sk8r has HAD it with fine sand: I'm going to change out the sandbed.

Sk8r · 07/01/2008, 10:09 AM

I got seduced by the flashy white side of the force---fine white sand, let me tell you, is a PITA. It is a PITA with a pistol shrimp in the tank (he moves it, daily). It is a PITA because it gets up and walks in high flow (I'm ideally an sps reef trying to get back into form.) It is a PITA because it drifts over and into lowlying corals (fox, plate, slipper, tongue, you name it, even gsp is losing out to it {green star polyp}) And because it is easily undermined, it causes my clam to tip over.

So I am going to do the deed. I am going to leave fine-white in the fuge, but I am going to remove the sandbed in the main tank.

How do I dare, in a functioning reef?

Well, let me explain. I have 2 things going for me that will assure my disturbing the sandbed and starting over with a brand new sandbed will not kill my tank.

1. MOST important: I have a 54g tank. I have a 20g fuge in my sump with its own 3-4" sandbed, live rock, and abundant life. When I take down the sandbed in the main tank---it will carry the tank for me. I also have about 75 lbs of live rock. The second sandbed AND the heavy use of live rock will keep my tank from cycling.
2. I have eggcrate lighting grid laid down under my live rock in the display tank. This does a number of things: notably, it prevents my live rock from becoming unstable, tumbling, and damaging the glass. So the main structure will not move, and a little fine sand left behnd will not hurt matters.

What am I choosing for sand? I'm going to get some medium-grade aragonite. Yep, bits of it are shell, which will algify and look like Ned in the First Reader, (a notably sloppy young man), but that's a small price to pay to have sand that will NOT walk over my bottom-dwelling corals and otherwise get into everything...including the clam.

How am I proposing to do it?

I have a plan.
I'm going to scoop it out of the most accessible place and wait for that cussed shrimp to push more of it out from under the rocks. I'm going to do that day by day until I have enough out---setting some of my corals aside so I can get at it better.

I have seen a cat litter scoop with a bag on one end, and holes in the scoop end. Clever idea: I'm going to put the bag on the scoop end and use the end intended for the bag to scoop with: the sand lands in a ziplock, ziplock gets sealed before lifting to surface, no scattering of sand. No plan survives contact with the enemy, but I'm going to try it.

Once I have enough out I am going to add new sand the same way---washing it in rodi to be rid of any dust, and putting in a little at a time by emptying a ziplock near the bottom. Take that, Mr. Shrimp! Move THAT stuff, if you will!

First I have to get my lfs to order the sand, and then I have to get to work.

But I have had it with the fine stuff!

D to the P · 07/01/2008, 10:19 AM

Why don't you just use a syphon to pull the sand out. It'll allow you to get into harder to reach places, and your arm doesn't have to go as far into the tank. I agree that fine sand is a PITA, and that's why I always go for something a little bigger/more stable. Hopefully all goes well with your slow sand transition. How about some before/after pics then when you're done?

NirvanaFan · 07/01/2008, 10:21 AM

You could always siphon the sand out with some 1/2" diameter tubing. I took out some of my sand this way. It made absolutely no mess in the tank, and it got me to do an extra water change.

shag26272 · 07/01/2008, 10:59 AM

yeah, I would just siphon it out when you do your water changes, just like a BB tank I think scooping it out will be much messier

ser_renely · 07/01/2008, 11:04 AM

I hate fine sand.... I just added a coarser sand over top of mine....after I took a top layer off....It was a shallow sand bed.

Things are much better now

Sk8r · 07/01/2008, 12:02 PM

Half inch hose, huh? I could get behind that. Sounds a lot easier. Didn't think a siphon could lift it, but, yes, a narrow-gauge siphon might just do it.
Just stand by with some clean salt water.
I so much appreciate the advice!

Aquarist007 · 07/01/2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sk8r
Half inch hose, huh? I could get behind that. Sounds a lot easier. Didn't think a siphon could lift it, but, yes, a narrow-gauge siphon might just do it.
Just stand by with some clean salt water.
I so much appreciate the advice!

I use a two gal shop wet vac that I bought for 25 buck--works great.

I add sand back I use a piece of 2 inch pvc pipe that I have glued a large funnel to. You can pour the sand right along the bottom of the tank and direct it well too with no sand storm

Nanz · 07/01/2008, 01:06 PM

sk8tr I feel your pain.. My pistol shrimp does the same thing.

My tank looks lopsided now because most of the sand is on the other side of the tank. The shrimp moves the sand out from under the rocks then the powerhead sweeps the sand to the other side.

Good Luck and please keep us posted.

spmedi · 07/01/2008, 01:07 PM

I also agree with ser_renely and replacing or overlaying what is left with Tropic Eden Premium Grade Reef Substrates

newb · 07/01/2008, 01:09 PM

I used a shop vac to remove a 3 or 4 year old sand bed that was four inch deep. an awsom idea i got here from rc. but imo best used for a complete tear down. btw that shop vac fills up fast and is way heavy. tryed bb for a while, didnt like the look so i added an inch back. well 2 1/2 inch later and tank set up nice i used the half inch hose and it worked perfectly with the added benifet of total control over what gets sucked up. i am sure your shrimp will apreciate that. or maby not....."and wait for that cussed shrimp"

Sk8r · 07/01/2008, 01:16 PM

LOL! Thanks for the advice! I like having a sandbed---I just didn't know when I was well off: my last one looked like crud, but worked. The pretty one is just not working.

chem-e · 07/01/2008, 01:40 PM

I know what you mean about the fine sand. I was using Southdown for a while and it would blow all over the place. I eventually switched it out to something a little coarser, but after having to move, I decided the only place for sand (in my system) is the fuge. After a move, I realized it wasn't worth the trouble. It's much easier to move a small 20 gal fuge over syphoning an entire tank.

I agree with everyone else on the syphoning. I used it to remove all my sand and the tubing was probably about 1/2". I think it would be a lot easier than scooping it out.

kevin2000 · 07/01/2008, 02:37 PM

Getting rid of the shrimp sound easier than making a substrate change. As I recall most shrimp have a pretty limited life and I would hate to make a substrate change just in time to see the shrimp go toes up.

Just a thought.

Flavum · 07/01/2008, 03:02 PM

DOWN WITH FINE SAND!!!!

Sk8r · 07/02/2008, 07:57 AM

It's not totally the shrimp's fault: the high flow moves the sand which falls into his burrow and he throws it all out his current doorway.
I would really, really advise everybody to use the coarse sand no matter what it looks like: the gaps between granules afford ample room for micro-critters and the stuff doesn't get up and walk in high flow. Right now I have dunes that travel. This morning I'm going to have to get in there and move the fox coral, which was half buried by the shrimp last night because he threw sand out of his burrow. Sigh.
If I can get some good sand this week I know what I'm doing on the 4th.

Michael · 07/02/2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kevin2000
Getting rid of the shrimp sound easier than making a substrate change. As I recall most shrimp have a pretty limited life and I would hate to make a substrate change just in time to see the shrimp go toes up.

Just a thought.

yep i agree get rid of the shrimp

Sk8r · 07/02/2008, 10:33 AM

awww....we LOVES the beggar. He and the watchman are an entertaining pair. I'm going to try to make this work. I don't think he likes the infalling sand much better than I do.

sandsurfsd · 07/02/2008, 03:09 PM

I have sugar fine sand and haven't really had any problems with it..I have two vortechs in my tank..and of course when I first set it up the sand shifted around,,but now it has all seemed to settle

ser_renely · 07/03/2008, 10:11 AM

mine finally settled....when it reached the bottom of my tank

Allanira · 07/03/2008, 10:42 AM

I have sand that likes to go walking also. I think it is a finer grade than what your looking for. I have a Corys wrasse that likes to go around blowing it off the rocks lol. Its a big mess I will tell you. Good luck and keep the shrimp.

tylorarm · 07/03/2008, 10:56 AM

I used aqua medic hydrocarbonate, calcium reactor media, for substrate. Adds calcium to the water as slowly dissolves. The medium grade is 3-5mm. Fairly white, doesn't blow around as much. I read about it here on RC as an alternative to sand. I bought it in big pail, was much cheaper per unit than small pail.

frank2926 · 07/03/2008, 07:33 PM

I used arm media mixed in with some larger grain sand.

07/01/2008, 10:09 AM	#1
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	sk8r has HAD it with fine sand: I'm going to change out the sandbed. I got seduced by the flashy white side of the force---fine white sand, let me tell you, is a PITA. It is a PITA with a pistol shrimp in the tank (he moves it, daily). It is a PITA because it gets up and walks in high flow (I'm ideally an sps reef trying to get back into form.) It is a PITA because it drifts over and into lowlying corals (fox, plate, slipper, tongue, you name it, even gsp is losing out to it {green star polyp}) And because it is easily undermined, it causes my clam to tip over. So I am going to do the deed. I am going to leave fine-white in the fuge, but I am going to remove the sandbed in the main tank. How do I dare, in a functioning reef? Well, let me explain. I have 2 things going for me that will assure my disturbing the sandbed and starting over with a brand new sandbed will not kill my tank. 1. MOST important: I have a 54g tank. I have a 20g fuge in my sump with its own 3-4" sandbed, live rock, and abundant life. When I take down the sandbed in the main tank---it will carry the tank for me. I also have about 75 lbs of live rock. The second sandbed AND the heavy use of live rock will keep my tank from cycling. 2. I have eggcrate lighting grid laid down under my live rock in the display tank. This does a number of things: notably, it prevents my live rock from becoming unstable, tumbling, and damaging the glass. So the main structure will not move, and a little fine sand left behnd will not hurt matters. What am I choosing for sand? I'm going to get some medium-grade aragonite. Yep, bits of it are shell, which will algify and look like Ned in the First Reader, (a notably sloppy young man), but that's a small price to pay to have sand that will NOT walk over my bottom-dwelling corals and otherwise get into everything...including the clam. How am I proposing to do it? I have a plan. I'm going to scoop it out of the most accessible place and wait for that cussed shrimp to push more of it out from under the rocks. I'm going to do that day by day until I have enough out---setting some of my corals aside so I can get at it better. I have seen a cat litter scoop with a bag on one end, and holes in the scoop end. Clever idea: I'm going to put the bag on the scoop end and use the end intended for the bag to scoop with: the sand lands in a ziplock, ziplock gets sealed before lifting to surface, no scattering of sand. No plan survives contact with the enemy, but I'm going to try it. Once I have enough out I am going to add new sand the same way---washing it in rodi to be rid of any dust, and putting in a little at a time by emptying a ziplock near the bottom. Take that, Mr. Shrimp! Move THAT stuff, if you will! First I have to get my lfs to order the sand, and then I have to get to work. But I have had it with the fine stuff! __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/01/2008, 10:19 AM	#2
D to the P Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Amishville, USA Posts: 2,047	Why don't you just use a syphon to pull the sand out. It'll allow you to get into harder to reach places, and your arm doesn't have to go as far into the tank. I agree that fine sand is a PITA, and that's why I always go for something a little bigger/more stable. Hopefully all goes well with your slow sand transition. How about some before/after pics then when you're done? __________________ Nature V.S. Nurture: Nature Always Wins. Current Tank Info: 12 gallon Aquapod reef with LED's, multiple nano's at work.

07/01/2008, 10:59 AM	#4
shag26272 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 3,088	yeah, I would just siphon it out when you do your water changes, just like a BB tank I think scooping it out will be much messier __________________ .

07/01/2008, 11:04 AM	#5
ser_renely Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,820	I hate fine sand.... I just added a coarser sand over top of mine....after I took a top layer off....It was a shallow sand bed. Things are much better now __________________ RIP: Osc. Clown - Ammonia, YW GobY - overflow, YW Goby - Pistol shrimp, Firefish - acclimation. 5 Fire fish - pistol shrimp, Mandarin - Pistol shrimp!!!!! Current Tank Info: 60g Cube, 15g sump/fuge,Tunze 9010 skimmer, Reefbreeders Photon 16" - 2 Osc. Clowns,2 Lyretail Anthias, Blue Chromis, mp20, mp10....another DAMN pistol shrimp!

07/01/2008, 12:02 PM	#6
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Half inch hose, huh? I could get behind that. Sounds a lot easier. Didn't think a siphon could lift it, but, yes, a narrow-gauge siphon might just do it. Just stand by with some clean salt water. I so much appreciate the advice! __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/01/2008, 10:21 AM	#3
NirvanaFan Reef Ninja Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 4,280	You could always siphon the sand out with some 1/2" diameter tubing. I took out some of my sand this way. It made absolutely no mess in the tank, and it got me to do an extra water change.

07/01/2008, 01:06 PM	#8
Nanz Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,389	sk8tr I feel your pain.. My pistol shrimp does the same thing. My tank looks lopsided now because most of the sand is on the other side of the tank. The shrimp moves the sand out from under the rocks then the powerhead sweeps the sand to the other side. Good Luck and please keep us posted. __________________ S.G. = 1.025, Temp = 78.5, pH = 8.00 Ca = 550 ppm, Alk = 176 ppm (9.85 dKH), Mg = 1300 ppm NO3 = 0.97 ppm, PO4 = 0.07 ppm Nuvo 30, Razor Nano LED, Tunze ATO, Tunze 9004 skimmer, Vortec mp10,

07/01/2008, 01:07 PM	#9
spmedi Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 285	I also agree with ser_renely and replacing or overlaying what is left with Tropic Eden Premium Grade Reef Substrates

07/01/2008, 01:09 PM	#10
newb Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ca Posts: 123	I used a shop vac to remove a 3 or 4 year old sand bed that was four inch deep. an awsom idea i got here from rc. but imo best used for a complete tear down. btw that shop vac fills up fast and is way heavy. tryed bb for a while, didnt like the look so i added an inch back. well 2 1/2 inch later and tank set up nice i used the half inch hose and it worked perfectly with the added benifet of total control over what gets sucked up. i am sure your shrimp will apreciate that. or maby not....."and wait for that cussed shrimp"

07/01/2008, 01:16 PM	#11
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	LOL! Thanks for the advice! I like having a sandbed---I just didn't know when I was well off: my last one looked like crud, but worked. The pretty one is just not working. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/01/2008, 01:40 PM	#12
chem-e Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,350	I know what you mean about the fine sand. I was using Southdown for a while and it would blow all over the place. I eventually switched it out to something a little coarser, but after having to move, I decided the only place for sand (in my system) is the fuge. After a move, I realized it wasn't worth the trouble. It's much easier to move a small 20 gal fuge over syphoning an entire tank. I agree with everyone else on the syphoning. I used it to remove all my sand and the tubing was probably about 1/2". I think it would be a lot easier than scooping it out. __________________ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." ~ Benjamin Franklin Current Tank Info: Elos [~] 70 powered by Profilux

07/01/2008, 02:37 PM	#13
kevin2000 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,805	Getting rid of the shrimp sound easier than making a substrate change. As I recall most shrimp have a pretty limited life and I would hate to make a substrate change just in time to see the shrimp go toes up. Just a thought.

07/01/2008, 03:02 PM	#14
Flavum Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Knox, TN Posts: 728	DOWN WITH FINE SAND!!!! __________________ Good guys, bad guys Which is which? The white collar worker Or the digger of the ditch? Man, who's to say who's the better man? I'm doing the very best I can Best I can - Minor Threat

07/02/2008, 07:57 AM	#15
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	It's not totally the shrimp's fault: the high flow moves the sand which falls into his burrow and he throws it all out his current doorway. I would really, really advise everybody to use the coarse sand no matter what it looks like: the gaps between granules afford ample room for micro-critters and the stuff doesn't get up and walk in high flow. Right now I have dunes that travel. This morning I'm going to have to get in there and move the fox coral, which was half buried by the shrimp last night because he threw sand out of his burrow. Sigh. If I can get some good sand this week I know what I'm doing on the 4th. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/02/2008, 10:33 AM	#17
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	awww....we LOVES the beggar. He and the watchman are an entertaining pair. I'm going to try to make this work. I don't think he likes the infalling sand much better than I do. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/02/2008, 03:09 PM	#18
sandsurfsd Moved On Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 41	I have sugar fine sand and haven't really had any problems with it..I have two vortechs in my tank..and of course when I first set it up the sand shifted around,,but now it has all seemed to settle

07/03/2008, 10:11 AM	#19
ser_renely Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,820	mine finally settled....when it reached the bottom of my tank __________________ RIP: Osc. Clown - Ammonia, YW GobY - overflow, YW Goby - Pistol shrimp, Firefish - acclimation. 5 Fire fish - pistol shrimp, Mandarin - Pistol shrimp!!!!! Current Tank Info: 60g Cube, 15g sump/fuge,Tunze 9010 skimmer, Reefbreeders Photon 16" - 2 Osc. Clowns,2 Lyretail Anthias, Blue Chromis, mp20, mp10....another DAMN pistol shrimp!

07/03/2008, 10:42 AM	#20
Allanira Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New Mexico Posts: 293	I have sand that likes to go walking also. I think it is a finer grade than what your looking for. I have a Corys wrasse that likes to go around blowing it off the rocks lol. Its a big mess I will tell you. Good luck and keep the shrimp. __________________ "Why me?" Because I think God has a sense of humor. Current Tank Info: 55 gal fresh, and 55 gal salt with a 55 gallon sump 75 lb LR, live sand, 2 koralia 3s, 2 koralia 2s, 2 maroon clown, 1 green chromis, 1 firefish, 1 starry blenny, 2 red legged hermit crabs, 2 turbo snails, 1 cleaner shrimp

07/03/2008, 10:56 AM	#21
tylorarm Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 759	I used aqua medic hydrocarbonate, calcium reactor media, for substrate. Adds calcium to the water as slowly dissolves. The medium grade is 3-5mm. Fairly white, doesn't blow around as much. I read about it here on RC as an alternative to sand. I bought it in big pail, was much cheaper per unit than small pail.

07/03/2008, 07:33 PM	#22
frank2926 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: phila Posts: 1,645	I used arm media mixed in with some larger grain sand.