Salinity Controller for automated water change?

CleveYank · 12/13/2007, 04:26 PM

How many would want to have the ability to automate their water changes with a controller that would keep their pre-mixed water changing level (as you used it) at the same set specific gravity?

Yes or No

How did this question arise?

I called a couple companies that make controllers.

I inquired why they cannot make a Salinity Controller.

Before I get to that punchline. I will establish the scenario.

If for example on my systems that run 4 tanks totalling well over 400 gallons with sumps and skimmers. 300 of which is being put on one loop.

If I could mix say 100 gallons of saltwater? And I had a specific gravity controller. I could setup up time and duration of a timer to pump out say 30 gallons per week from a pre-mixed batch of saltwater. This would allow automated 10% weekly water changes. Specific gravity would be set with my mix. I would have another container for mixing and pump it into the water change batch tank with the controller on it or kill the power and mix it in the batch container. The result? I could stay ahead of the water changes for 2 to 3 weeks at a time and everything would pump and mix and the SALINITY CONTROLLER would keep my water change batch whether at 100, 70 or 40 gallon levels at the "set" specific gravity. If all you had to do was scoop, fill, mix, pump, and have pump down out of system into drain, the automation would do the rest. Basically as long as timers and controller were on backups just like everything else around our tanks. It would be rather streamlined. Vacations or just busy, within reason, another facet of system care would be that much easier once you had it dialed in. Keeping the specific gravity/salinity of ready mixed water that could have a level change as you used it would be the key.

PUNCHLINE with my original controller question.

My phone calls resulted to this end.

Company X, stated "there has not been any demand for this and their "market research" has indicated that there is little to no demand for this whatsoever."

Company Q, said "the demand for this would be very low and that they were concerned that some folks would turn their reef/salt tanks into brakish or freshwater tanks and currently the monitor that we have in production is sufficient enough."

After getting off the phone with them a few questions hit.
Company X, what sector of the population/hobbyist and where did they research this?
And Company Q, do they think or are saltwater hobbyist that stupid?
And lastly with company Q, why would you need a monitor to do something that takes a 10 second dip of a hydrometer or a glance at the sump showing water level IE make up water is getting where it needs to go to account for evaporation?
And did either of the 2 folks at their respective companies ever own a salt/reef tank in which to accurately judge; whether a controller to be used for water change automation would be worthwhile to the hobby?

So,
Hence my question to the 2 unnamed companies and the poll outward about a Salinity Controller.

Answer the poll and please tell me your thoughts.

pdfb55 · 12/13/2007, 04:34 PM

If it were reasonably priced I would buy it. The more automated I make my tank the more I get to enjoy it rather than doing matainence.

seapug · 12/13/2007, 04:42 PM

You can easily plumb a reservior with a valve that drains into your sump and make a T in your return to dump water down a drain from a piece of vinyl tubing, so the only function this device would perform is mixing salt and water, which IMO, is one of the easier tasks involved in this hobby. You'd be spending a bunch of money to save yourself the hassle of turning a couple valves once/week and scooping salt into the water to mix it.

a2fire2i · 12/13/2007, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pdfb55
If it were reasonably priced I would buy it.

That would be one of my guesses why there already isnt one around..

itZme · 12/13/2007, 05:00 PM

The AquaController 3 PRO can measure and control salinity by using a conductivity probe. Didn't know if you were aware of that.

m2434 · 12/13/2007, 05:06 PM

They do exist and are commonly found in the aquaculture industry.

CleveYank · 12/13/2007, 05:14 PM

ok, to address afordability, pH controller is a pH monitor with the additon of a set on and off point with a switch and an electrical plug.

Any montior that has a controller on it works the same. IF the condition is met to turn it on at the set point then the power plug to turn it on or off is the same. Whatever is plugged into it will be triggered by that set point. Whether it's a heater controller or a pH controller or whatever. And most of the single use controllers are in the $100 to $200 price range. So the if it's affordable issue is not there. When I had a 55 salt tank with rock and sand and total system volume of 40 to 45 gallons a 10% was 4 gallons or so was a piece of cake. But I still could not setup automation for out of town. Oh and I'm going to leave that to my tank sitter...no thanks. And I still had to mix it the day before I needed it and remember to get back to it. Automated water changes. IF a salinity monitor that's on the market now costs $115 and their pH controller costs $190 then salinity controller should not cost more than $200. And if as pdfb55 said, "The more automated I make my tank the more I get to enjoy it rather than doing matainence. " I don't see it as a cost issue nor a unrequired luxury.

CleveYank · 12/13/2007, 05:21 PM

itZme
AquaController 3 PRO, I thought those still used X-10's and at $649 I cannot see paying that kind of money for something that works so poorly. I used their other pro setup years back and the X-10's were always needing resetting and more hassle than they were worth.

aninjaatemyshoe · 12/13/2007, 06:37 PM

I voted yes, but I think there is one major problem: accuracy. From what I understand, salinity monitors are not very accurate and need calibrated often. If there was a very good reliable salinity monitor that I could trust and didn't need to calibrate very often, then I would definitely want one. Otherwise, I think it would be more hassle than what you're trying to avoid.

OranguTang · 12/13/2007, 07:09 PM

The AC no longer uses the X-10 but the direct connect modules.

itZme · 12/13/2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CleveYank
itZme
AquaController 3 PRO, I thought those still used X-10's and at $649 I cannot see paying that kind of money for something that works so poorly. I used their other pro setup years back and the X-10's were always needing resetting and more hassle than they were worth.

Nope, the AC PRO did use X10 but the AC3 PRO is a more advanced version of the AC3. Their site says it uses "Hardwired Direct Connect Modules". When I clicked the link it showed the DC8, DC4 and DC4HD.

Roy G. Biv · 12/13/2007, 07:26 PM

Not only do the ac's use newer direct connect modules, they can use X10 in addition to this. I can write something that can do this with the conductivity probe. It would work with an automatic feeder (the pond one) to dispense salt instead of feed. The issue would be not to let the salt clump.

OranguTang · 12/13/2007, 07:42 PM

How would that vary with different salt brands? Different salt can produce different sg. Also how would you program the pump? On a xx time = xx grams type formula? Would you add salt to the pump and have it run for a few seconds to determine its output?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 12/14/2007, 08:16 AM

I voted no. I do automatic water changes now (1% daily) with a fixed volume per day using a dual head pump. I would not want a machine to determine the salinity of the new salt water because, IMO, there is too much cause for concern that it might get made up incorrectly. I make up 88 gallons at a time and it only takes a few minutes with pumps in place to do all the work. But I want personal control of the salt that goes in. I also add Dowflake and MAG flake to each batch, which would not automate well.

CleveYank · 12/14/2007, 12:15 PM

wrote to these folks.
http://www.aquatronica.it/products-1...faces/acq210-d

Maybe they have useful functionality/control and not just monitor.

itZme,
Like to see one in action. Kinda like Coralife, dolphin, rio, I don't have alot of confidence in any of the Aquacontroller products due to x-10 reason I mentioned.

Randy Holmes-Farley I agree to some degree but disagree to another. And dosing is a completely different animal. With the vacation example, if you are getting the water changes in then additive level drop off and of course prevention of nutrient climb on an automated system would build in some of that dosing. You could probably bump up some of the additive values within the "automated water change batch" to counter that. Negative impact of tank user not being there with measured vials and all would be kept to a minimum under automated water changes. Probably less fluctuation that no water changes in that 2 to 3 week period would cause.

Dosing 400 gallons takes a few mintues. On the other hand, pumping and replacing on pre-mix non-automated setup still requires babysitting. And unless you have spent $500 on a pump that will push 80 GPM (not hour) then you have to babysit all of that. I am not talking about mindless set it and forget it. And like any automation checks and balances would have to be worked in. But quick checks are easier than whipping out test kits when you know X amount of food is going in. X amount of water changes are being exactly routinely performed via some automation. And you know that X amount of bioload exists. Don't like the way it's set or think calibration has slipped? Just kill power to that loop. Recalibrate and reset. Life goes on. And with less system babysitting.

I wish I had taken more classes on hardware that the medium level programming I learned is run on. I'd just build one myself. And to think we recieve images from across the galaxy. You trying to tell me that we cannot have SG measurement with full control functionality to automate water changes with low rate of failure on a coral aquarium? Especially when SG monitors already exist? I'm as big of a hands-on control freak as the next guy. But watching water pump out and water pump in is one of my tolerations within the hobby I love right up there with hand kalk nuking aptasia. So close...So close and yet so far...

I am going to have to track down someone with the pro III and see if they have tried anything like what I am suggesting or if the inherent gliches I found with their prior products really no longer exist.

The Aquatronica folks are skyrocket priced with all the bells and such. But they appear to have alot of quality and support behind their product. We'll see what they have to say.

Thanks to all who have voted and commented thusfar btw.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 12/14/2007, 12:29 PM

Randy Holmes-Farley I agree to some degree but disagree to another. And dosing is a completely different animal. With the vacation example, if you are getting the water changes in then additive level drop off and of course prevention of nutrient climb on an automated system would build in some of that dosing.

I'm not talking about dosing the tank. I'm talking about dosing into the new salt water before the change. That's the only place I add Dowflake or MAG flake. I never measure them, I just add a standard fixed amount to each 88 gallon batch.

Dosing 400 gallons takes a few mintues. On the other hand, pumping and replacing on pre-mix non-automated setup still requires babysitting. And unless you have spent $500 on a pump that will push 80 GPM (not hour) then you have to babysit all of that.

Not really. I collect RO/DI in an 88 gallon container. All I do to make new salt water is flip a switch for a powerhead, let it pump all of the 88 gallons into the salt water container, and then come back later to add salt, flip another switch to turn on a stirring powerhead, and walk away again. Really it takes less than 5 minutes of attention per 88 gallons.

CleveYank · 12/14/2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
That's the only place I add Dowflake or MAG flake. I never measure them, I just add a standard fixed amount to each 88 gallon batch.

Not really. I collect RO/DI in an 88 gallon container. All I do to make new salt water is flip a switch for a powerhead, let it pump all of the 88 gallons into the salt water container, and then come back later to add salt, flip another switch to turn on a stirring powerhead, and walk away again. Really it takes less than 5 minutes of attention per 88 gallons.

Yeah Randy, lots of I's in there.
I collect, I switch, I walk back, I switch again, IE to a more or lesser degree, I babysit each waterchange.
That's my point.
The teckicknologee should be able to allow the I's to not have to be working the switches. IF the monitor is there the controller is a stones throw away. But alas we agree to disagree, that's all.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 12/14/2007, 01:28 PM

But alas we agree to disagree, that's all.

OK.

CleveYank · 12/17/2007, 10:24 AM

re-loop

willtel76 · 12/17/2007, 02:45 PM

Why not use the Litermeter III water exchange system? It uses two calibrated pumps to remove and add a set amount of water each day.

All you have to do is mix the new water to the correct SG and turn the pumps on. Depending on the size of the reservoir you could go for weeks without touching it.

I don't see the need to tie water changes to salinity monitoring unless your trying to create a device that will mix the salt with the water at the correct ratio, if you figure that out let me know.

View Poll Results: How many would want a Salinity Controller for Automated water changes
Yes	12	66.67%
No	6	33.33%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

12/13/2007, 04:26 PM	#1
CleveYank 20 Years and Over Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 3,052	Salinity Controller for automated water change? How many would want to have the ability to automate their water changes with a controller that would keep their pre-mixed water changing level (as you used it) at the same set specific gravity? Yes or No How did this question arise? I called a couple companies that make controllers. I inquired why they cannot make a Salinity Controller. Before I get to that punchline. I will establish the scenario. If for example on my systems that run 4 tanks totalling well over 400 gallons with sumps and skimmers. 300 of which is being put on one loop. If I could mix say 100 gallons of saltwater? And I had a specific gravity controller. I could setup up time and duration of a timer to pump out say 30 gallons per week from a pre-mixed batch of saltwater. This would allow automated 10% weekly water changes. Specific gravity would be set with my mix. I would have another container for mixing and pump it into the water change batch tank with the controller on it or kill the power and mix it in the batch container. The result? I could stay ahead of the water changes for 2 to 3 weeks at a time and everything would pump and mix and the SALINITY CONTROLLER would keep my water change batch whether at 100, 70 or 40 gallon levels at the "set" specific gravity. If all you had to do was scoop, fill, mix, pump, and have pump down out of system into drain, the automation would do the rest. Basically as long as timers and controller were on backups just like everything else around our tanks. It would be rather streamlined. Vacations or just busy, within reason, another facet of system care would be that much easier once you had it dialed in. Keeping the specific gravity/salinity of ready mixed water that could have a level change as you used it would be the key. PUNCHLINE with my original controller question. My phone calls resulted to this end. Company X, stated "there has not been any demand for this and their "market research" has indicated that there is little to no demand for this whatsoever." Company Q, said "the demand for this would be very low and that they were concerned that some folks would turn their reef/salt tanks into brakish or freshwater tanks and currently the monitor that we have in production is sufficient enough." After getting off the phone with them a few questions hit. Company X, what sector of the population/hobbyist and where did they research this? And Company Q, do they think or are saltwater hobbyist that stupid? And lastly with company Q, why would you need a monitor to do something that takes a 10 second dip of a hydrometer or a glance at the sump showing water level IE make up water is getting where it needs to go to account for evaporation? And did either of the 2 folks at their respective companies ever own a salt/reef tank in which to accurately judge; whether a controller to be used for water change automation would be worthwhile to the hobby? So, Hence my question to the 2 unnamed companies and the poll outward about a Salinity Controller. Answer the poll and please tell me your thoughts.

12/13/2007, 04:34 PM	#2
pdfb55 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 357	If it were reasonably priced I would buy it. The more automated I make my tank the more I get to enjoy it rather than doing matainence. __________________ -Kyle Current Tank Info: Oceanic 120 Tech, 48 inch maristar fixture, MRC Skimmer, Geo 618 Reactor, 2x Vortech MP40w, APEX controller

12/13/2007, 04:42 PM	#3
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	You can easily plumb a reservior with a valve that drains into your sump and make a T in your return to dump water down a drain from a piece of vinyl tubing, so the only function this device would perform is mixing salt and water, which IMO, is one of the easier tasks involved in this hobby. You'd be spending a bunch of money to save yourself the hassle of turning a couple valves once/week and scooping salt into the water to mix it. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

12/13/2007, 05:06 PM	#6
m2434 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,171	They do exist and are commonly found in the aquaculture industry. __________________ Our imagination is stretched to the utmost, not, as in fiction, to imagine things which are not really there, but just to comprehend those things which are there. ~Richard Feynman

12/13/2007, 05:00 PM	#5
itZme Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: High Springs, FL Posts: 2,944	The AquaController 3 PRO can measure and control salinity by using a conductivity probe. Didn't know if you were aware of that.

12/13/2007, 05:14 PM	#7
CleveYank 20 Years and Over Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 3,052	ok, to address afordability, pH controller is a pH monitor with the additon of a set on and off point with a switch and an electrical plug. Any montior that has a controller on it works the same. IF the condition is met to turn it on at the set point then the power plug to turn it on or off is the same. Whatever is plugged into it will be triggered by that set point. Whether it's a heater controller or a pH controller or whatever. And most of the single use controllers are in the $100 to $200 price range. So the if it's affordable issue is not there. When I had a 55 salt tank with rock and sand and total system volume of 40 to 45 gallons a 10% was 4 gallons or so was a piece of cake. But I still could not setup automation for out of town. Oh and I'm going to leave that to my tank sitter...no thanks. And I still had to mix it the day before I needed it and remember to get back to it. Automated water changes. IF a salinity monitor that's on the market now costs $115 and their pH controller costs $190 then salinity controller should not cost more than $200. And if as pdfb55 said, "The more automated I make my tank the more I get to enjoy it rather than doing matainence. " I don't see it as a cost issue nor a unrequired luxury.

12/13/2007, 05:21 PM	#8
CleveYank 20 Years and Over Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 3,052	itZme AquaController 3 PRO, I thought those still used X-10's and at $649 I cannot see paying that kind of money for something that works so poorly. I used their other pro setup years back and the X-10's were always needing resetting and more hassle than they were worth.

12/13/2007, 06:37 PM	#9
aninjaatemyshoe Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 2,333	I voted yes, but I think there is one major problem: accuracy. From what I understand, salinity monitors are not very accurate and need calibrated often. If there was a very good reliable salinity monitor that I could trust and didn't need to calibrate very often, then I would definitely want one. Otherwise, I think it would be more hassle than what you're trying to avoid. __________________ You are not brought upon this world to "get it"

12/13/2007, 07:09 PM	#10
OranguTang NULL Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 977	The AC no longer uses the X-10 but the direct connect modules. __________________ -Marc

12/13/2007, 07:26 PM	#12
Roy G. Biv Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 3,646	Not only do the ac's use newer direct connect modules, they can use X10 in addition to this. I can write something that can do this with the conductivity probe. It would work with an automatic feeder (the pond one) to dispense salt instead of feed. The issue would be not to let the salt clump.

12/13/2007, 07:42 PM	#13
OranguTang NULL Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 977	How would that vary with different salt brands? Different salt can produce different sg. Also how would you program the pump? On a xx time = xx grams type formula? Would you add salt to the pump and have it run for a few seconds to determine its output? __________________ -Marc

12/14/2007, 08:16 AM	#14
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I voted no. I do automatic water changes now (1% daily) with a fixed volume per day using a dual head pump. I would not want a machine to determine the salinity of the new salt water because, IMO, there is too much cause for concern that it might get made up incorrectly. I make up 88 gallons at a time and it only takes a few minutes with pumps in place to do all the work. But I want personal control of the salt that goes in. I also add Dowflake and MAG flake to each batch, which would not automate well. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

12/14/2007, 12:15 PM	#15
CleveYank 20 Years and Over Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 3,052	Maybe Aquatronica wrote to these folks. http://www.aquatronica.it/products-1...faces/acq210-d Maybe they have useful functionality/control and not just monitor. itZme, Like to see one in action. Kinda like Coralife, dolphin, rio, I don't have alot of confidence in any of the Aquacontroller products due to x-10 reason I mentioned. Randy Holmes-Farley I agree to some degree but disagree to another. And dosing is a completely different animal. With the vacation example, if you are getting the water changes in then additive level drop off and of course prevention of nutrient climb on an automated system would build in some of that dosing. You could probably bump up some of the additive values within the "automated water change batch" to counter that. Negative impact of tank user not being there with measured vials and all would be kept to a minimum under automated water changes. Probably less fluctuation that no water changes in that 2 to 3 week period would cause. Dosing 400 gallons takes a few mintues. On the other hand, pumping and replacing on pre-mix non-automated setup still requires babysitting. And unless you have spent $500 on a pump that will push 80 GPM (not hour) then you have to babysit all of that. I am not talking about mindless set it and forget it. And like any automation checks and balances would have to be worked in. But quick checks are easier than whipping out test kits when you know X amount of food is going in. X amount of water changes are being exactly routinely performed via some automation. And you know that X amount of bioload exists. Don't like the way it's set or think calibration has slipped? Just kill power to that loop. Recalibrate and reset. Life goes on. And with less system babysitting. I wish I had taken more classes on hardware that the medium level programming I learned is run on. I'd just build one myself. And to think we recieve images from across the galaxy. You trying to tell me that we cannot have SG measurement with full control functionality to automate water changes with low rate of failure on a coral aquarium? Especially when SG monitors already exist? I'm as big of a hands-on control freak as the next guy. But watching water pump out and water pump in is one of my tolerations within the hobby I love right up there with hand kalk nuking aptasia. So close...So close and yet so far... I am going to have to track down someone with the pro III and see if they have tried anything like what I am suggesting or if the inherent gliches I found with their prior products really no longer exist. The Aquatronica folks are skyrocket priced with all the bells and such. But they appear to have alot of quality and support behind their product. We'll see what they have to say. Thanks to all who have voted and commented thusfar btw. Last edited by CleveYank; 12/14/2007 at 12:29 PM.

12/14/2007, 12:29 PM	#16
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Randy Holmes-Farley I agree to some degree but disagree to another. And dosing is a completely different animal. With the vacation example, if you are getting the water changes in then additive level drop off and of course prevention of nutrient climb on an automated system would build in some of that dosing. I'm not talking about dosing the tank. I'm talking about dosing into the new salt water before the change. That's the only place I add Dowflake or MAG flake. I never measure them, I just add a standard fixed amount to each 88 gallon batch. Dosing 400 gallons takes a few mintues. On the other hand, pumping and replacing on pre-mix non-automated setup still requires babysitting. And unless you have spent $500 on a pump that will push 80 GPM (not hour) then you have to babysit all of that. Not really. I collect RO/DI in an 88 gallon container. All I do to make new salt water is flip a switch for a powerhead, let it pump all of the 88 gallons into the salt water container, and then come back later to add salt, flip another switch to turn on a stirring powerhead, and walk away again. Really it takes less than 5 minutes of attention per 88 gallons. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

12/14/2007, 01:28 PM	#18
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	But alas we agree to disagree, that's all. OK. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

12/17/2007, 10:24 AM	#19
CleveYank 20 Years and Over Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 3,052	re-loop

12/17/2007, 02:45 PM	#20
willtel76 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta Posts: 113	Why not use the Litermeter III water exchange system? It uses two calibrated pumps to remove and add a set amount of water each day. All you have to do is mix the new water to the correct SG and turn the pumps on. Depending on the size of the reservoir you could go for weeks without touching it. I don't see the need to tie water changes to salinity monitoring unless your trying to create a device that will mix the salt with the water at the correct ratio, if you figure that out let me know.