?? On Sump Plumbing

joel_u · 02/08/2010, 02:47 PM

Hi Folks,

I'm splitting this out from my "newbie" thread for some specific questions. Please take a look and help if you can! Thanks!

I'm setting up a 35g (36"x15"x16") tank and will be using a 30"x12" Euro-Fil sump. My tank is not drilled, so I'm ordering a nano prefilter box from lifereef.com rated for 400 gph. Here are the questions:

1. What return pump should I get? Right now I'm thinking about an eheim 1260...

2. Unless I get a pump with <3" width I'll have to remove some of the sump baffles. Would it make sense to buy a big jug and install in the sump with the pump in the jug? Idea is that the jug sides will help trap bubbles and also prevent the entire sump from getting pumped into the DT if the overflow fails.

3. What should I do for the sump return? Should I just rig up some vinyl tubing to dump the water back into the tank? Should I get some kind of pre-made return rig?

Thanks for any comments!

IridescentLily · 02/08/2010, 05:56 PM

#3 Usually what is used is rigid PVC, (in the diameter your equipment needs), or spa flex hose.

joel_u · 02/08/2010, 07:29 PM

Thanks for the response to #3, Lily.

Regarding #1, I did a lot more reading of reviews, read some articles about the benefits of having low flow through the sump (supplemented by DT power heads), and then saw some deals available at Foster's & Smith. So in the end I decided to place an order for an eheim 1250. I think really what I was looking for was something like a "1255" in between the 1250 and 1260, but that doesn't exist, so I decided to go lower.

Anyone have an opinion on Q2? (not sure if I worded it well or if it even makes sense as a concern....)

Thanks!

IridescentLily · 02/09/2010, 01:40 AM

You're most welcome, and I'll bump this up so someone can help you with the first two questions...

stevek480 · 02/09/2010, 07:59 AM

#1. You can always go higher and then use a gate valve on the return line to dial down the flow, that's what I did. It doesn't hurt the pump. If you go higher you can also use it to run reactors or something else in the future.

#2. I've never heard of anyone doing that so I really can't help you there.

dakineacct · 02/09/2010, 08:16 AM

#2 - If you remove the baffles to make room for your return pump, why not install new baffles at a location(s) that would accomadate your pump?

IslandCrow · 02/09/2010, 09:12 AM

I used an Eheim 1250 on my 46g, and it worked just fine. I think you'll definitely like the Eheim in general. It's a very quiet and efficient pump. Is it going to fit into the return section of your sump, or are the baffles still going to be in the way?

For Question #3, what I did for a similar setup was use flexible tubing from the overflow which fed into rigid PVC that split the overflow into two channels to slow the water down and reduce noise. There are a ton of noise reduction techniques out there, but just running a single line straight into the sump works too. I have a thread linked somewhere on the subject. It may be more complicated than you want to bother with, but supposedly it makes for a very quiet sump.

Chris27 · 02/09/2010, 09:29 AM

Eheim's are great pumps, but if you need to get a very small pump, the Rio HF's are very small and will problably fit into your sump without modification.

For you return, a product like this will make things easier:

http://www.marinedepot.com/U_Tube_wi...FT0011-vi.html

All you would need to do is drill a very small hole for a siphon break and connect some vinyl tubing between your pump and return tube.

It's all pretty strait forward and you should be able to figure it out in no-time at all.

Good Luck

joel_u · 02/09/2010, 10:43 AM

Thanks for the comments (and for the comment-enabling bump

)

Regarding the baffles, the sump I have has 2 baffles that are not attached to the main body. The sump has 2 sets of grooves that allow you to slide the baffles into place. I guess the idea is so that you can configure them as you want, but the downside is that they're not water tight. So even if you one in place against the bottom, water can still seep around and under.

I'm considering siliconing the baffles in place, which would give me more control. The panels are short of spanning the width by about 1/8", so I would have to really gob on the silicone. Is that ok to do, or would it be too weak?

I could also just ditch the baffle at the 3" mark and leave the one at 5". Although there I'm not sure if 1 baffle would really do any bubble trapping...

Thanks for any more suggestions!

Chris27 · 02/09/2010, 11:12 AM

An over under baffle configuration works best, it helps break the bubble as it passes through.

IslandCrow · 02/09/2010, 12:58 PM

You should be able to use silocone to close up the gap. Worst case scenario, you just cut some acrylic or glass to fit a bit more flush. The baffle closest to the return chamber is really the only one you need watertight.

Also, here's the link for the quiet sump setup if that's something you're worried about. If the reading is a bit daunting, I wouldn't worry about it. I bookmarked it awhile ago, but I don't think I ever got around to reading it in any depth, much less implementing it. The thread's been going pretty strong for awhile, though, so there may be some useful ideas in there for you: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344892

joel_u · 02/09/2010, 11:19 PM

Hey, what about this idea: drop a 2.5g aquarium into the sump to house the return pump? The idea would be that the aquarium sides would sort of act as baffles. It would also give me an area separated from the pump for LR / cheato / whatever.

Here are some schematics:

top: top.JPG

side: side.JPG

stevek480 · 02/10/2010, 08:55 AM

How far apart are the baffles. They really only need to be about an inch apart. Can you just reposition the baffles?

joel_u · 02/10/2010, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevek480

How far apart are the baffles. They really only need to be about an inch apart. Can you just reposition the baffles?

The vertical grooves for inserting the baffles are 2" apart. One baffle is 8" high and has little acrylic blocks that sit on the grooves and keep it 2" off the bottom (although you can instead insert the baffle upside down and it will rest on the bottom).

I can reposition the baffles, but would have to attach them and they don't quite span the width -- I would say about 1/4" short.

So, basically I'm trying to decide between [A] mini DIY project with the baffles, or [B] use some kind of container, like a 2.5g tank for a similar effect.

Thanks for any help!

joel_u · 02/16/2010, 04:36 PM

I've been making progress on my sump planning (sorry, no pics though). Here's a walk through:

1. Water exits tank through LifeReef nano pre-filter box
-- Got yesterday, hope to try out today
2. Will descend via 3/4" flexible tubing
-- Will see how noisy this is, once running
3. Water enters sump intake area where I'll have LR
-- Plan to remove the filter sock and sponge that came with the sump, since it seems those could be more hassle than they're worth
4. Will use one of the baffle pieces to create a table in the return area ~4" off the ground
-- baffles are really short (width) so I don't think I can glue them in place
-- I can create the table using the built-in grooves for some extra height
5. Will have a "Kritter Keeper" (med) on the table with my eHeim 1250 pump inside for returning water
-- Sump water height should be about 14", so volume ~20g
6. Water will be returned through 1/2" flex tubing through a DIY PVC "U"
-- Have the pieces, but need to build

My only concerns at this point are:
C1: Return flow may be on the low side
C2: The "table" I create in the sump might create some dead zones

Plan to get everything set up and run a FW test -- will probably switch back over to my main newbie thread for the build (and pics!)

02/09/2010, 01:40 AM	#4
IridescentLily Editor-Reefkeeping mag Join Date: May 2008 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 3,858 Blog Entries: 5	You're most welcome, and I'll bump this up so someone can help you with the first two questions... __________________ ~April Editor-Reefkeeping Magazine

02/09/2010, 09:12 AM	#7
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	I used an Eheim 1250 on my 46g, and it worked just fine. I think you'll definitely like the Eheim in general. It's a very quiet and efficient pump. Is it going to fit into the return section of your sump, or are the baffles still going to be in the way? For Question #3, what I did for a similar setup was use flexible tubing from the overflow which fed into rigid PVC that split the overflow into two channels to slow the water down and reduce noise. There are a ton of noise reduction techniques out there, but just running a single line straight into the sump works too. I have a thread linked somewhere on the subject. It may be more complicated than you want to bother with, but supposedly it makes for a very quiet sump. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

02/09/2010, 12:58 PM	#11
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	You should be able to use silocone to close up the gap. Worst case scenario, you just cut some acrylic or glass to fit a bit more flush. The baffle closest to the return chamber is really the only one you need watertight. Also, here's the link for the quiet sump setup if that's something you're worried about. If the reading is a bit daunting, I wouldn't worry about it. I bookmarked it awhile ago, but I don't think I ever got around to reading it in any depth, much less implementing it. The thread's been going pretty strong for awhile, though, so there may be some useful ideas in there for you: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344892 __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

02/08/2010, 02:47 PM	#1
joel_u Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA Posts: 28	?? On Sump Plumbing Hi Folks, I'm splitting this out from my "newbie" thread for some specific questions. Please take a look and help if you can! Thanks! I'm setting up a 35g (36"x15"x16") tank and will be using a 30"x12" Euro-Fil sump. My tank is not drilled, so I'm ordering a nano prefilter box from lifereef.com rated for 400 gph. Here are the questions: 1. What return pump should I get? Right now I'm thinking about an eheim 1260... 2. Unless I get a pump with <3" width I'll have to remove some of the sump baffles. Would it make sense to buy a big jug and install in the sump with the pump in the jug? Idea is that the jug sides will help trap bubbles and also prevent the entire sump from getting pumped into the DT if the overflow fails. 3. What should I do for the sump return? Should I just rig up some vinyl tubing to dump the water back into the tank? Should I get some kind of pre-made return rig? Thanks for any comments!

02/08/2010, 05:56 PM	#2
IridescentLily Editor-Reefkeeping mag Join Date: May 2008 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 3,858 Blog Entries: 5	#3 Usually what is used is rigid PVC, (in the diameter your equipment needs), or spa flex hose. __________________ ~April Editor-Reefkeeping Magazine

02/08/2010, 07:29 PM	#3
joel_u Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA Posts: 28	Thanks for the response to #3, Lily. Regarding #1, I did a lot more reading of reviews, read some articles about the benefits of having low flow through the sump (supplemented by DT power heads), and then saw some deals available at Foster's & Smith. So in the end I decided to place an order for an eheim 1250. I think really what I was looking for was something like a "1255" in between the 1250 and 1260, but that doesn't exist, so I decided to go lower. Anyone have an opinion on Q2? (not sure if I worded it well or if it even makes sense as a concern....) Thanks!

02/09/2010, 07:59 AM	#5
stevek480 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Flemington, NJ Posts: 605	#1. You can always go higher and then use a gate valve on the return line to dial down the flow, that's what I did. It doesn't hurt the pump. If you go higher you can also use it to run reactors or something else in the future. #2. I've never heard of anyone doing that so I really can't help you there.

02/09/2010, 08:16 AM	#6
dakineacct Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 217	#2 - If you remove the baffles to make room for your return pump, why not install new baffles at a location(s) that would accomadate your pump?

02/09/2010, 09:29 AM	#8
Chris27 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 4,452	Eheim's are great pumps, but if you need to get a very small pump, the Rio HF's are very small and will problably fit into your sump without modification. For you return, a product like this will make things easier: http://www.marinedepot.com/U_Tube_wi...FT0011-vi.html All you would need to do is drill a very small hole for a siphon break and connect some vinyl tubing between your pump and return tube. It's all pretty strait forward and you should be able to figure it out in no-time at all. Good Luck

02/09/2010, 10:43 AM	#9
joel_u Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA Posts: 28	Thanks for the comments (and for the comment-enabling bump ) Regarding the baffles, the sump I have has 2 baffles that are not attached to the main body. The sump has 2 sets of grooves that allow you to slide the baffles into place. I guess the idea is so that you can configure them as you want, but the downside is that they're not water tight. So even if you one in place against the bottom, water can still seep around and under. I'm considering siliconing the baffles in place, which would give me more control. The panels are short of spanning the width by about 1/8", so I would have to really gob on the silicone. Is that ok to do, or would it be too weak? I could also just ditch the baffle at the 3" mark and leave the one at 5". Although there I'm not sure if 1 baffle would really do any bubble trapping... Thanks for any more suggestions!

02/09/2010, 11:12 AM	#10
Chris27 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 4,452	An over under baffle configuration works best, it helps break the bubble as it passes through.

02/09/2010, 11:19 PM	#12
joel_u Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA Posts: 28	Hey, what about this idea: drop a 2.5g aquarium into the sump to house the return pump? The idea would be that the aquarium sides would sort of act as baffles. It would also give me an area separated from the pump for LR / cheato / whatever. Here are some schematics: top: top.JPG side: side.JPG

02/10/2010, 08:55 AM	#13
stevek480 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Flemington, NJ Posts: 605	How far apart are the baffles. They really only need to be about an inch apart. Can you just reposition the baffles?

02/16/2010, 04:36 PM	#15
joel_u Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA Posts: 28	I've been making progress on my sump planning (sorry, no pics though). Here's a walk through: 1. Water exits tank through LifeReef nano pre-filter box -- Got yesterday, hope to try out today 2. Will descend via 3/4" flexible tubing -- Will see how noisy this is, once running 3. Water enters sump intake area where I'll have LR -- Plan to remove the filter sock and sponge that came with the sump, since it seems those could be more hassle than they're worth 4. Will use one of the baffle pieces to create a table in the return area ~4" off the ground -- baffles are really short (width) so I don't think I can glue them in place -- I can create the table using the built-in grooves for some extra height 5. Will have a "Kritter Keeper" (med) on the table with my eHeim 1250 pump inside for returning water -- Sump water height should be about 14", so volume ~20g 6. Water will be returned through 1/2" flex tubing through a DIY PVC "U" -- Have the pieces, but need to build My only concerns at this point are: C1: Return flow may be on the low side C2: The "table" I create in the sump might create some dead zones Plan to get everything set up and run a FW test -- will probably switch back over to my main newbie thread for the build (and pics!)