Yet another ro/di question - Page 2

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 09:06 PM

CB, You have the MC-10 in the stage before the SB-10; correct?

When you replace filters do you flush the stages in order so that you don't prematurely foul your DI cartridges?

frank2926 · 04/29/2008, 09:10 PM

Why would the carbon block last 4 times longer? they are both rated the same. Also you are still spending more on the sediment. the spectrapure is 26 bucks. filter guys $3. You will not see any savings on water waste or other wise. they both are rated at a 1:4 ratio .
His spectrapure math does not add up. LOL

forgetting all this stuff. You are saying you would have to own the unit for 4-5 years to recoup your money. which is my original point

I say its much longer
150 more up front to break even in 4-5 years. not much of a value IMO and thats if the Spectrapure stuff lasts 4X and 10X longer like they say. good luck thanks for the discussion

cd77 · 04/29/2008, 09:10 PM

Yes, MC-10 is before the SB-10.

I replaced the second stage (SB-10), was that wrong? If not, what would I be flushing besides the second stage, wouldn't that just mean running some water through the system until TDS is reading near zero since it's the last stage?

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 09:11 PM

I found a thread with some good RO and RO/DI reading:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=929156

I used to have a great link on this stuff but I can't find it right now (grrr).

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 09:16 PM

As you mentioned, you should be replacing the MC-10 more often than the SB-10. When you replace the MC-10 you want to remove the SB-10 and run water through the system until your output is as 0 TDS, then put the SB-10 back in. If you don't it's analogous to adding carbon without rinsing it and the SB-10 will filter out the stuff that would have been flushed. This would shorten your SB-10 for sure.

cd77 · 04/29/2008, 09:23 PM

Well, there is my mistake on the DI side of things -- glad I held on to the SB-10, looks like I just need to flush a replacement MC-10 and I should be good to go!

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 09:28 PM

Frank, The UHE is 1:2 (1 G waste, 2 filtered. The other units are 4:1 (4 G waste for 1 G filtered).

The carbon lasts longer because the pre-filter is smaller micron so it is catching more stuff so the carbon doesn't get clogged as quickly allowing it primarily filters chlorine. The smaller pre-filter allows the membrane to last longer.

You are correct; it isn't a 1 year recovery but I don't know of many things that are.

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 09:34 PM

CB, Yes, that is my understanding; in the SpectraPure system the MC-10 is the DI which will exhaust 1st because it takes the brunt of the DI task + silica removal. The SB-10 is like a second stage DI. My understanding from SpectraPure is that the SB-10 will last much longer (I think I heard 5-8x if my memory is correct but don't quite me) over the MC-10 as long as you don't allow the MC-10 to deplete and start using the SB-10 for all DI (in which case the SB-10 won't last long at all).

SpectraPure has a forum here on RC you might want to ask there to get the most definitive answer.

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 09:36 PM

In the UHE, and I suspect the same in their other units you can tell when to replace the MC-10 by meauring TDS between the MC-10 and SB-10. The UHE has an inline TDS meter between the 2; I don't know what you have.

cd77 · 04/29/2008, 09:37 PM

I found it on their website actually. The paragraph explaining this for the MAXCAP DI was confusing at least (referring to both MAXCAP DI as the entire unit and the MC-10 cartridge) -- but the last sentence along with your help made it crystal clear.

I'm asking The Filter Guys right now what their recommendations are for sediment cartridge, carbon cartridge and membrane replacement are

Thank you for your help!

cd77 · 04/29/2008, 09:41 PM

I have an inline TDS meter between the two. The MC-10 always reads higher which makes sense. My logic was simply wrong -- I was assuming that the 2nd stage cartridge (the SB-10) should be replaced because that is where the "crud" would end up. Now you've given me a better understanding as to how it works. Much appreciated

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 09:54 PM

How old is your unit; the membrane should last many years if the pre-filter and carbon have not been allowed to fail. Mostly the carbon since when it fails you get chlorine into the membrane which will quickly clog it up.

frank2926 · 04/29/2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kenargo
Frank, The UHE is 1:2 (1 G waste, 2 filtered. The other units are 4:1 (4 G waste for 1 G filtered).

The carbon lasts longer because the pre-filter is smaller micron so it is catching more stuff so the carbon doesn't get clogged as quickly allowing it primarily filters chlorine. The smaller pre-filter allows the membrane to last longer.

I was not even using the UHE if I did there would not even be a comparison. you would need 20 years to recoup the cost of that one.
I was comparing it to the cheaper max cap unit.

The carbon lasting longer is not something you can measure easily and its just theory. To many variables if your water has that much sediment than you would be changing that expensive sediment filter vs my much cheaper carbon block.

cd77 · 04/29/2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kenargo
How old is your unit; the membrane should last many years if the pre-filter and carbon have not been allowed to fail. Mostly the carbon since when it fails you get chlorine into the membrane which will quickly clog it up.

I'm positive the membrane is fine, the unit is relatively new. I'm starting to see one of the prefilter cartridges brown up a bit though, and was just wondering when the sediment/carbon filters should be changed, if they should all be changed at the same time, if there are indicators or if it just a matter of frequency.. The unit as a whole is still giving me 97-98% rejection as I mentioned earlier

Just curious.

BTW -- It would appear as though my SB-10 is shot. I put in a brand new DI stage before the SB-10 (which was only recently pulled, still wet) I'm guessing I should have replaced the old MC-10 earlier as not doing so probably nuked my SB.

kenargo · 04/29/2008, 10:47 PM

From my experience the pre-filter will change tan/brown much sooner than it needs replaced.

Pre-filters clog when they are finished so if you have a pressure gage you can tell when the pre-filter should be changed based on pressure. A drop of 15-20% from incoming pressure is when the pre-filter should be replaced. At least this is what I was told.

cd77 · 04/29/2008, 10:50 PM

Gotcha

I'll keep that in mind and will be curious to see what the filter guys suggest.

szwab · 04/30/2008, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kenargo
From my experience the pre-filter will change tan/brown much sooner than it needs replaced.

Pre-filters clog when they are finished so if you have a pressure gage you can tell when the pre-filter should be changed based on pressure. A drop of 15-20% from incoming pressure is when the pre-filter should be replaced. At least this is what I was told.

or 6 months whichever comes first.

cd77 · 04/30/2008, 07:52 AM

Six months for both the sediment and carbon cartridges? Swap them all out at the same time?

frank2926 · 04/30/2008, 08:14 AM

Yes that is what I have read as well. Bacteria can build up in the filters and or housing. You should also wash, disinfect the housings at this time as well.

cd77 · 04/30/2008, 08:53 AM

Thank you

szwab · 04/30/2008, 12:36 PM

don't forget to remove the membrane when you disinfect

cd77 · 04/30/2008, 02:05 PM

Right!

04/29/2008, 09:06 PM	#26
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	CB, You have the MC-10 in the stage before the SB-10; correct? When you replace filters do you flush the stages in order so that you don't prematurely foul your DI cartridges? __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 09:10 PM	#28
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	Yes, MC-10 is before the SB-10. I replaced the second stage (SB-10), was that wrong? If not, what would I be flushing besides the second stage, wouldn't that just mean running some water through the system until TDS is reading near zero since it's the last stage? __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)

04/29/2008, 09:11 PM	#29
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	I found a thread with some good RO and RO/DI reading: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=929156 I used to have a great link on this stuff but I can't find it right now (grrr). __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 09:16 PM	#30
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	As you mentioned, you should be replacing the MC-10 more often than the SB-10. When you replace the MC-10 you want to remove the SB-10 and run water through the system until your output is as 0 TDS, then put the SB-10 back in. If you don't it's analogous to adding carbon without rinsing it and the SB-10 will filter out the stuff that would have been flushed. This would shorten your SB-10 for sure. __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 09:23 PM	#31
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	Well, there is my mistake on the DI side of things -- glad I held on to the SB-10, looks like I just need to flush a replacement MC-10 and I should be good to go! __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)

04/29/2008, 09:10 PM	#27
frank2926 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: phila Posts: 1,645	Why would the carbon block last 4 times longer? they are both rated the same. Also you are still spending more on the sediment. the spectrapure is 26 bucks. filter guys $3. You will not see any savings on water waste or other wise. they both are rated at a 1:4 ratio . His spectrapure math does not add up. LOL forgetting all this stuff. You are saying you would have to own the unit for 4-5 years to recoup your money. which is my original point I say its much longer 150 more up front to break even in 4-5 years. not much of a value IMO and thats if the Spectrapure stuff lasts 4X and 10X longer like they say. good luck thanks for the discussion

04/29/2008, 09:28 PM	#32
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	Frank, The UHE is 1:2 (1 G waste, 2 filtered. The other units are 4:1 (4 G waste for 1 G filtered). The carbon lasts longer because the pre-filter is smaller micron so it is catching more stuff so the carbon doesn't get clogged as quickly allowing it primarily filters chlorine. The smaller pre-filter allows the membrane to last longer. You are correct; it isn't a 1 year recovery but I don't know of many things that are. __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 09:34 PM	#33
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	CB, Yes, that is my understanding; in the SpectraPure system the MC-10 is the DI which will exhaust 1st because it takes the brunt of the DI task + silica removal. The SB-10 is like a second stage DI. My understanding from SpectraPure is that the SB-10 will last much longer (I think I heard 5-8x if my memory is correct but don't quite me) over the MC-10 as long as you don't allow the MC-10 to deplete and start using the SB-10 for all DI (in which case the SB-10 won't last long at all). SpectraPure has a forum here on RC you might want to ask there to get the most definitive answer. __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 09:36 PM	#34
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	In the UHE, and I suspect the same in their other units you can tell when to replace the MC-10 by meauring TDS between the MC-10 and SB-10. The UHE has an inline TDS meter between the 2; I don't know what you have. __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 09:37 PM	#35
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	I found it on their website actually. The paragraph explaining this for the MAXCAP DI was confusing at least (referring to both MAXCAP DI as the entire unit and the MC-10 cartridge) -- but the last sentence along with your help made it crystal clear. I'm asking The Filter Guys right now what their recommendations are for sediment cartridge, carbon cartridge and membrane replacement are Thank you for your help! __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)

04/29/2008, 09:41 PM	#36
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	I have an inline TDS meter between the two. The MC-10 always reads higher which makes sense. My logic was simply wrong -- I was assuming that the 2nd stage cartridge (the SB-10) should be replaced because that is where the "crud" would end up. Now you've given me a better understanding as to how it works. Much appreciated __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)

04/29/2008, 09:54 PM	#37
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	How old is your unit; the membrane should last many years if the pre-filter and carbon have not been allowed to fail. Mostly the carbon since when it fails you get chlorine into the membrane which will quickly clog it up. __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 10:47 PM	#40
kenargo Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 8,151	From my experience the pre-filter will change tan/brown much sooner than it needs replaced. Pre-filters clog when they are finished so if you have a pressure gage you can tell when the pre-filter should be changed based on pressure. A drop of 15-20% from incoming pressure is when the pre-filter should be replaced. At least this is what I was told. __________________ Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc.

04/29/2008, 10:50 PM	#41
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	Gotcha I'll keep that in mind and will be curious to see what the filter guys suggest. __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)

04/30/2008, 07:52 AM	#43
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	Six months for both the sediment and carbon cartridges? Swap them all out at the same time? __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)

04/30/2008, 08:14 AM	#44
frank2926 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: phila Posts: 1,645	Yes that is what I have read as well. Bacteria can build up in the filters and or housing. You should also wash, disinfect the housings at this time as well.

04/30/2008, 08:53 AM	#45
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	Thank you __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)

04/30/2008, 12:36 PM	#46
szwab RC Mod Join Date: May 2002 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 15,225	don't forget to remove the membrane when you disinfect __________________ Mark "I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more cowbell" ~ Christopher Walken Current Tank Info: AGE 240 Flatback Hex

04/30/2008, 02:05 PM	#47
cd77 Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Fishers, IN, USA Posts: 1,169	Right! __________________ -Chris Current Tank Info: 70G Reef (Aug 2007), 45G Reef (Dec 2007)