe my RO/DI in above a sliding glass door then down to my sump. Worried about a continued siphon once it gets started.

11/25/2014, 10:39 AM	#1
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	Looking for plumbing expert advice Let's not worry about the why right now but the how... I'm looking to pump water up a wall about 10ft, and then a straight shot (level) for about 20ft, and then the water will drop down about 9ft. I've done some research and find some varying thoughts behind it but it seems that it would be beneficial if the plumbing that comes from the pump gets bigger in size as it travels up the wall to reduce compression (which a smaller pvc pipe would cause)? The line that is running the 20ft across is a 1/2" plastic hose. Please tell me your thoughts on what size pvc should be ran up the wall. Thanks!

11/25/2014, 11:20 AM	#2
SGT_York Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,746	Always work backwards, what flow do you want to achieve? With larger pipe you get less "friction loss" (compression has to do with density and pressure), but that loss is directly coorelated to the velocity in the pipe or GPH. So the size of pipe should be determined by how much flow you intend to get after a 40 foot run, and what pump you choose or have. So what size, model of a pump do you have (or are you still planning to buy one) and what flow do you want out of the end? Typically head loss would only be one foot 10-9, but that assumes the down column is full of water, what you may get is a vertical up pipe full of water, then mostly full horizontal, and a trickle through the down run. So I would size my pump with 10' of headloss and 40' of friction loss. I'm assuming this is an ATO??? And I love your username ! Last edited by SGT_York; 11/25/2014 at 11:29 AM.

11/25/2014, 11:37 AM	#3
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	Haha... Thanks! I was getting creative. And you are correct! ATO it is. From the garage to the "fish room" (build thread to come soon). Right now I have a Mag9 to pump the water from the garage to the fish room, but I can always upgrade if a Mag9 isn't sufficient. I'm planning to have the pump connect to an Apex controller so whenever the water level lowers it will kick on and pump the water to the sump. Thoughts on that?

11/25/2014, 12:04 PM	#4
SGT_York Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,746	Apex sounds great. I'd run it so it doesn't turn off until it runs for a minute or so. So the pump is not constantly turning on and off. A few issues, with the long difference, ensure your outlet is above the sump water level to stop any siphon back to your garage. Also, with the ATO system it will turn on the pump and run for a bit before water actually starts to flow into the sump then ATO shuts off and the pipes drain. If you have a horizontal run it will drain the entirety of the 20' section into the sump. You can place an Apex or a slight rise just before the final down run which will eliminate any additional water flowing into the sump. (it creats a location for the air bubbles to accumulate so only the water in the down portion of the pipe flow into the sump, the rest goes back to the resevoir.) An inch will suffice with a 1/2" pipe. Increasing the diameter of the up vertical pipe does help increase flow but it does so with additional volume (obviously) so the pump will need to run longer before the water actually reaches the sump which for an ATO could mean less efficiency than just the increased friction loss. Increasing pipe diameter is a great solution for constant running pumps I wouldn't recommend it for this ATO solution. If you get really concerned about too much water flowing after the pump is shut off they have one way siphon break air valves that will make the Apex comment above work flawlessly, but it increases risk and I would do some test runs before adding it. I would just run 1/2" pipe the entire way with the apex. 480GPH less friction loss you will get plenty of flow ~250+. Forget the statement above about the down trickle in the last section of pipe, won't happen.

11/25/2014, 08:15 PM	#5
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	First, thank you for being so in depth and giving a thorough explanation of why to do things a certain way. The line going horizontal is flex so just for additional safety I'll raise the end of it before it drops to the sump. I'll probably not worry about siphon break air valves, but I was thinking about connecting a 20gal tank or something that will catch water if the sump overflows? Maybe something like that? I'm glad you say 1/2" pope cause that is what I already bought. Way to make it easy on me! Plus, I would assume that not a lot of flow is needed just for ATO.

11/26/2014, 10:05 AM	#6
SGT_York Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,746	You are welcome and enjoy!

12/04/2014, 11:08 PM	#7
ReefWhatYouSow Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Posts: 1,193	Hey SGT_York... If you have some time, would you mind checking out my latest question on plumbing? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2462320 Also, feel free to check out the build thread as well. Thanks!

12/05/2014, 12:00 AM	#8
Qburt Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1	Out of curiosity, wouldn't there be a siphoning issue with flow continuing to run when the pump shut off? I ask because I am looking to pipe my RO/DI in above a sliding glass door then down to my sump. Worried about a continued siphon once it gets started.