Angel & Tang with Ick for a month

[jim]

I have a personifer angel and a powder blue tang that have had ick on and off for the last month. The amount on the bodies of the fish change throughout the day, often completely disappearing, only to reappear later.

I also have 2 neon gobies, 3 cleaner shrimp, 2 yellow tangs, 5 blue-green chromis, an orange lyretail anthias, flame angel, naso tang, 9 bangaii cardinals, all with no signs of ick ever.

I have a 430 gallon tank (96x25wide x 40 tall) with a 125 gallon sump, 2 36" skimmers (one with ozone), pump moves 4000gph. It also has @ 750 lbs of dead rock that now provides the biological filtration.

My amonia,nitrites and nitrates are all near 0. ORP is @ 210, Temp is 80-82, PH is fairly stable @ 8.2-8.3.

I have also been feeding Formula 1,2, angel food soaked in garlic juice, but have not been adding any to the water itself.

Since the tank is so large, catching fish is not an option. I also don't believe hyposalinity is an option in a show tank with some inverts and mostly health fish (they may get more stressed). I would rather not use copper but have had good results on previous tanks (and I do know the shrimp would be sacrificed).

Any ideas??

Thanks Jim.

[Staceon]

Hey Jim,

Do you have macros or food on a clip for the fish?

[jim]

I do drop broccoli in the tank about once a week.

I am getting ready to add some macros (i think a halameda is first) but wanted to take it slow as I do not nave much experience with this stuff.

[Green Mariner]

Jim, HOLY *&$# thats a lot of water!! I have used and was very happy with MELEFIX, no adverse affects on my corals or inverts, i highly recommend it. I used the melefix along with 2 cleaner shrimp and a UV sterilizer have not seen any ICK in over a year!! Just make sure you turn off your protien skimmers first!!! DON'T USE COPPER!!!!!!!!!! HTH

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[Staceon]

Broccoli doesn't have much in the way of nutrition. Kind of like you or I eating popcorn; yea it will fill ya up but its just empty.

Try getting some kind of food on a clip or use the macros. You can usually find "seawees selects" at your LFS or Nori at a Asian market. Another choice is Tang Heaven from www.ipsf.com Tangs need a constant supply of food to pick at. Just feeding them once a day some frozen food is usually not enough.

You cant really mess up with macros, but some report hit and miss with trying to feed their fish that particular macro.

Try some constant food supply and see if this boost the immune system for the fish to fight it off naturally.

[Joez]

Dead rock doesn't provide filtration.

If you can't treat them separately or use copper treatments, you can try the "reef safe" medications.

People report some level of success with garlic.

It seems to only be coming and going on those two. Are you sure the water perameters are that good? You mention "near zero" on parameters; you shouldn't be showing any ammonia or nitrites.

How old is the tank?

Any stressors on the fish? The number of fish is low for such a big system, so overcrowding isn't a problem. Are the tangs leaving each other alone? 2 yellow tangs usually mean fighting, and similarly-typed tangs also square off frequently.

[jim]

First, I would like to thank everyone who replied. I really appreciate all the comments, as this has been an ongoing problem.

Staceon, I must disagree with you on the nutritional value of Broccolli. While the Nori may be better (and I am going to try it now), Broccolli is the only thing i have found to effectively heal HLLE in tangs.

Joez, I think you misunderstood my statement about the dead rock. Dead rock will provide biological filtration much like live rock will. It simply provides surface area for the bacteria to grow.

My nitrites and nitrates are 0. My amonia tests at between 0 - .12 PPM (I think that is the right unit. I don't have the kit with me right now.) Even though this is within the "safe zone", I know it could be an issue. I do need to test the water with another kit (which I have)to verify the level.

The tank has been set up for about 6 months.

The tangs do not agressively fight (actual slashing), but do have occasional square-offs where they raise their dorsal fins and then swim away.

[This message has been edited by jim (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Personifier]

Jim,

My personifier angel loves Julian Sprung sea veggies. I have had better luck with copper ( I always use cupermine) than with hyposalinity. Powder Blues are notorious for being ich magnets. In my experience the only way to get rid of ich is to treat the tank or remove all the fish for 4-6 weeks. If treating in the display tank I would go the hyposalinity route. I would never use copper in my main tank.
Now a couple of questions about your personifier. How long have you had it and how big is it? I've had mine for 18 months now. The spots on his face are just starting to really show up. They are a great fish that not too many people have.

Good Luck

Jeff


[This message has been edited by Personifier (edited 09-12-2000).]

[jim]

I have had the personifer for @ 2 1/2 months.

I agree it is a killer fish, especially since they are not common.

He is about 4" long (pretty small), but eats agressively and is quite fat and happy.

One more question.

I know there are different schools of thought on this, but i believe ick is always present in tanks and infests fish when they are stressed.

So, hyposalinity may work to remove the ick for now but it will probably come back. Is it worth taking the chance on stressing the other fish, to save the powder blue?

Also, while the Powder blue is occasionally covered by hundreds of white dots, he often has only 10 or so. He also does not constantly scratch and has not injured himself scratching.

So, am I better off simply trying some different food (Nori and Sprung's stuff), making sure the amonia is 0, and watching to make sure that it doesn't spread, than using coper, hyposalinity or other medication?

By the way, it is pretty cool to watch my fish pull into the shrimp and goby cleaning stations.

JIm

[This message has been edited by jim (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Personifier]

I personally don't believe ich is always present. I could be wrong but I can't see how it can just appear. When I first started in this hobby I made some stupid mistakes and killed quite a few fish. I ended up tearing my tank apart to get rid of the ich. I always quarantine now and I've never had a problem with ich.

Do you notice more spots in the morning and less as the day goes on? If so this is probably due to the fishes color change during the day. The ich is still there just harder to see. I have a powder blue tang in my quarantine tank. I just bought him today. What a beautifull fish.


If it was me I would remove the inverts and do hyposalanity on the fish. I've used it several times and have never lost a fish using it.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Jeff

[O'Man]

Sounds like the infected fish are being stressed by something. Do not know what, but a couple of ideas... Are these fish being chased or harassed by anything else? Any possibility of residual ozone in the water? Low level electrical charge- is the tank grounded? (I do not think grounding is always needed, but it sure sounds like there's a stressor in the woodpile somewhere) As for diet, I would mix it up and varry it widely (nori, any calupera you can find, sprung's stuff... Any chance they will eat spirulina flakes.

Good luck

[jim]

Can I do the hyposalinity with inverts and healthy fish?

I can not remove the inverts. They are too hard to catch.

how long should I reduce the salinity over? I have heard lower it to 1.010-1.0009?

I don't think there could be residual ozone. The fish do eat flake food so i will add that back into their diet.

What about adding garlic juice directly into the water? Anyone done this?

Also, anyone had any luck using Melafix for Ick, other that the one mentioned above? I talked to the company that manufacturers it and they said it is only designed for bacterial infections. That of course does not mean it is not effective for other uses.

Jim

[jim]

Sorry, forgot to answer something.

The tank is grounded.

Also, My thought on ick is that it is always present like bacteria that you and I always have in our systems. They don't make us sick until we get worn down or stressed etc.

With fish it would seem to me to be the same.
This would help explain why only 2 of 25 fish were affected by the ick.

By the way, I have always quarantined my fish for 3-4 weeks, and it definately helps reduce the ick problems.

Jim

[Personifier]

The hyposalanity will kill the inverts.This includes shrimp, snails and hermit crabs. You probably already know that, but I had someone who used hypo and killed their shrimp. They didn't know it was an invert.

I don't think ich is always present. It isn't a bacteria. Itis a parasite which must use a host. If it has no host it will die. Some of your fish may be strong enough to fight it off at the present, but if it keeps multiplying by using your angel and tang as hosts I believe your other fish will eventually be worn down and become infected.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by Personifier (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Terry B]

Jim,
People often hold onto the belief that Ich is always present because they don't understand all the ways it can be imported. Bringing in a new fish is not the only way it can get into your tank.
It is possible to have a low level infection for a period of time without seeing spots. This does not mean it is always present in every tank. If the parasite is present and something happens to throw the balance in your tank off then the Ich can begin to get the upper hand. If the parasite is not present then NO amount of stress can cause an infection.
Terry B

[Joez]

Nice to see your name up again TerryB.

I don't know why people want to believe this ever-present ick myth. I thought the spontaneous generationists were long gone.

Oh well.

[Terry B]

Hi Jim,
Yes there are different schools of thought about Ich always being present, but only one of these opinions is well informed. Cryptocaryon irritans is obligate an parasite, meaning it does not feed on things other than fish. Bacteria are almost always oportunistic and many are almost always present in our systmes including Vibrio. Crypt must have a host fish in order to complete its life-cycle or it will die out. The amount of time required before the parasite will die out can vary. Two weeks will often work, three weeks is better, for weeks is a pretty safe bet, six weeks to be extra cautious and there have even been reports of it taking up to 72 days in extreme cases. The length of the life cycle depends more than anything else upon the water temperature.
I believe that hyposalinity is the superior therapy. In my opinion, it has the highest success rate. Just be sure to find an accurate hydrometer or refractometer to test the salinity daily. Keep an eye on the pH and alkalinity of the water and add a booster as needed.
Best wishes,
Terry B

[This message has been edited by Terry B (edited 09-13-2000).]

[jim]

I guess I will try the hyposalinity and see if the shrimp make it.

Any other ideas?

On the Ick always being present discussion, on my last tank I did not add any fish for 1 1/2 years and did not have any signs of ick in that period. However, after the death of a fish, the fish hierarchy changed and I had a small out break on certain abused fish.

This is one of the main reasons for my belief. I just don't know how else the ick would return otherwise.

Anyway, thanks for the advice and discussion.

Jim

[DJREEF]

You could try feeding the Tetra anti-parisite flake food, if your guys will take flake, in addition to your hypo treatments. I've had pretty good luck with this product, just be sure the can is fresh. As far as the ich theory goes I truly believe I completely erraticated the bug from my FO system with copper about 9 months ago. The outbreak was fairly severe, and compounded by the presence of velvet, so copper really was my only option. I ran the system at full strength for 10 weeks. Extreme, I know, but everything worked out, with no mortality. So needless to say I haven't seen as much as a speck in this time.

DJ

[youbetyourwrasse]

I have experienced this with my (now ex-) powder blue tang.

I made the mistake of falling for one of those tiny guys, knowing darn well that my 55 gallon would be too small. I figured he'd be okay until I got my 135 in one year or so. Little bugger grew from 3" to 5" in 3 months, and began getting in fights with the resident lunare wrasse. Then he got Crypto. I added a UV sterilizer, stepped up my husbandry, and watched the spots come and go for 6 weeks. I then tried garlic with his 2X daily Nori fix. Spots disappeared in a few days, it was like magic.

His colors returned and on went life. 3 months and another inch later the fighting escalated, with him now being King 'o the tank. But I guess being a leader has it's own stresses, because the Crypto returned, with spots also showing on my Picasso and Valentini puffer. I never worried about Trig and Puff; but I worried about that tang. I put off removing him; I was afraid of the stress it would cause and besides, he had licked this before.

Plans were in the works to set up a 135, when I put him in a hospital tank with Puff for copper treatment. The spots were coming but not going. He died in a day. Puff stayed in the HT for a week, and has been fine ever since.

I believe the fish must be free to develope his own resistance, and conditions must be optimal for most members of this species to do so. I agree with Staceon that nibbling all day is part of that optimal environment. So is lots of swimming room, a well-matured system, lots of LR, a varied diet, and suitable tankmates. I think sometimes we look too closely at individual "numbers" that we miss the "big picture".

JMHO

YBYW.

[john f]

TerryB,
I guess you and I are to do battle again.
The fact that many reefers have had Ich outbreaks with ZERO fish or invertebrate additions in many months (I have several times) would seem to indicate that ich is difficult (I believe impossible) to remove completely from a reef tank. My theory is that even healthy fish that show no outward signs of the parasite can harbor 1 or 2 trophonts which sort of reproduce slowly to create a subclinical infection. This is sort of like staph on your skin. Then when the fish becomes stressed the ich starts to gain the upper hand and a clinical infection is observed.
So quarantine may not help (it NEVER has for me) because the new fish may come in parasite free, but the older fish have enough trophonts on them to start an infection in the new fish if it is stressed.
So the buggers can be obligate parasites and still maintain a subclinical infestation for many months/years after any signs of disease are noted.
I have been on several dive trips where I could find fish with ich on them, and some without. Its always there IMHO, just waiting to attack!!!!

John

[jim]

Thanks John. Thats what i always thought.

What do you do to treat fish when you have these outbreaks?

Jim

[BrianD]

quote:

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Originally posted by john f:
TerryB,
I guess you and I are to do battle again.

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This board doesn't have "battles", it has discussions. That is what separates it from others, IMO. I don't know why it is that when Terry posts an opinion on any board people come out of the woodwork to argue with him. It seems that instead of offering anecdotal personal observations, some type of scientific rebuttal would be more useful.

You have two opinions contrary to accepted dogma:

1) ich is also present
2) quarantine isn't necessary/helpful

I would be interested to see some scientific/research papers that support these positions, as opposed to personal "theories".

Brian

[Larry M]

I'm not sure I see the importance of knowing whether ich is always present or not. Would you choose a different disease treatment based on that bit of knowledge? You can't treat in a reef tank anyway (at least not proven, IMO) so what's the difference? Does this mean you wouldn't quarantine? That is not the only reason for quaranting anyway.

So why does it matter?

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Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef

[BrianD]

Sorry if my previous post sounds grouchy.

It's been one of those weeks (or should I say years?)

Brian