Coral selection and alleopathy

Dr4g0nf1y · 11/24/2007, 10:20 PM

For a long time I've understood that corals will maintain a "biological" warfare against one another with the release of chemicals. The constant and continual answer to this is to make sure you design tanks with "compatible" species.

However! I have not really seen a good discussion on "compatibility".

All of the wonderful tanks you ever see are CRAMMED with sps corals and it stands to reason that you can do that mainly because sps seem to cause the least amount of alleopathy. However not all of us have the setup that is suitable for SPS. So for the rest of us... or mainly just my uneducated brains how about a guide, list or else wise?

awestruck · 11/25/2007, 09:41 AM

I think this is a GREAT question!

I have a book by John H. Tullock called "Natural Reef Aquariums, Simplified Approaches to Creating Living Saltwater Microcosms".

Tullock recommends that when beginning a tank, a person should decide from what part of the world he or she wants to mimic, and only buy animals that live in that part of the world.

For example, Chapter Six of his book explains animals from the Florida Keys and the Caribbean Sea. Chapter Seven is about the Gulf of Mexico, Chapter Eight details the Indo-Pacific etc.

I wonder if often times people have problems because of mixing animals from different parts of the world. Tullock states that introducing a foreign species into a habitat can have all kinds of problems, usually resulting in an animal dying.

Many people do keep species tanks.

I guess regarding compatibility, I don't have a list nor do I know where to find one. Some general things to be aware of are as follows:

1. Some soft corals, like leathers, will fight with stony corals and release toxins which can be quite harmful. So, if you are going to have both you need to run carbon so as to remove the toxins from the water.

2. Most LPS corals should not touch other corals of any kind because they have stingers and will reach out and hurt anything near it. For example, bubble corals, frogspawn, and galaxea are considered aggressive and can kill other animals.

3. Most SPS seem to live peacefully in close proximity to other SPS but you should ask someone who knows more about SPS than I.

I'm not sure if this helps and you might want to try the Advanced Forum to get a better explanation!

seapug · 11/25/2007, 10:14 AM

It's generally not a problem if you keep similar "types" of corals together and different kinds separated. Running carbon and a protien skimmer helps, too.

I have part of my tank dominated by softies, the other part dominated by SPS. I have never noticed any problems EXCEPT for a Green Spaghetti Leather in the softie side. They are known to be pretty toxic and I have seen it cause problems with my toadstool sarcophytums when it touches them (toadstools will stay closed). On the other hand, I've found SPS will try to kill each other when different types touch or nearly touch. If one acro frag happens to fall on another, one of them ends up losing tissue. They will even send out webs of meseteries over small gaps when they sense they are getting too close to one another.

Potsy · 11/25/2007, 11:04 AM

I have a 38 gallon mixed reef that features a large sinularia flexibilis which is considered the most aggressive alleopathic warrior. Nonetheless, its coral tankmates steadily grow, however I have no point of reference since they have always shared space with the sinularia. My montipora grow like weeds and I've had a frogspawn grow from the size of a baseball to that of a large melon. My open brain looks better than ever (now that I run t5), and my tongue/slipper coral is directly under the sinularia. I don't run carbon. The corals have been neighbors for about seven years now. In my case the sinularia seems to do its damage to sps when it comes into direct contact.

I have seen plenty of photos of stony dominated tanks with one or two very large leathers and the stony growth is thick and colorful.

Dr4g0nf1y · 11/25/2007, 12:45 PM

I would also like to throw in that with today's aquaculturing, a coral colony that might have originated in one location could be cultured in another and behave totally differently because of a lack of exposure to it's "natural" environment.

I am VERY interested in the book you mentioned Awestruck. And it seems readily available via online markets. I'm still finding it hard to believe only one person in this field has gone as far as documenting this research?

dkuster · 11/26/2007, 11:51 AM

I was at a talk by Anthony Calfo a few weeks ago. At one point,
he mentioned that mushrooms are particularly bad, going so far
as saying that if you have a significant number of mushrooms in
your tank there is no way you will be successful in keeping SPS
corals. (He also mentioned that palythoa polyps right up there
as well in the chemical warfare department...)

awestruck · 11/27/2007, 08:03 AM

Dr4, hi, I'm sure there are many more people in addition to Tullock who have knowledge regarding this topic, I just don't know who they are!

And yes, his book shouldn't be too hard to find and is full of wonderful, interesting information.

Certainly, Anthony Calfo is a person to take quite seriously because he has extensive knowledge about ocean animals.

The issue of mushrooms is an interesting one, and one I had never heard before. The only thing I know about shrooms is that they can be deadly and overtake other corals. So, I guess they should be added to the aggressive list. Additionally, I didn't know palys release toxins too. See, we just keep on learning...

dkuster · 11/27/2007, 11:25 AM

Yes, it was a very informative talk. It explained to me why after
lots of success with SPS corals in the 90's, mine have done
poorly in the last few years. I finally sold them. Now I find out
the two, large pieces of LR covered in palys, along with the two,
large pieces of LR (and the entire bottom of my 180) covered
in mushrooms might have had something to do with that.

Quote:

Originally posted by awestruck
Dr4, hi, I'm sure there are many more people in addition to Tullock who have knowledge regarding this topic, I just don't know who they are! And yes, his book shouldn't be too hard to find and is full of wonderful, interesting information.

Certainly, Anthony Calfo is a person to take quite seriously because he has extensive knowledge about ocean animals.

The issue of mushrooms is an interesting one, and one I had never heard before. The only thing I know about shrooms is that they can be deadly and overtake other corals. So, I guess they should be added to the aggressive list. Additionally, I didn't know palys release toxins too. See, we just keep on learning...

awestruck · 11/27/2007, 03:43 PM

dk, how disappointing for you. Mushrooms and palys are beautiful, but surely not at the cost of your sps if sps are what you love. I think it's another one of "live and learn" things...

Dr4g0nf1y · 01/26/2008, 09:18 PM

I was able to browse the book from Tullock at the local library (Barnes and Noble :-) )

The information is not quite what I had expected. Then again I didn't pour over the book for weeks. I'm still looking for a good list of "mixable" corals.

11/24/2007, 10:20 PM	#1
Dr4g0nf1y Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Shavertown, PA Posts: 692	Coral selection and alleopathy For a long time I've understood that corals will maintain a "biological" warfare against one another with the release of chemicals. The constant and continual answer to this is to make sure you design tanks with "compatible" species. However! I have not really seen a good discussion on "compatibility". All of the wonderful tanks you ever see are CRAMMED with sps corals and it stands to reason that you can do that mainly because sps seem to cause the least amount of alleopathy. However not all of us have the setup that is suitable for SPS. So for the rest of us... or mainly just my uneducated brains how about a guide, list or else wise?

11/25/2007, 09:41 AM	#2
awestruck Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,572	I think this is a GREAT question! I have a book by John H. Tullock called "Natural Reef Aquariums, Simplified Approaches to Creating Living Saltwater Microcosms". Tullock recommends that when beginning a tank, a person should decide from what part of the world he or she wants to mimic, and only buy animals that live in that part of the world. For example, Chapter Six of his book explains animals from the Florida Keys and the Caribbean Sea. Chapter Seven is about the Gulf of Mexico, Chapter Eight details the Indo-Pacific etc. I wonder if often times people have problems because of mixing animals from different parts of the world. Tullock states that introducing a foreign species into a habitat can have all kinds of problems, usually resulting in an animal dying. Many people do keep species tanks. I guess regarding compatibility, I don't have a list nor do I know where to find one. Some general things to be aware of are as follows: 1. Some soft corals, like leathers, will fight with stony corals and release toxins which can be quite harmful. So, if you are going to have both you need to run carbon so as to remove the toxins from the water. 2. Most LPS corals should not touch other corals of any kind because they have stingers and will reach out and hurt anything near it. For example, bubble corals, frogspawn, and galaxea are considered aggressive and can kill other animals. 3. Most SPS seem to live peacefully in close proximity to other SPS but you should ask someone who knows more about SPS than I. I'm not sure if this helps and you might want to try the Advanced Forum to get a better explanation! __________________ I received the best gift ever today: My son told me that he loves me. Current Tank Info: 65g. w/20g. sump; Reef Octopus Skimmer; (2) x 150w. MH and (2) x 65w. pc. sump-mixed reef

11/25/2007, 10:14 AM	#3
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	It's generally not a problem if you keep similar "types" of corals together and different kinds separated. Running carbon and a protien skimmer helps, too. I have part of my tank dominated by softies, the other part dominated by SPS. I have never noticed any problems EXCEPT for a Green Spaghetti Leather in the softie side. They are known to be pretty toxic and I have seen it cause problems with my toadstool sarcophytums when it touches them (toadstools will stay closed). On the other hand, I've found SPS will try to kill each other when different types touch or nearly touch. If one acro frag happens to fall on another, one of them ends up losing tissue. They will even send out webs of meseteries over small gaps when they sense they are getting too close to one another. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

11/27/2007, 08:03 AM	#7
awestruck Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,572	Dr4, hi, I'm sure there are many more people in addition to Tullock who have knowledge regarding this topic, I just don't know who they are! And yes, his book shouldn't be too hard to find and is full of wonderful, interesting information. Certainly, Anthony Calfo is a person to take quite seriously because he has extensive knowledge about ocean animals. The issue of mushrooms is an interesting one, and one I had never heard before. The only thing I know about shrooms is that they can be deadly and overtake other corals. So, I guess they should be added to the aggressive list. Additionally, I didn't know palys release toxins too. See, we just keep on learning... __________________ I received the best gift ever today: My son told me that he loves me. Current Tank Info: 65g. w/20g. sump; Reef Octopus Skimmer; (2) x 150w. MH and (2) x 65w. pc. sump-mixed reef

11/27/2007, 03:43 PM	#9
awestruck Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,572	dk, how disappointing for you. Mushrooms and palys are beautiful, but surely not at the cost of your sps if sps are what you love. I think it's another one of "live and learn" things... __________________ I received the best gift ever today: My son told me that he loves me. Current Tank Info: 65g. w/20g. sump; Reef Octopus Skimmer; (2) x 150w. MH and (2) x 65w. pc. sump-mixed reef

11/25/2007, 11:04 AM	#4
Potsy Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Kinnelon, NJ Posts: 1,827	I have a 38 gallon mixed reef that features a large sinularia flexibilis which is considered the most aggressive alleopathic warrior. Nonetheless, its coral tankmates steadily grow, however I have no point of reference since they have always shared space with the sinularia. My montipora grow like weeds and I've had a frogspawn grow from the size of a baseball to that of a large melon. My open brain looks better than ever (now that I run t5), and my tongue/slipper coral is directly under the sinularia. I don't run carbon. The corals have been neighbors for about seven years now. In my case the sinularia seems to do its damage to sps when it comes into direct contact. I have seen plenty of photos of stony dominated tanks with one or two very large leathers and the stony growth is thick and colorful.

11/25/2007, 12:45 PM	#5
Dr4g0nf1y Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Shavertown, PA Posts: 692	I would also like to throw in that with today's aquaculturing, a coral colony that might have originated in one location could be cultured in another and behave totally differently because of a lack of exposure to it's "natural" environment. I am VERY interested in the book you mentioned Awestruck. And it seems readily available via online markets. I'm still finding it hard to believe only one person in this field has gone as far as documenting this research?

11/26/2007, 11:51 AM	#6
dkuster Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ, USA Posts: 141	I was at a talk by Anthony Calfo a few weeks ago. At one point, he mentioned that mushrooms are particularly bad, going so far as saying that if you have a significant number of mushrooms in your tank there is no way you will be successful in keeping SPS corals. (He also mentioned that palythoa polyps right up there as well in the chemical warfare department...)

01/26/2008, 09:18 PM	#10
Dr4g0nf1y Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Shavertown, PA Posts: 692	I was able to browse the book from Tullock at the local library (Barnes and Noble :-) ) The information is not quite what I had expected. Then again I didn't pour over the book for weeks. I'm still looking for a good list of "mixable" corals.