Proper PH 8.2 from aquarium Pharmaceuticals killed my fish!!

nemodude · 01/02/2007, 05:17 PM

Can someone explain to me why adding Proper PH 8.2 would raise my ammonia level? I've never had trouble with this product before, but the last time I used it, I knew something was wrong right from the getgo. When I first put it in the tank, I noticed air bubbles coming off of the gravel bed, which never happened before. The fish seemed fine, so I thought nothing of it at first. The next day I woke up and my water had a grey haze and the fish were swimming sideways and gasping for air at the surface. Before I had time to do anything, my ammonia level went from 0ppm the night before to over 5 ppm killing virtually everything in my tank!! I understand that PH, calcium, and alkalinity have a delicate balance, but what would have caused the rise in ammonia. Does raising the PH turn other compounds into ammonia, or did the sudden change in alkalinity or calcium kill off the aerobic bacteria causing the ammonia spike?

chrisstie · 01/02/2007, 06:01 PM

could it have been a product that expired? i have no idea =\
try the chem forums too?

nemodude · 01/02/2007, 06:05 PM

should I just post this same question in the chem forums?

SDguy · 01/02/2007, 07:39 PM

I would double check the chem forum. Randy's a smart fella. I do know that LiveAquaria mentions not to put an airstone into the water of a newly shipped fish, because it will increase pH and cause an ammonia spike, but they really didn't describe the chemistry behind it.

Samala · 01/02/2007, 09:42 PM

Could a dramatic change in pH, alk or calcium levels caused an imbalance shocking enough to kill the biofilter? I cant think of a reason why not. They're not typically sooo delicate, but if it was a serious spike in normal water quality values, then anything is possible. Accumulating ammonia from their deaths and fish waste overnight could conceivably shoot ammonia up to 5ppm, especially in a 15 gallon.

I cant think, offhand, why the product would bubble upon contact with the substrate. Was this a new bottle? One that you have had around for awhile?

>Sarah

nemodude · 01/03/2007, 04:09 PM

This actually happened in my 55 gallon FO tank about a year ago. After this problem, the ammonia kept rising, until it was off the charts, (about 10ppm) so I was forced to take the tank down. I got rid of all my substrate, thinking that all that dead bacteria would be hard to remove to be able to use the gravel and sand again. And it was not a new bottle. I had it for about 6 months. I've used it before out of that same bottle though, using the same dosage and had no problems before. Could it be that it reacted with the newly added live silica sand, because I've later found out that silica sand is not good to use in a saltwater aquarium?

demos10 · 01/03/2007, 06:51 PM

where did you here silica sand was bad.This is a perpetual myth.I have been running silica sand bed for 5 years.There are many reefers here on rc doing the same.

nemodude · 01/05/2007, 12:16 AM

I read in one of Bob Goemans books that silica sand causes excessive algae growth. I think is was the book called "Water Quality Guidelines for Marine Aquariums." I bought it at ThatFishPlace in Lancaster PA. He has another book called "Live Sand Secrets," that is a really good read.

reefshadow · 01/05/2007, 12:30 AM

Silica is fine, if it is indeed silica.

Personally I would doubt that this product caused such an ammonia spike, unless it was adulterated in some fashion. I would look at other possibilities first, JMO.

boxfishpooalot · 01/05/2007, 01:59 AM

sounds strange.

Ammonia is typically going to collect after somthing dies unnoticed or an increase in leftover food additions are rotting somwhere.

Do you have any enemies?

What fish were in that aquarium?

Why not use just baking soda and raise ph that way. It will also raise the alkalinity too. Proper Ph 8.2 is misleading because it implies that you can dump in all you want to maintain proper ph. This is not true at all. Chances are all thats in proper ph is sodium bicarbonate(baking soda).

If you added proper ph all the time, you may have killed your fish. Dead fish will lead to ammonia being that high.

How old was this tank?

nemodude · 01/07/2007, 08:27 PM

I had two green chromis and a Philippine Chevron Butterflyfish. The tank had been running for about a year and a half when the problem happened.

nemodude · 08/24/2007, 09:26 PM

and I've only added Proper ph 8.2 two times in about a year

Peter Eichler · 08/25/2007, 12:51 AM

Did you justa continue a thought from over 7 months ago?

SDguy · 08/25/2007, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Did you justa continue a thought from over 7 months ago?

How does that happen?

sean48183 · 08/25/2007, 07:52 AM

I think he should reverse his signature.

Percula9 · 08/25/2007, 10:27 PM

Ammonia becomes more toxic as PH goes up. Ammonia exists in two forms. NH3 and NH4. As Ph goes down NH3 is shifted to NH4 which is non toxic. As PH goes up NH4 is shifted to NH3. These two things exist in an equilibrium. The PH shifts the balance to one or the other.

01/02/2007, 05:17 PM	#1
nemodude Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Pottstown PA Posts: 83	Proper PH 8.2 from aquarium Pharmaceuticals killed my fish!! Can someone explain to me why adding Proper PH 8.2 would raise my ammonia level? I've never had trouble with this product before, but the last time I used it, I knew something was wrong right from the getgo. When I first put it in the tank, I noticed air bubbles coming off of the gravel bed, which never happened before. The fish seemed fine, so I thought nothing of it at first. The next day I woke up and my water had a grey haze and the fish were swimming sideways and gasping for air at the surface. Before I had time to do anything, my ammonia level went from 0ppm the night before to over 5 ppm killing virtually everything in my tank!! I understand that PH, calcium, and alkalinity have a delicate balance, but what would have caused the rise in ammonia. Does raising the PH turn other compounds into ammonia, or did the sudden change in alkalinity or calcium kill off the aerobic bacteria causing the ammonia spike?

01/02/2007, 06:01 PM	#2
chrisstie Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 4,727	could it have been a product that expired? i have no idea =\ try the chem forums too? __________________ You lookin' at my wrasse? Current Tank Info: I find it odd that there are children starving in this country and yet we euthanize millions of stray dogs and cats every year and then incinerate the bodies. Not only that, but we make it illegal to butcher the meat. -MarkS

01/02/2007, 06:05 PM	#3
nemodude Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Pottstown PA Posts: 83	should I just post this same question in the chem forums? __________________ I don't smoke the reefer. I am a reefer. Current Tank Info: 15 gallon FOWLR

01/02/2007, 07:39 PM	#4
SDguy Fish heads unite! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 23,384	I would double check the chem forum. Randy's a smart fella. I do know that LiveAquaria mentions not to put an airstone into the water of a newly shipped fish, because it will increase pH and cause an ammonia spike, but they really didn't describe the chemistry behind it. __________________ Peter SDMAS member Marine tanks since 1989. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º> Current Tank Info: 240g butterfly and angel FOWLR. 15g QT.

01/02/2007, 09:42 PM	#5
Samala Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,930	Could a dramatic change in pH, alk or calcium levels caused an imbalance shocking enough to kill the biofilter? I cant think of a reason why not. They're not typically sooo delicate, but if it was a serious spike in normal water quality values, then anything is possible. Accumulating ammonia from their deaths and fish waste overnight could conceivably shoot ammonia up to 5ppm, especially in a 15 gallon. I cant think, offhand, why the product would bubble upon contact with the substrate. Was this a new bottle? One that you have had around for awhile? >Sarah __________________ "Seaweed is cool, seaweed is fun, it makes its food from the rays of the sun!"

01/03/2007, 04:09 PM	#6
nemodude Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Pottstown PA Posts: 83	This actually happened in my 55 gallon FO tank about a year ago. After this problem, the ammonia kept rising, until it was off the charts, (about 10ppm) so I was forced to take the tank down. I got rid of all my substrate, thinking that all that dead bacteria would be hard to remove to be able to use the gravel and sand again. And it was not a new bottle. I had it for about 6 months. I've used it before out of that same bottle though, using the same dosage and had no problems before. Could it be that it reacted with the newly added live silica sand, because I've later found out that silica sand is not good to use in a saltwater aquarium? __________________ I don't smoke the reefer. I am a reefer. Current Tank Info: 15 gallon FOWLR

01/03/2007, 06:51 PM	#7
demos10 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: goodlettsville, Tn Posts: 125	where did you here silica sand was bad.This is a perpetual myth.I have been running silica sand bed for 5 years.There are many reefers here on rc doing the same.

01/05/2007, 12:16 AM	#8
nemodude Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Pottstown PA Posts: 83	I read in one of Bob Goemans books that silica sand causes excessive algae growth. I think is was the book called "Water Quality Guidelines for Marine Aquariums." I bought it at ThatFishPlace in Lancaster PA. He has another book called "Live Sand Secrets," that is a really good read. __________________ I don't smoke the reefer. I am a reefer. Current Tank Info: 15 gallon FOWLR

01/05/2007, 12:30 AM	#9
reefshadow Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Central Washington Posts: 1,786	Silica is fine, if it is indeed silica. Personally I would doubt that this product caused such an ammonia spike, unless it was adulterated in some fashion. I would look at other possibilities first, JMO. __________________ All Your Coral Are Belong To Us Current Tank Info: 30 Deep Blue shallow mixed rimless, MP10, Ecoxotic LED's, SCA 301 skimmer.

01/05/2007, 01:59 AM	#10
boxfishpooalot Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada, Grande Praire, Ab Posts: 5,824	sounds strange. Ammonia is typically going to collect after somthing dies unnoticed or an increase in leftover food additions are rotting somwhere. Do you have any enemies? What fish were in that aquarium? Why not use just baking soda and raise ph that way. It will also raise the alkalinity too. Proper Ph 8.2 is misleading because it implies that you can dump in all you want to maintain proper ph. This is not true at all. Chances are all thats in proper ph is sodium bicarbonate(baking soda). If you added proper ph all the time, you may have killed your fish. Dead fish will lead to ammonia being that high. How old was this tank? __________________ Its a good idea to have a refrence sample for alk test kits. 1.1350 grams of baking soda in 1gallon of distilled water=10dkh. Check your alkalinity test kit! Algae is Mother Natures phosphate remover Current Tank Info: 220 galon mixed reef.

01/07/2007, 08:27 PM	#11
nemodude Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Pottstown PA Posts: 83	I had two green chromis and a Philippine Chevron Butterflyfish. The tank had been running for about a year and a half when the problem happened. __________________ I don't smoke the reefer. I am a reefer. Current Tank Info: 15 gallon FOWLR

08/24/2007, 09:26 PM	#12
nemodude Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Pottstown PA Posts: 83	and I've only added Proper ph 8.2 two times in about a year __________________ I don't smoke the reefer. I am a reefer. Current Tank Info: 15 gallon FOWLR

08/25/2007, 12:51 AM	#13
Peter Eichler Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 6,081	Did you justa continue a thought from over 7 months ago? __________________ April 2015 TOTM

08/25/2007, 07:52 AM	#15
sean48183 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 1,577	I think he should reverse his signature.

08/25/2007, 10:27 PM	#16
Percula9 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 3,819	Ammonia becomes more toxic as PH goes up. Ammonia exists in two forms. NH3 and NH4. As Ph goes down NH3 is shifted to NH4 which is non toxic. As PH goes up NH4 is shifted to NH3. These two things exist in an equilibrium. The PH shifts the balance to one or the other.