MH - do you use SE or DE HQI and WHY??? - Page 2

Horace · 08/20/2007, 12:43 PM

Again, we have the typical HQI vs SE discussion, and as usual everyone jumps to the conclusion that HQI have higher output. Well sorry to spoil the fun, but that just is not even close to universally true. Go to Sanjay's site and compare SE to HQI and you will find that after you sheild the bulbs, 90% of the time the SE has a significant amount more PAR. As to the argument about corroded SE reflectors, that MAY be the case, but there is no way you say can that HQI = more PAR (after shielded)...its simply not true.

For example:

250w XM 10k on M58 = 137 PAR

250w XDE 10k on HQI (shielded) = 109

Thats a pretty darn significant increase in PAR by using the SE. This is true with nearly all bulbs that you try to compare...go ahead and see for yourself.

Oh btw, you put the XM10k SE on an HQI and now your looking at 182 PAR.....A HELL of a lot more PAR than the DE version..

USC-fan · 08/20/2007, 12:51 PM

Overall, HQI bulbs on the correct ballast will have better par than SE bulbs of the same power.

Didn't sanjay say that DE is the way to go.....

RichConley · 08/20/2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kb-smoker
Overall, HQI bulbs on the correct ballast will have better par than SE bulbs of the same power.

I suggest you check sanjay's site, because thats mostly not true.

Quote:

Didn't sanjay say that DE is the way to go.....

He said that based on the assumption that most people run worse SE reflectors than DE reflectors. IE, spiders are worse than the worst DE reflectors.

Horace · 08/20/2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
I suggest you check sanjay's site, because thats mostly not true.

Yep... see my comments above.

DarG · 08/20/2007, 01:09 PM

I did this not too long ago.
I was expecting SE, because of the shield used on DE, to have a good edge. But actually, it's not the case.

I was surprised to find that the DE manufacturers have done a good job in recent years. You would have to go through every example of every bulb type that Sanjay tested in which the manufacturer has both versions in the same wattages and color tenmperatures to do an actual count (and that doesnt consider the ones he didnt test) but just taking a random look ... it seems that it is close enough to call it pretty even. I think that SE probably still has the slight edge but you can easily find examples to support either the SE or DE argument.

RichConley · 08/20/2007, 01:12 PM

Yeah, the difference is DarG, in most of the examples, you're running a DE on HQI (330w) or the SE on E/Mag (260w)

Horace · 08/20/2007, 01:22 PM

DarG, please, do share with us some examples, because having owned DE, I was quite interested in this topic, and I was always dissapointed with the output of the DE when compared to the SE version.

Here is one more...

XM 20k SE on M58 = 73
XM 20k DE on HQI = 42

Thats only the first two that I have looked at....So please find us some different results

DarG · 08/20/2007, 01:25 PM

No Rich, I'm comparing with the respective ballasts that get the most par from the respective bulbs. The exception being I'm not putting SE's on HQI ballasts.

Horace · 08/20/2007, 01:27 PM

Ushio 10k SE on m58 = 118
Ushio 10k DE on HQI = 84

Again, not even close.....

Horace · 08/20/2007, 01:30 PM

With Giesman, it shows the bulbs are nearly even with 82 vs 88. Either way, I think its pretty obvious you cant just say that HQI is higher output than SE, even though it should be seeing its using a hell of a lot more watts. Like has always been said, the reflector is by far the most important thing. If you use a lumenarc reflector for either SE or DE, your light is going to be plenty either way....

USC-fan · 08/20/2007, 01:41 PM

lets see what the man says about this....

Conclusion

The 150W double ended lamps are very attractive choice for lighting, and in fact we feel they are a better choice when compared to the 175W single ended lamps â€“ based on the fact they produce as much light as the 175W lamps and consume less electricity. Also, the smaller size of the lamp makes it more effective in a reflective fixture. The electronic ballasts for the 150W lamps are also attractive because of the size, weight and heat issues, but they seem to slightly under drive the lamps as compared to the magnetic ballast. Also, it is quite clear that there is very little difference in the light output for the 3 electronic ballasts, the IceCap, Reliable and Aromat ballast. The Hellolightâ€™s ballast is not likely a true 150W ballast, since it is rated for 175W also. These results are for new lamps and based on a sample size of one. Eventually we would like to develop an understanding of how these double ended bulbs age with different ballast combinations.

RichConley · 08/20/2007, 02:06 PM

Do we need to get into this? I think I went through about 20 150w/175w bulbs in the "Which is better, 150DE/175SE", and almost every single SE bulb had higher par than its DE counterpart.

DarG · 08/20/2007, 02:29 PM

Aquaconnect
14K
DE - HQI - 82
SE - E - 96

AB
10K
DE - HQI - 104
SE - M58 - 101

Coralvue
15K
DE - HQI - 54
SE - E - 47

20K
DE - HQI - 54
SE - E - 60

EVC
10K
DE - HQI - 147
SE - E - 110

14K
DE - HQI - 66
SE- E - 71

20K
DE - HQI - 64
SE - E - 57

Happy Reefing
10K
DE - HQI - 101
SE - M58 - 128

14K
DE - E - 95
SE - E - 67

20K
DE - HQI - 84
SE - E - 79

PFO
11K Krystal Star
DE - HQI - 82
SE - M58 - 131

Sun Aquatics
10K
DE - HQI - 116
SE - M58 - 111

14K
DE - HQI - 61
SE - E - 47

20K
DE - HQI - 64
SE - E - 67

Ushio
10K
DE - HQI - 84
SE - M58 - 118

XM
10K
DE - HQI - 109
SE - E - 121

15K
DE - E - 54
SE - E - 66

20K
DE - HQI - 42
SE - E - 44

That's all the 250 watt where a manufacturer had both a DE and SE version of the same Color Temperature and apparent line.

E = Electronic ballast ... I used the number for the e-ballast that got the highest PPFD from the bulb.

The numbers for the DE's were all checked for the Shielded bulb. For the SE's I used the Unshielded numbers.

Like I said, I was surprised to find that it was pretty even with SE still having a slight edge. Its' 10 to 8 SE to DE.

Some of them were so close, within 4 or 5 PPFD, that it's probably insignifigant.

I use DE but I chose it initially because of the shield and my particular interest in one bulb and one particular fixture. I did not want to have a bulb exposed to the water and it didnt make much sense to shield and already shielded SE bulb.

I didnt care which way this actually went. I never try to sway anyone into going DE or SE. I have no vested interest in seeing DE bulbs rule the world.

I was just sharing an observation. Of course, it was challenged

So here it is. I guess it backs up my initial observation pretty well.

Horace · 08/20/2007, 02:37 PM

DarG, All I am saying is that most of the time SE is the winner (you proved it 8 out of 10), which directly contradicts what some have been saying in this thread.

I am not trying to push anyone either way either. I have used DE with much success, however, I will say I had a hell of a time finding a bulb that was my color taste, and had good output. I essentially went with DE for a single bulb...The Phoenix 14k. If not for that bulb, I would have had ZERO interest in DE bulbs honestly. Recently I switched from the Phoenix to a 400w XM 20k because I wanted more PAR than the Phoenix, and keep the blue or slightly blue color.

RichConley · 08/20/2007, 02:49 PM

Okay, so theyre "relatively close"

and yet the SE uses 30% less electricity.

DarG · 08/20/2007, 02:57 PM

We werent talking about par per watt

USC-fan · 08/20/2007, 03:11 PM

does anyone have the article where sanjay is talking about 250watt de vs 400watt SE?

RichConley · 08/20/2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarG
We werent talking about par per watt

Well, considering that theres about the same wattage difference between 250 SEs and 250 HQIs, as there is between 250HQIs and 400 SEs, you might as well use the 400s, as they smoke both.

DarG · 08/20/2007, 04:11 PM

That's a generalization.

I could be using a 250 watt DE on HQI ballast that runs at 280 watts. It depends on the bulb. They arent all up there at 350 watts.

DarG · 08/20/2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Horace
DarG, All I am saying is that most of the time SE is the winner (you proved it 8 out of 10), which directly contradicts what some have been saying in this thread.

I never said any different. But in 3 of those 18 examples, the DE bulb only lagged the SE by 5 or less PPFD. In a few more, it wasnt much more than that. To proclaim SE as the "winner" is pretty silly in terms of output alone.

Some would make the argument that the DE has a smaller footprint and reflectors are more effective because of it. Because there is less bulb to block reflection back to the tank. I believe that Sanjay has made that argument.

I would say, who the hell cares. You cant make the argument that I could keep a nicer reef if I went with SE over DE or vice versa so it's all a bunch of extraneous crap when it comes down to it.

Horace · 08/20/2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarG
I never said any different. But in 3 of those 18 examples, the DE bulb only lagged the SE by 5 or less PPFD. In a few more, it wasnt much more than that. To proclaim SE as the "winner" is pretty silly in terms of output alone.

Some would make the argument that the DE has a smaller footprint and reflectors are more effective because of it. Because there is less bulb to block reflection back to the tank. I believe that Sanjay has made that argument.

I would say, who the hell cares. You cant make the argument that I could keep a nicer reef if I went with SE over DE or vice versa so it's all a bunch of extraneous crap when it comes down to it.

Yes, this is true, but it just makes me want to slap somone every time I hear the crap that DE's, w/ or w/out an HQI ballast is better. What is even more laughable is it was being spread not that long ago that 250w DE HQI is just as powerful is 400w SE which is just not even close to reality.

HaroldT · 08/20/2007, 05:51 PM

I have been using the SE XM 10K and have been happy with it. Bright. Good coral growth.

hahnmeister · 08/20/2007, 06:53 PM

You have both overlooked one big thing though in comparing SE to DE... life.

DE's may start out lower, but they will keep that output for a longer time. There are some who report only 10% loss of output after a year with DE. A pheonix on Icecaps will stay at 75% output after a year, and about 85% on HQI (although not as blue)Most every SE bulb after a year is overdue for a change. Some with as little as 40% of their starting output. I have yet to see someone running a SE bulb for 3 years like you can with some HQI's.

The figures that Sanjay gives are after a hundred or so hours of runtime. If you were to compare the figures over the course of a year, many of those DE bulbs that lose out to their SE counterparts in the start will continue to run just fine while the SE's fade.

luv951 · 08/21/2007, 03:12 PM

Hahn,

Thanks for the reading- do you have more?....I keep trying to search, but can't stay up late enough to find it working ; )

If I may be so bold, what setup do you have for lighting?

At this point, it seems to me that the benefits of a properly matched DE setup outweigh the benefits offered by SE bulbs....does that sound about correct?

hahnmeister · 08/21/2007, 03:17 PM

To me, yes, the benefits of a properly matched DE setup outweight those of a SE setup. Want to see my lighting... click on the red house. My 48x30x21"h tank is lit by a single 250wattDE pendant on a light rail with a Ushio 14,000K bulb. I also have 4x54wattT5s for an ambient blue look, but Im thinking about disconnecting two of the T5s and just using the blue+ bulbs.... the actinics dont do much (the ushio has loads of actinic), and for some corals, it might be too much it seems.

08/20/2007, 12:43 PM	#26
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	Again, we have the typical HQI vs SE discussion, and as usual everyone jumps to the conclusion that HQI have higher output. Well sorry to spoil the fun, but that just is not even close to universally true. Go to Sanjay's site and compare SE to HQI and you will find that after you sheild the bulbs, 90% of the time the SE has a significant amount more PAR. As to the argument about corroded SE reflectors, that MAY be the case, but there is no way you say can that HQI = more PAR (after shielded)...its simply not true. For example: 250w XM 10k on M58 = 137 PAR 250w XDE 10k on HQI (shielded) = 109 Thats a pretty darn significant increase in PAR by using the SE. This is true with nearly all bulbs that you try to compare...go ahead and see for yourself. Oh btw, you put the XM10k SE on an HQI and now your looking at 182 PAR.....A HELL of a lot more PAR than the DE version.. __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress Last edited by Horace; 08/20/2007 at 12:50 PM.

08/20/2007, 01:12 PM	#31
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	Yeah, the difference is DarG, in most of the examples, you're running a DE on HQI (330w) or the SE on E/Mag (260w) __________________ NO TANKS!!!

08/20/2007, 01:22 PM	#32
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	DarG, please, do share with us some examples, because having owned DE, I was quite interested in this topic, and I was always dissapointed with the output of the DE when compared to the SE version. Here is one more... XM 20k SE on M58 = 73 XM 20k DE on HQI = 42 Thats only the first two that I have looked at....So please find us some different results __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress

08/20/2007, 01:27 PM	#34
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	Ushio 10k SE on m58 = 118 Ushio 10k DE on HQI = 84 Again, not even close..... __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress

08/20/2007, 01:30 PM	#35
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	With Giesman, it shows the bulbs are nearly even with 82 vs 88. Either way, I think its pretty obvious you cant just say that HQI is higher output than SE, even though it should be seeing its using a hell of a lot more watts. Like has always been said, the reflector is by far the most important thing. If you use a lumenarc reflector for either SE or DE, your light is going to be plenty either way.... __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress

08/20/2007, 12:51 PM	#27
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	Overall, HQI bulbs on the correct ballast will have better par than SE bulbs of the same power. Didn't sanjay say that DE is the way to go.....

08/20/2007, 01:09 PM	#30
DarG Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,515	I did this not too long ago. I was expecting SE, because of the shield used on DE, to have a good edge. But actually, it's not the case. I was surprised to find that the DE manufacturers have done a good job in recent years. You would have to go through every example of every bulb type that Sanjay tested in which the manufacturer has both versions in the same wattages and color tenmperatures to do an actual count (and that doesnt consider the ones he didnt test) but just taking a random look ... it seems that it is close enough to call it pretty even. I think that SE probably still has the slight edge but you can easily find examples to support either the SE or DE argument.

08/20/2007, 01:25 PM	#33
DarG Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,515	No Rich, I'm comparing with the respective ballasts that get the most par from the respective bulbs. The exception being I'm not putting SE's on HQI ballasts.

08/20/2007, 01:41 PM	#36
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	lets see what the man says about this.... Conclusion The 150W double ended lamps are very attractive choice for lighting, and in fact we feel they are a better choice when compared to the 175W single ended lamps â€“ based on the fact they produce as much light as the 175W lamps and consume less electricity. Also, the smaller size of the lamp makes it more effective in a reflective fixture. The electronic ballasts for the 150W lamps are also attractive because of the size, weight and heat issues, but they seem to slightly under drive the lamps as compared to the magnetic ballast. Also, it is quite clear that there is very little difference in the light output for the 3 electronic ballasts, the IceCap, Reliable and Aromat ballast. The Hellolightâ€™s ballast is not likely a true 150W ballast, since it is rated for 175W also. These results are for new lamps and based on a sample size of one. Eventually we would like to develop an understanding of how these double ended bulbs age with different ballast combinations.

08/20/2007, 02:06 PM	#37
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	Do we need to get into this? I think I went through about 20 150w/175w bulbs in the "Which is better, 150DE/175SE", and almost every single SE bulb had higher par than its DE counterpart. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

08/20/2007, 02:29 PM	#38
DarG Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,515	Aquaconnect 14K DE - HQI - 82 SE - E - 96 AB 10K DE - HQI - 104 SE - M58 - 101 Coralvue 15K DE - HQI - 54 SE - E - 47 20K DE - HQI - 54 SE - E - 60 EVC 10K DE - HQI - 147 SE - E - 110 14K DE - HQI - 66 SE- E - 71 20K DE - HQI - 64 SE - E - 57 Happy Reefing 10K DE - HQI - 101 SE - M58 - 128 14K DE - E - 95 SE - E - 67 20K DE - HQI - 84 SE - E - 79 PFO 11K Krystal Star DE - HQI - 82 SE - M58 - 131 Sun Aquatics 10K DE - HQI - 116 SE - M58 - 111 14K DE - HQI - 61 SE - E - 47 20K DE - HQI - 64 SE - E - 67 Ushio 10K DE - HQI - 84 SE - M58 - 118 XM 10K DE - HQI - 109 SE - E - 121 15K DE - E - 54 SE - E - 66 20K DE - HQI - 42 SE - E - 44 That's all the 250 watt where a manufacturer had both a DE and SE version of the same Color Temperature and apparent line. E = Electronic ballast ... I used the number for the e-ballast that got the highest PPFD from the bulb. The numbers for the DE's were all checked for the Shielded bulb. For the SE's I used the Unshielded numbers. Like I said, I was surprised to find that it was pretty even with SE still having a slight edge. Its' 10 to 8 SE to DE. Some of them were so close, within 4 or 5 PPFD, that it's probably insignifigant. I use DE but I chose it initially because of the shield and my particular interest in one bulb and one particular fixture. I did not want to have a bulb exposed to the water and it didnt make much sense to shield and already shielded SE bulb. I didnt care which way this actually went. I never try to sway anyone into going DE or SE. I have no vested interest in seeing DE bulbs rule the world. I was just sharing an observation. Of course, it was challenged So here it is. I guess it backs up my initial observation pretty well. Last edited by DarG; 08/20/2007 at 02:37 PM.

08/20/2007, 02:37 PM	#39
Horace Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 5,009	DarG, All I am saying is that most of the time SE is the winner (you proved it 8 out of 10), which directly contradicts what some have been saying in this thread. I am not trying to push anyone either way either. I have used DE with much success, however, I will say I had a hell of a time finding a bulb that was my color taste, and had good output. I essentially went with DE for a single bulb...The Phoenix 14k. If not for that bulb, I would have had ZERO interest in DE bulbs honestly. Recently I switched from the Phoenix to a 400w XM 20k because I wanted more PAR than the Phoenix, and keep the blue or slightly blue color. __________________ -Horace Pinker Current Tank Info: New 180g Mixed SPS Build in progress

08/20/2007, 02:49 PM	#40
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	Okay, so theyre "relatively close" and yet the SE uses 30% less electricity. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

08/20/2007, 02:57 PM	#41
DarG Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,515	We werent talking about par per watt

08/20/2007, 03:11 PM	#42
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	does anyone have the article where sanjay is talking about 250watt de vs 400watt SE?

08/20/2007, 04:11 PM	#44
DarG Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,515	That's a generalization. I could be using a 250 watt DE on HQI ballast that runs at 280 watts. It depends on the bulb. They arent all up there at 350 watts.

08/20/2007, 05:51 PM	#47
HaroldT Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Fresno, California Posts: 582	I have been using the SE XM 10K and have been happy with it. Bright. Good coral growth.

08/20/2007, 06:53 PM	#48
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	You have both overlooked one big thing though in comparing SE to DE... life. DE's may start out lower, but they will keep that output for a longer time. There are some who report only 10% loss of output after a year with DE. A pheonix on Icecaps will stay at 75% output after a year, and about 85% on HQI (although not as blue)Most every SE bulb after a year is overdue for a change. Some with as little as 40% of their starting output. I have yet to see someone running a SE bulb for 3 years like you can with some HQI's. The figures that Sanjay gives are after a hundred or so hours of runtime. If you were to compare the figures over the course of a year, many of those DE bulbs that lose out to their SE counterparts in the start will continue to run just fine while the SE's fade.

08/21/2007, 03:12 PM	#49
luv951 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Washougal, WA Posts: 841	Hahn, Thanks for the reading- do you have more?....I keep trying to search, but can't stay up late enough to find it working ; ) If I may be so bold, what setup do you have for lighting? At this point, it seems to me that the benefits of a properly matched DE setup outweigh the benefits offered by SE bulbs....does that sound about correct? __________________ "Ummm, you do realize that you just took a picture of a cup of poo, right?" -my wife

08/21/2007, 03:17 PM	#50
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	To me, yes, the benefits of a properly matched DE setup outweight those of a SE setup. Want to see my lighting... click on the red house. My 48x30x21"h tank is lit by a single 250wattDE pendant on a light rail with a Ushio 14,000K bulb. I also have 4x54wattT5s for an ambient blue look, but Im thinking about disconnecting two of the T5s and just using the blue+ bulbs.... the actinics dont do much (the ushio has loads of actinic), and for some corals, it might be too much it seems.