High Phosphate Levels

FTReef · 11/03/2021, 11:36 AM

Phosphates in my tank have always puzzled me. In my research there is a lot of opinions and controversy but I figured I’d throw this out here. Always ran about .15 to .2

After about a year months I bought a reactor to start trying GFO. Brought levels down to what in the hobby people seem to chase. Much to my surprise my corals were very unhappy with their new reality. I’m mostly torches, hammers and softies. They never really got used to their new levels which were between .05 and 1. Extension and color suffered.

After 2-3 months I decided to let the tank go. As of today I measured .33 (has com up slowly in the last month or so)…. Well my corals couldn’t be happier. Extension is back. Color is better. They seem to be thriving.

I know not to chase numbers but how high is too high?

Vinny Kreyling · 11/03/2021, 12:53 PM

Find Richard Ross's Macna talk on phosphates & give it a watch.

FTReef · 11/03/2021, 09:54 PM

That was an excellent lecture. Thank you for pointing it out!

I’m not going to sweat my PO4 numbers and not overly question where my tank and my corals take things as long as it seems to be working.

Timfish · 11/04/2021, 07:12 AM

Not surprised and kudos for listening to your corals and not chasing nunmbers! What is not conveyed well in this hobby is corals are using forms of nitrogen and phosphorus we can't test for and the ratios of the various types are important, some are good some are bad. Unfortunately we tend to focus only on nitrates and phosphates that we can test for and invariable opinions form about what's "ideal" without considering the forms and ratios we cannot test for. Besides Richard Ross' video here's some more research you might find informative:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...D254623FD3C7C#
An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1661

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...015.00103/full

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...601?via%3Dihub

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22098111004588

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts
https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wi...Vm0sG8_0vth6lq

https://therichross.com/skeptical-re...and-phosphate/

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/gcb.13695

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...66445X19307192

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton
https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej2017142

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont
https://youtu.be/DWItFGRQJL4

BActeria and Sponges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oLDclO7UcM

11/03/2021, 11:36 AM	#1
FTReef Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Gulf Coast of Florida Posts: 32	High Phosphate Levels Phosphates in my tank have always puzzled me. In my research there is a lot of opinions and controversy but I figured I’d throw this out here. Always ran about .15 to .2 After about a year months I bought a reactor to start trying GFO. Brought levels down to what in the hobby people seem to chase. Much to my surprise my corals were very unhappy with their new reality. I’m mostly torches, hammers and softies. They never really got used to their new levels which were between .05 and 1. Extension and color suffered. After 2-3 months I decided to let the tank go. As of today I measured .33 (has com up slowly in the last month or so)…. Well my corals couldn’t be happier. Extension is back. Color is better. They seem to be thriving. I know not to chase numbers but how high is too high?

11/03/2021, 12:53 PM	#2
Vinny Kreyling Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 7,206	Find Richard Ross's Macna talk on phosphates & give it a watch. __________________ 250 gallon mixed reef, 2 Reefbreeder's Photon V 2, Deepwater BLDC 12, DAS EX-3 Skimmer, MTC mini cal, 2-3/4" Sea Swirls, Aquacontroller & 6 Tunze pumps.

11/04/2021, 07:12 AM	#4
Timfish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,985	Not surprised and kudos for listening to your corals and not chasing nunmbers! What is not conveyed well in this hobby is corals are using forms of nitrogen and phosphorus we can't test for and the ratios of the various types are important, some are good some are bad. Unfortunately we tend to focus only on nitrates and phosphates that we can test for and invariable opinions form about what's "ideal" without considering the forms and ratios we cannot test for. Besides Richard Ross' video here's some more research you might find informative: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...D254623FD3C7C# An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals Phosphate Deficiency: Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching: https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate1661 Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...015.00103/full Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...601?via%3Dihub Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...22098111004588 High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wi...Vm0sG8_0vth6lq https://therichross.com/skeptical-re...and-phosphate/ Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191 Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381 Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/gcb.13695 Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution (here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing) https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...66445X19307192 Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej2017142 Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont https://youtu.be/DWItFGRQJL4 BActeria and Sponges https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oLDclO7UcM __________________ "Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek

11/03/2021, 09:54 PM	#3
FTReef Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Gulf Coast of Florida Posts: 32	That was an excellent lecture. Thank you for pointing it out! I’m not going to sweat my PO4 numbers and not overly question where my tank and my corals take things as long as it seems to be working.