How to determine return pump size?

moocow · 01/10/2008, 10:01 PM

I have a 58 gallon tank, aiming for about 250-300 GPH.
The distance from the pump to the outlet in the tank is about 5 feet.
Of course there will need to be either 90degree elbows, or 45's.
I know 90's cause A LOT of resistance.

I tried to google this but all I found was that using PVC piping is advised ?AGAINST? on the return line??

It causes less resistance to use flexible vinyl or silicone tubing?
Do most people use flexible vinyl tubing?

Appearance isn't really a big deal, the whole thing will be concealed.
So how do I determine the heading, and what material should I use??

moocow · 01/10/2008, 11:10 PM

bump

FranktheTankTx · 01/10/2008, 11:33 PM

Oh I would highly recommend using flexible return line. Use as little hard pvc as possible. It's so much easier on your pumps w/ flexible line. And you don't have to worry about leaks with all the pvc joints.

I don't know why people use hard pvc.

moocow · 01/10/2008, 11:40 PM

so far flexible seems the way to go. even on the intake side too.

So how do I determine head height?
Could I just guess-timate?
about 5 " plus another foot or two for any bends.
I guess that would put me at about the Mag Drive 5.
Flow rate: 500 gph
max head: 10 ft.
I was planning 300gph+ so I guess that seems good, right?

FranktheTankTx · 01/10/2008, 11:51 PM

Yea, generally you're looking at 3 or 4 feet to the tank. A Mag 5 would put you in the 310-380gph area.
With flexible line, you won't really have the bad bends that occur in hard pvc. I'd say a mag 5 would be fine for what you say you want. Put a ball valve on the return line to control flow. It won't hurt to dial it back slightly if you need.

BreadmanMike · 01/11/2008, 12:07 AM

All you need is 3-5x turnover through your sump. I would use an Eheim 1250. Should be very little head loss using spa-flex.

DanInSD · 01/11/2008, 02:35 AM

I was told that each 90 is equivalent to about 1 foot of head pressure. I agree that the use of as much flex tube as is "reasonable" is the best solution.

Dan

FL.Joe · 01/11/2008, 06:26 AM

seems like flex is the way to go. which is the best to use?

dkh0331 · 01/11/2008, 06:43 AM

flex pvc= flex pvc. There isn't one that is better than another.

Numerous locations online to order - here's one http://www.flexpvc.com/

Some of big boy hardware box stores carry it.

viggen · 01/11/2008, 08:37 AM

I would also go with a eheim pump

I hae used Mag pumps but personally I will never have anotherone inside my house. They are just to noisy.....

Eheims are 2x's the price but they are silent!!!

chris4869 · 01/11/2008, 11:48 PM

I replaced my Mag pump three times so far in a year. IMO the Eheim pump is cheaper in the long run.

I like using vinyl tubing on smaller tank. It absorbs vibration a lot better than hard pvc.

moocow · 01/12/2008, 01:10 AM

so, do you think the eheim 1250 would be okay.
It says 320GPH 6.5 ft max head.
I'm having with the head loss calc. It seems just not right.
Or i'm not using it right which is more likely.
On the DRfostersmith site it says
outlet: 12/16 mm millimeters? geeze. What size tubing is that? 3/4inch?

Anywho should I use that pump or the next one up which the 1260.
Quite a price jump between the two from $70-120. woo.

Note: I'll plan to have power heads inside the tank, plus more than likely an Eheim 2217 canister pump which pushes about 250GPH I believe.

rishma · 01/12/2008, 08:03 AM

Use the attached head loss calculator and pump selection to determine which pump will meet your needs. I think a 1250 is better for your tank, but you can decide.

http://www.reefs.org/pumps/

sjm817 · 01/12/2008, 08:42 AM

Have you decided on the type of overflow yet? A typical Siphon overflow needs 200GPH as a minimum to keep bubbles from accumulating. An Eheim 1250 may struggle to do that. If you are drilling the tank, no issue there. Eheim has a big gap in their pumps. A 1260 moves whole lot more water than a 1250.

Another option if you go HOB is to use a smaller diameter U Tube which needs less flow. Lifereef has them as an option.

rishma · 01/12/2008, 09:13 AM

good point. at 4.5 ft head, my 1250 moves 190 gph. you wont get more. 1260 moves much more.

moocow · 01/12/2008, 03:33 PM

i've for sure decided to drill.
But with the canister filter complimenting. I dunno which to do...just get rid of the canister and plumb the heater inline to the return I guess.

moocow · 01/12/2008, 11:48 PM

here's the issue I have.
Eheim seems to be popular choice. I've had eheim equip before and am happy so seems like a good idea.
Problem is, How the heck do I know what size tubing it takes? the specs say 12/16 mm. What size is that in inches?
Plus when ever I run these number the calc seems to WAAAy underestimate.

4.5 vertical
.75 diameter
eheim 1250
90 degree elbows- 1
45's- 1

that says 168 GPH!?!?!
bah. What the heck.
what's wrong with this?

Should I be pushing the 300+GPH mark with that pump?
the specs say 320 GPH, with 6.5 foot max head.
I don't get it.
and the 1260 isn't even listed...
a little help?

sjm817 · 01/13/2008, 12:00 AM

The Eheims have metric connections. The 1260 is easier to deal with. The threads a very close to 3/4" FPT. You can wrap a 3/4" male fitting with teflon and screw it right in. Not so with the 1250.

No, you wont get 300 GPH from a 1250. That has been posted a couple of times in this thread.

I'd get the 1260, put a ball valve on the output if you want to dial it back some.

01/10/2008, 10:01 PM	#1
moocow Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 226	How to determine return pump size? I have a 58 gallon tank, aiming for about 250-300 GPH. The distance from the pump to the outlet in the tank is about 5 feet. Of course there will need to be either 90degree elbows, or 45's. I know 90's cause A LOT of resistance. I tried to google this but all I found was that using PVC piping is advised ?AGAINST? on the return line?? It causes less resistance to use flexible vinyl or silicone tubing? Do most people use flexible vinyl tubing? Appearance isn't really a big deal, the whole thing will be concealed. So how do I determine the heading, and what material should I use??

01/10/2008, 11:10 PM	#2
moocow Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 226	bump __________________ I swear, for such a small tank.... It sure does seem like a black hole sometimes. Current Tank Info: 28 Nano Cube HQI, Nano tuners upgrade, ReefKeeper Elite, Additional Korlia Nanos (2)

01/10/2008, 11:33 PM	#3
FranktheTankTx Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 2,306	Oh I would highly recommend using flexible return line. Use as little hard pvc as possible. It's so much easier on your pumps w/ flexible line. And you don't have to worry about leaks with all the pvc joints. I don't know why people use hard pvc. __________________ Frank the Tank "What, I thought we were in the trust tree... in the nest? Are we not?" Current Tank Info: Custom Rimless 60g (30.5"x24.5"x18.5")

01/10/2008, 11:40 PM	#4
moocow Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 226	so far flexible seems the way to go. even on the intake side too. So how do I determine head height? Could I just guess-timate? about 5 " plus another foot or two for any bends. I guess that would put me at about the Mag Drive 5. Flow rate: 500 gph max head: 10 ft. I was planning 300gph+ so I guess that seems good, right? __________________ I swear, for such a small tank.... It sure does seem like a black hole sometimes. Current Tank Info: 28 Nano Cube HQI, Nano tuners upgrade, ReefKeeper Elite, Additional Korlia Nanos (2)

01/10/2008, 11:51 PM	#5
FranktheTankTx Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 2,306	Yea, generally you're looking at 3 or 4 feet to the tank. A Mag 5 would put you in the 310-380gph area. With flexible line, you won't really have the bad bends that occur in hard pvc. I'd say a mag 5 would be fine for what you say you want. Put a ball valve on the return line to control flow. It won't hurt to dial it back slightly if you need. __________________ Frank the Tank "What, I thought we were in the trust tree... in the nest? Are we not?" Current Tank Info: Custom Rimless 60g (30.5"x24.5"x18.5")

01/11/2008, 12:07 AM	#6
BreadmanMike Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,886	All you need is 3-5x turnover through your sump. I would use an Eheim 1250. Should be very little head loss using spa-flex.

01/11/2008, 02:35 AM	#7
DanInSD Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,255	I was told that each 90 is equivalent to about 1 foot of head pressure. I agree that the use of as much flex tube as is "reasonable" is the best solution. Dan

01/11/2008, 06:26 AM	#8
FL.Joe Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: St. Petersburg, Fl Posts: 158	seems like flex is the way to go. which is the best to use? __________________ JoJo, Proud Pitbull Daddy Current Tank Info: 135g reef tank, 55g glass sump

01/11/2008, 06:43 AM	#9
dkh0331 Es gibt keinen ersatz Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Close to the edge, down by a river Posts: 3,581	flex pvc= flex pvc. There isn't one that is better than another. Numerous locations online to order - here's one http://www.flexpvc.com/ Some of big boy hardware box stores carry it. __________________ Just found out that grandpa has a drug addiction. He is addicted to viagra. No one is taking it harder than grandma.

01/11/2008, 08:37 AM	#10
viggen Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 2,213	I would also go with a eheim pump I hae used Mag pumps but personally I will never have anotherone inside my house. They are just to noisy..... Eheims are 2x's the price but they are silent!!! __________________ A tub of fish

01/11/2008, 11:48 PM	#11
chris4869 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,006	I replaced my Mag pump three times so far in a year. IMO the Eheim pump is cheaper in the long run. I like using vinyl tubing on smaller tank. It absorbs vibration a lot better than hard pvc.

01/12/2008, 01:10 AM	#12
moocow Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 226	so, do you think the eheim 1250 would be okay. It says 320GPH 6.5 ft max head. I'm having with the head loss calc. It seems just not right. Or i'm not using it right which is more likely. On the DRfostersmith site it says outlet: 12/16 mm millimeters? geeze. What size tubing is that? 3/4inch? Anywho should I use that pump or the next one up which the 1260. Quite a price jump between the two from $70-120. woo. Note: I'll plan to have power heads inside the tank, plus more than likely an Eheim 2217 canister pump which pushes about 250GPH I believe. __________________ I swear, for such a small tank.... It sure does seem like a black hole sometimes. Current Tank Info: 28 Nano Cube HQI, Nano tuners upgrade, ReefKeeper Elite, Additional Korlia Nanos (2)

01/12/2008, 08:03 AM	#13
rishma Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 1,206	Use the attached head loss calculator and pump selection to determine which pump will meet your needs. I think a 1250 is better for your tank, but you can decide. http://www.reefs.org/pumps/ __________________ Reefing since ‘96 Current Tank Info: Silence is golden

01/12/2008, 08:42 AM	#14
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	Have you decided on the type of overflow yet? A typical Siphon overflow needs 200GPH as a minimum to keep bubbles from accumulating. An Eheim 1250 may struggle to do that. If you are drilling the tank, no issue there. Eheim has a big gap in their pumps. A 1260 moves whole lot more water than a 1250. Another option if you go HOB is to use a smaller diameter U Tube which needs less flow. Lifereef has them as an option. __________________ - Scott Last edited by sjm817; 01/12/2008 at 09:16 AM.

01/12/2008, 09:13 AM	#15
rishma Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 1,206	good point. at 4.5 ft head, my 1250 moves 190 gph. you wont get more. 1260 moves much more. __________________ Reefing since ‘96 Current Tank Info: Silence is golden

01/12/2008, 03:33 PM	#16
moocow Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 226	i've for sure decided to drill. But with the canister filter complimenting. I dunno which to do...just get rid of the canister and plumb the heater inline to the return I guess. __________________ I swear, for such a small tank.... It sure does seem like a black hole sometimes. Current Tank Info: 28 Nano Cube HQI, Nano tuners upgrade, ReefKeeper Elite, Additional Korlia Nanos (2)

01/12/2008, 11:48 PM	#17
moocow Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 226	here's the issue I have. Eheim seems to be popular choice. I've had eheim equip before and am happy so seems like a good idea. Problem is, How the heck do I know what size tubing it takes? the specs say 12/16 mm. What size is that in inches? Plus when ever I run these number the calc seems to WAAAy underestimate. 4.5 vertical .75 diameter eheim 1250 90 degree elbows- 1 45's- 1 that says 168 GPH!?!?! bah. What the heck. what's wrong with this? Should I be pushing the 300+GPH mark with that pump? the specs say 320 GPH, with 6.5 foot max head. I don't get it. and the 1260 isn't even listed... a little help? __________________ I swear, for such a small tank.... It sure does seem like a black hole sometimes. Current Tank Info: 28 Nano Cube HQI, Nano tuners upgrade, ReefKeeper Elite, Additional Korlia Nanos (2)

01/13/2008, 12:00 AM	#18
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	The Eheims have metric connections. The 1260 is easier to deal with. The threads a very close to 3/4" FPT. You can wrap a 3/4" male fitting with teflon and screw it right in. Not so with the 1250. No, you wont get 300 GPH from a 1250. That has been posted a couple of times in this thread. I'd get the 1260, put a ball valve on the output if you want to dial it back some. __________________ - Scott