how long do you plan for your fish to live?

[Sk8r]

Marine fish ARE long-lived.
SOme of the big guys measure their lifespan in multiple decades.

Ten years is far from an unreasonable expectation. More than a cat or dog or horse...or even elephant, for some species.

So when you set up, you're not setting up for a year...not for two, but for ten. You move, you have to make provision for moving your fish, or for finding him a home. Think about that. He'll also have grown---quite, quite large, in some species.

Think about it. Think about it when you set up, think about it when you plan the environment---does it satisfy his needs? Does it have adequate care for the water quality? Does it give him places to hide and room to move? And does 4 weeks for quarantine then sound like such a terribly long wait, measured against the safety of the other guys in the tank?

So often when you first start out, you're all afire to see your 'vision' come true, with the fish in the tank and the environment shaping up, but believe me, this is a long-term committment. When I broke down my 100g for a crosscountry move I had to find a home for the rascal blue velvet damsel [meanest, toughest fish around] at around four inches and fat as a hog on steroids. That, and all my other fish, and my inverts, and all---the blue-stripe terror is probably just as onery as ever, in her new situation. Damsels can be forever. She was 8 when I sold her with the tank.
If you're running a roach motel for fish [they check in but don't check out] ---fix what's wrong before you get another!
At a certain point, figure you will have the complement of fish that will be with you for a long, long time---and do them a favor and don't think of buying more. No more ich exposure from new arrivals, no more adjustment to new territory demands. There IS a phase of your tank after fish-acquisition. Look ahead to that stability...and if you have to move, remember RC is a really good way to find homes for other blue striped terrors.

[airinhere]

Good point!

Allow me to take it one step further.

Please expect your corals to grow larger than the small pieces you take home from the petstore. Those mushrooms and zoanthids we all started with are forever part of our tanks and eventually overgrow much of the available space in our tanks. Frogspawn and other LPS are slower growers, but some people now have huge colonies of the seemingly innocent little corals they brought home. Even the mighty SPS tanks we all drool over sprung from tiny 1 inch frags in many cases.

While some of us here are lucky enough to be able to buy mature colonies, the rest of us here must expect the frags we take home will eventually become large colonies. It is always a good idea to plan accordingly.

In the span of a year almost any coral is going to grow quite a bit. After 5 years....10....

[ricks]

Sk8r, is an out of work writer that makes to much sense... I think all his comments should be read by newcomers..

Yes, fish can and do live many years, they need good care for decades, not months or years. I have serval fish that have been with me since I set up my last 280 over 8 years ago.

Remember fish like your dogs or cats need special care to enjoy their time on this earth whether it's on land or in the sea..

Peace

[jonbry123]

You know its great to see such dedication to these animals on this site. I have basically two LFS in my area and neither one really cares about the short term or long term health at all about the animals they sell. One they bring in fish which WILL not live in an aquarium, two, newbies that go to these stores are lied too about the care requirments of the fish they are buying, I know because one of these LFS's has its own website and forum. This hobby is the fastest growing part of the pet business and no wonder but when people knew to this hobby are not informed of the long term care they should be willing to provide it is a shame to those who do not inform others of the care/size some of these animals will need. I often see obligate corallivore butterflys in this store and it just sickens me that this store trys to sell these beautiful fish that should be left on the reefs, because they are going to die. What a great asset for those of us who have found this online community to help those who are new not to make the mistakes that many of us have done. I appluad those posts above who are trying to make sure everyone understands just what it is their getting involved with. I find these animals to be extremely intelligent and it pains me to see some that I know are doomed to death becaue of a greedy LFS.

Scott

[Sk8r]

Let me translate that important point for those who don't know what an obligate corallivore butterfly fish is.
The first word means "must" the second is "eat coral." The third is self-evident.
The store mentioned is selling fish that can ONLY eat corals: no matter how you try, no matter what food you buy, they can ONLY eat corals, will not, cannot eat anything else. And what reef food is going to be live acropora [delicate stony] polyps? Can't be had.

This unfortunately happens in the trade: a collector scoops up a beautiful fish/invert that cannot be fed, and the poor creature goes through all sorts of misery of shipping and re-shipping before starving to death in somebody's tank.

There's more than one reason we say 'research before you buy.' There are things offered for sale that should not be.

[rbursek]

jonbry123,
good point, one of my LFS, salt water manager is a Pot Head, you should here some of the stuff he tells Newbies, and what is worse they run classes and he teaches them!!!! Anything to make a sale!!! I know, I dated the FW manager, plus I bought a cheap fish there just to sample there water, nitrates off the scale. Not all are like this but that is why I only buy from Dr. F&S!
Bob

[jonbry123]

Yes isn't it disheartening to those of us who truly love these animals to see them in our LFS knowing the employees are lying about their care. I've been in this hobby for more than 25 years and it sickens me to see these beautiful animals being sold often going back weeks later for something I need and their still there nearly starved to death. I like many others over the years didn't know any better and purchased some of these fish only to have them die. Thank god for the internet and this website. I tell everyone I meet to come here to learn about these animals. Granted some may have success but most don't. What I'm concerned about is the proliferation of this hobby. As some of you may be aware Hawaii has put a hold I'm to understand on the export of many of the fish that pass through there such as the yellow tang. I think this is a good thing becuase it would be a shame for this fish to disappear from the wild. A friend of mine last fall went snorkeling on the reefs in Hawaii and didn't see a single yellow tang. When you think about it all of us who go to local stores and see this fish for sale, its not just one store but thousands all over the world. We really need to support those organizations which are trying to breed fish in captivity such as ORA it think its called.

[jonbry123]

Just to add make sure you know about the animal you are buying its needs,size,etc. Anothe case in point WHY are LFS and online companies still selling Elegance corals? They do not survive. Why because people are willing to buy them when most of us who have any knowledge about them know they all die. They need to be left in the ocean.

[Sk8r]

I hear the Pacific Elegance is viable---there'll be discussion on that, but imho, it's not something I'm going to rush to get. I think they should surely be banned from collection in areas where they're having problems. I want to see this beautiful species come back from the brink. Note that some experienced hobbyists are working hard to try to figure out why they're not living in captivity: this is an effort I support.

I also wince when people say they want 'rare' fish. Think about it. There's a reason they're rare. Either they're rare in the ocean to start with, and shouldn't be taken, or they're too hazardous for divers to search out, meaning you're risking a human life, or they're rarely alive long enough to be sold, which is just tragic on its own level. None of these is a good deal.

[Agu]

I have to reinforce this,

At a certain point, figure you will have the complement of fish that will be with you for a long, long time---and do them a favor and don't think of buying more. No more ich exposure from new arrivals, no more adjustment to new territory demands.

Both my ten gallon tanks have had the same clown fish pairs for 4+ years and it's a pleasure not dealing with disease or aggression.

But there's an added benefit too. I suspect my success maintaining trouble free nano tanks is partially because of the stable bioload. Without constantly changing inhabitants the tanks are more able to reach a level of equilibrium.

[Setec]

I plan and hope for all of my fish to have long happy lives.

I can only hope for 10+ years out of some of my fish as I do not just throw stuff in my water.

Coral for me is a different story. I bought some stuff to fill in the rock while my choice pieces fill in. I wills start weeding out stuff soon.

[ITGUY]

Wow Scott,

It's simply amazing how you have taken Sk8r's thread and turned it into your own flaming rant. It's really interesting how we live in the same town, go to the same stores and I can't relate to anything you've said. If it really sickens you to see some species out of their natural enviornment, perhaps your post should be written as a generalization instead of a personal attack.
So your saying that every Butterfly in a home tank is dead fish swimming. Please take your blinders off. I'm sure that many readers have success with touchy species. Remember opinions are like tushes...everyone has one.
Bottom line everyone, reasearch before you buy.

[BLKTANG]

IBTL

[Sk8r]

Let me say that one way these unsustainable creatures end up in the LFS is that the distributor's catalog says "butterfly fish" and what comes in is not what was described or desired. Some butterflies can be sustained in a tank...but the copperband, one of the more commonly available, is a good case in point: it eats aiptasia. That's what it wants. A hungry fish is only looking for its food. Period. It is not interested in offerings of strange stuff it doesn't recognize. A fat, greedy fish will more likely experiment with strange food. So trying to convert a butterfly fish [or a mandarin] to anything else will be nearly impossible in an undersized tank that is short of the natural food. My mandy took a year and a half and the example of another fish to take to pellet food: once she got the notion that things that float can be food, she has taken to EVERYTHING that floats, eats pellet, mysis, you name it. But prior to that, it was eighteen months of Nothing But Pods. When you think you're going to change a fish's diet, be prepared for that kind of patience. And even so---to be healthy, I'd suspect a mandy needs, not pellet, not mysis, but what nature designed them to eat, in the main: copepods. It's about the nutrients. So never get a fish thinking you're going to redesign its menu instantly and forever. You want a fish, you make provision for it to get what it needs.

[HABS#1]

As for how long we expect our fish to live well with our kids and what not and our frequency of holidays and how long we are gone for I expect to get about a year out of our fish before they pass on to the big fishbowl in the sky. I never go in with high expectations for fish or anything like that this way if they outlive my expectations it is a bonus.

[192clark]

That is pathetic. I hope you get many years of bonuses...

[kathainbowen]

Originally posted by 192clark
That is pathetic. I hope you get many years of bonuses...

Pathetic as it may be, people generally far underestimate how long fish can and do live, and are pleasantly (or unpleasantly, depending on the case and the animal in question) surprised when it outlasts those expectations. Take the common betta; you'd be surprised how many people think they don't live beyond 3 months old (*when, with good care, they can easily live to be 2 to 4 years old).

The sad fact is that many people do not appropriately consider the commitment they are making purely by deciding to get a pet, even if it is something as humble as a fish. I am proud to say I worked for an excellent Petland, and I cannot tell you how many animals we took in under the Petland "Pets for A Lifetime Policy," purely because the novelty wore off. Snakes. Birds. Small mammals. Puppies. The hundreds of unplanned, unwanted litters of kittens because someone didn't spay/neuter their cats. And fish? We took in more fish than I can count. Unfortunately, not all shops are as open as we were, and many stores do not have policies for bringing back pets.

Sk8r, a great thread as always, but I really think it should be noted that pet owners should ALWAYS plans for ALL pets to either meet or exceed their expected lifespan, whether it be a fish, dog, cat, bird, hamster, snake, etc, and make appropriate provisions should the owner no longer be able to care for the animal for any reason (outgrows it's enclosure, the owner is injured for a time, etc.) It's a pet peeve of mine (*no pun intended, obviously )

[Sk8r]

The freshwater betta is an interesting case. Apparently we kill them with kindness---and maybe the sterile small habitats we bring them up in. Researchers looked into why these animals routinely die at age 2---and found fatty livers. If put on a low-fat diet, I guess, they would live much longer...the researchers claim one at age 10.

Not impossible. I have two brine shrimp that are turning 8. Yes, brine shrimp, in a sealed globe.

WHich says something about monoculture diets---like mandarins and sea horses and the other pod eaters: they may well NEED other things to be entirely healthy and in breeding condition.

One of the interesting sidebars to this thread is the fact that there is an alternative to wild-caught fish: tankbred---which I thoroughly support. The more breeding, the less catching. Clowns, cardinals, etc, tankbred succeeds very well...

With others we don't fare as well---possibly nutrition and supplementation is the way to go.

One way I try to help my fish live long and prosper is by feeding a constantly varied diet, every variety of frozen that they'll eat. I do feed [in spite of phosphates] a little fortified pellet, because it does have the vitamins, etc.. And I try to be sure that vegetarians don't fill up constantly with shrimp---which some will do, if they get the notion, to the detriment of their health, possibly. If nature designed them to eat green stuff, they need green stuff, even if they do like the 'candy' that's being dished out to others.

There are also supplements like Selcon and Zoe that can help with nutrition on a balky eater.

[ricks]

The betta is an interesting example. Our neighbors and ourselves both with young children. Bought betta's about the same time many years ago. They were feed the same kind of betta food. Our lived to be around 8 years old, their's made it a little over a year. The only difference was we used RO/Di for all water changes, they used tap water.

I wonder how many people that buy Betta's use tap water?? I also wonder if that would hold true with saltwater fish?? Sometimes I wonder if it's not more environment than what is fed? Although both are important...

[agreeive?fish]

I hope all my fish live longer and healthier than they would in the wild and die of old age plus some extra years