Taking out all live rock of established system bad?

Ding2daDong · 08/14/2008, 09:34 PM

I am in the process of downsizing from a 75g to a 34g solana and someone is coming in a couple days to buy all my corals and liverock. The problem is the system is plumbed to two frag tanks and I am still going to keep all the fish anf coral from frag tanks until I can sell them off in the next few weeks.

I just want to make sure that taking out all the liverock will not cause some type of problem.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Matthew

seapug · 08/14/2008, 10:00 PM

You will probably pull the rug out from under the entire biological filtration capacity of the system.

Ding2daDong · 08/14/2008, 10:08 PM

Do you think I should go get some cured liverock and put it in the sump?

I will be replacing the displaced amount of water from the liverock with fresh natural sea water. I thought it would be okay.

Let me know because this is going to happen soon and I don't want to lose the fish/coral from doing this.

Thanks

-Matthew

kfisc · 08/14/2008, 10:20 PM

The way you're planning it now, I'd be afraid of a major chemistry shift that would endanger the fish/coral- any way you can introduce them to a friend's tank or let a trusted LFS hold them?

LobsterOfJustice · 08/14/2008, 10:24 PM

Coral alone in the system would likely be fine - but if you have anything in the tank you are going to be feeding (INPUT of nutrients), you will need bacterial filtration (live rock) to process the waste.

What's the bioload going to be like (what fish, how much feeding)?

Ding2daDong · 08/14/2008, 10:26 PM

hmmm... I am getting more concerned about this now. I honestly didn't think much would happen since it is about 40 frags and 5 fish.

Should I setup a rubbermiad container with the fish and coral and add some cured liverock before I sell all the liverock and coral?

Thanks for the help guys.

-Matthew

Ding2daDong · 08/14/2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LobsterOfJustice
Coral alone in the system would likely be fine - but if you have anything in the tank you are going to be feeding (INPUT of nutrients), you will need bacterial filtration (live rock) to process the waste.

What's the bioload going to be like (what fish, how much feeding)?

The bio load will be a hippo tang, yellow tang, scopis tang, midas blenny, goby, 3 chromis and a pair of clown fish. But wouldn't this mean that since their isn't any liverock in the display that the fish poo would get sweept up much easier to the skimmer? It will have no place to settle... right..?

Also within a couple days of the liverock/coral selling I will be selling most of the fish except for the clownfish.

Thanks again

-Matthew

LobsterOfJustice · 08/14/2008, 10:32 PM

I would just keep a few pieces of rock...

Ding2daDong · 08/14/2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LobsterOfJustice
I would just keep a few pieces of rock...

I can't though because the person is buying the rock with the corals on them. Should I go get some cured liverock for the time being?

I would think that without the liverock and no dead spots of flow that everything would get swept up and taken out by either the skimmer or filter socks.

Thanks for the help

-Matthew

grimmjohn · 08/14/2008, 10:51 PM

If you have substrate in your frag tanks I wouldn't worry about. Watch your ammonia/trites/trates, just feed 3 or 4 times for the next two weeks, and you should be fine. If you are really paranoid just go to a LFS, grab a few pounds of some rubble rock for $10 and you are done. Or find a friend/lfs that has some used filter floss and put it in where some water can flow through it. or ask a friend/lfs if you can put your fish in a sump or something.

Jflip2002 · 08/14/2008, 10:51 PM

Go get some cured rock, you have to have some rock for the most part. If no rock was a great idea, dont you think the BB tank owners would get rid of their rocks as well? lol.

grimmjohn · 08/14/2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jflip2002
you have to have some bacteria for the most part.

fixed

Ding2daDong · 08/14/2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jflip2002
Go get some cured rock, you have to have some rock for the most part. If no rock was a great idea, dont you think the BB tank owners would get rid of their rocks as well? lol.

I know people with BB tanks with only the rock on the bottom of the corals. The only thing I see wrong is that the rocks will be gone so no more biological filtration but since my skimmer is working great that it will have to take on more responsibility on the mechanical side.

I think I will be fine but I am just going to really watch the tank and feed less. Maybe do a water change every couple days just in case.

Any other help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

-Matthew

Slakker · 08/14/2008, 11:52 PM

Three big, active fish, and you're removing the entirety of your biological filtration system?

Fish gotta go before the rock, my friend, or you'll likely run into some ugly problems.

scott058 · 08/14/2008, 11:57 PM

Quote:

[i]
Three big, active fish, and you're removing the entirety of your biological filtration system?

Fish gotta go before the rock, my friend, or you'll likely run into some ugly problems.

I'm with Slakker

madadi · 08/15/2008, 12:13 AM

definitely DON'T get cured live rock to replace your established rock. your asking for trouble. no matter how cured it is, there will always be some kind of cycle. with no rock in your system and an established bio load, your risking everything. if u can KEEP some of the rock you have now that is fine.

Ding2daDong · 08/15/2008, 12:23 AM

I guess I will take out the fish and put them in a rubbermaid container until I sell off the left over coral in the frag tank.

Anyone see anything wrong with this idea?

Thanks for the help

-Matthew

ahullsb · 08/15/2008, 01:07 AM

That is probably your best bet. Only problem I see is that you are putting a lot of fish in a brand new rubbermaid container. Even using some of your tank water you will likely have ammonia issues. Be prepared to do very frequent water changes. Keep a close eye on the water parameters in general.

LobsterOfJustice · 08/15/2008, 08:06 AM

That still doesnt solve the problem, unless there is an established biological filter (live rock) in the rubbermaid.

Skimmers will remove some organics, and filtersocks will remove particulates, but ammonia will be directly in the water with no bacteria to break it down. What you are essentially doing is akin to setting up a new tank with no LR and putting all those fish immediately in.

Ding2daDong · 08/15/2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LobsterOfJustice
That still doesnt solve the problem, unless there is an established biological filter (live rock) in the rubbermaid.

Skimmers will remove some organics, and filtersocks will remove particulates, but ammonia will be directly in the water with no bacteria to break it down. What you are essentially doing is akin to setting up a new tank with no LR and putting all those fish immediately in.

I appreciate the help but you don't need biological filtration by means of liverock for fish. People start up quarantine tanks overnight with saltwater and a hang over the back filter.

-Matthew

Slakker · 08/15/2008, 09:59 AM

Yes, and they do daily, sometimes twice daily, water changes.

And tons of people use sponge filters that have been sitting in their sump populating with bacteria.

SHOmuchFUN · 08/15/2008, 10:32 AM

Bacteria will still exist in the water column, no?
I don't foresee a huge issue. Bacteria exists on all forms of the system, not just the pores of rock....

If you're concerned, throw some bioballs, bio-stars, a sponge, or whatever in the sump until your stuff is sold.

LobsterOfJustice · 08/15/2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ding2daDong
I appreciate the help but you don't need biological filtration by means of liverock for fish. People start up quarantine tanks overnight with saltwater and a hang over the back filter.

-Matthew

Yeah, but the HOB filter has been running on the main tank to establish bacterial populations.

Quote:

Bacteria will still exist in the water column, no?
I don't foresee a huge issue. Bacteria exists on all forms of the system, not just the pores of rock....

If you're concerned, throw some bioballs, bio-stars, a sponge, or whatever in the sump until your stuff is sold.

I doubt there is a lot in the water column. But yes, there will be some on all wet surfaces of the tank (walls, plumbing, etc). But I doubt enough for 3 tangs, blenny, goby, 2 clowns and 3 chromis. Adding other biological medium is a good option (the bioballs, stars, sponge, ceramic rings, etc) but they don't just automatically "work". It takes time for bacterial populations to develop. This is why you dont add all your fish at once.

Ding2daDong · 08/15/2008, 10:59 AM

Okay thanks for the help guys. I am probably going to do the rubbermaid container idea. In quarantine tanks most people dose copper which will kill any biological system previously setup. That is why I think they will be fine in the rubbermaid container for a short time with steady monitoring of nitrates and ammonia.

Any other ideas or recommendations?

Thanks fr the help

-Matthew

08/14/2008, 09:34 PM	#1
Ding2daDong Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,723	Taking out all live rock of established system bad? I am in the process of downsizing from a 75g to a 34g solana and someone is coming in a couple days to buy all my corals and liverock. The problem is the system is plumbed to two frag tanks and I am still going to keep all the fish anf coral from frag tanks until I can sell them off in the next few weeks. I just want to make sure that taking out all the liverock will not cause some type of problem. Any help would be greatly appreciated. -Matthew Last edited by Ding2daDong; 08/14/2008 at 09:51 PM.

08/14/2008, 10:00 PM	#2
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	You will probably pull the rug out from under the entire biological filtration capacity of the system. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

08/14/2008, 10:24 PM	#5
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	Coral alone in the system would likely be fine - but if you have anything in the tank you are going to be feeding (INPUT of nutrients), you will need bacterial filtration (live rock) to process the waste. What's the bioload going to be like (what fish, how much feeding)? __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

08/14/2008, 10:32 PM	#8
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	I would just keep a few pieces of rock... __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

08/14/2008, 10:51 PM	#10
grimmjohn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,388	If you have substrate in your frag tanks I wouldn't worry about. Watch your ammonia/trites/trates, just feed 3 or 4 times for the next two weeks, and you should be fine. If you are really paranoid just go to a LFS, grab a few pounds of some rubble rock for $10 and you are done. Or find a friend/lfs that has some used filter floss and put it in where some water can flow through it. or ask a friend/lfs if you can put your fish in a sump or something. __________________ They always come back Oh Lord...I'm not ready for this sort of thing.

08/14/2008, 10:08 PM	#3
Ding2daDong Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,723	Do you think I should go get some cured liverock and put it in the sump? I will be replacing the displaced amount of water from the liverock with fresh natural sea water. I thought it would be okay. Let me know because this is going to happen soon and I don't want to lose the fish/coral from doing this. Thanks -Matthew

08/14/2008, 10:20 PM	#4
kfisc Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,020	The way you're planning it now, I'd be afraid of a major chemistry shift that would endanger the fish/coral- any way you can introduce them to a friend's tank or let a trusted LFS hold them?

08/14/2008, 10:26 PM	#6
Ding2daDong Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,723	hmmm... I am getting more concerned about this now. I honestly didn't think much would happen since it is about 40 frags and 5 fish. Should I setup a rubbermiad container with the fish and coral and add some cured liverock before I sell all the liverock and coral? Thanks for the help guys. -Matthew

08/14/2008, 10:51 PM	#11
Jflip2002 Eagles & Tigers Fan Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 3,543	Go get some cured rock, you have to have some rock for the most part. If no rock was a great idea, dont you think the BB tank owners would get rid of their rocks as well? lol. __________________ I hate cheap powerheads. Current Tank Info: 40g Breeder

08/14/2008, 11:52 PM	#14
Slakker Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Southeastern Wisconsin Posts: 4,521	Three big, active fish, and you're removing the entirety of your biological filtration system? Fish gotta go before the rock, my friend, or you'll likely run into some ugly problems. __________________ -Tyler Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house. Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics

08/15/2008, 12:13 AM	#16
madadi ReefOG Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Morton grove, IL Posts: 3,976	definitely DON'T get cured live rock to replace your established rock. your asking for trouble. no matter how cured it is, there will always be some kind of cycle. with no rock in your system and an established bio load, your risking everything. if u can KEEP some of the rock you have now that is fine. __________________ -~adrian~- LETS TRADE YUMAS Current Tank Info: Glass box.

08/15/2008, 12:23 AM	#17
Ding2daDong Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,723	I guess I will take out the fish and put them in a rubbermaid container until I sell off the left over coral in the frag tank. Anyone see anything wrong with this idea? Thanks for the help -Matthew

08/15/2008, 01:07 AM	#18
ahullsb Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: sacramento, ca Posts: 2,729	That is probably your best bet. Only problem I see is that you are putting a lot of fish in a brand new rubbermaid container. Even using some of your tank water you will likely have ammonia issues. Be prepared to do very frequent water changes. Keep a close eye on the water parameters in general. __________________ Andy Sacramento, CA Current Tank Info: 55 gallon reef w/20 gallon sump/ER135/ 75 pounds of live rock, 4 in sandbed, 2 b&w ocellaris clowns, yellow watchman/pistol, rosy scaled wrasse, Mystery wrasse, Copperbanded Butterfly, Lighting 48" outer orbit 2 150 mh/ 4 t5 actinics

08/15/2008, 08:06 AM	#19
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	That still doesnt solve the problem, unless there is an established biological filter (live rock) in the rubbermaid. Skimmers will remove some organics, and filtersocks will remove particulates, but ammonia will be directly in the water with no bacteria to break it down. What you are essentially doing is akin to setting up a new tank with no LR and putting all those fish immediately in. __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

08/15/2008, 09:59 AM	#21
Slakker Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Southeastern Wisconsin Posts: 4,521	Yes, and they do daily, sometimes twice daily, water changes. And tons of people use sponge filters that have been sitting in their sump populating with bacteria. __________________ -Tyler Oceanic 58RR display/20H sump/fuge thread...follow the red house. Current Tank Info: Oceanic 58g, 20H sump, AquaC EV-150, 175w Hamilton 14k + 2x39w T5HO Actinics

08/15/2008, 10:32 AM	#22
SHOmuchFUN Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Vermont Posts: 4,461	Bacteria will still exist in the water column, no? I don't foresee a huge issue. Bacteria exists on all forms of the system, not just the pores of rock.... If you're concerned, throw some bioballs, bio-stars, a sponge, or whatever in the sump until your stuff is sold. __________________ Erik Engstrom President, Vermont Marine Aquarists. Current Tank Info: Custom 180gal, 6x80w ATI T-5s, (2) Tunze 6025, Vortec MP40w, MSX200 w/ red demon, controlled by AcJR.

08/15/2008, 10:59 AM	#24
Ding2daDong Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 2,723	Okay thanks for the help guys. I am probably going to do the rubbermaid container idea. In quarantine tanks most people dose copper which will kill any biological system previously setup. That is why I think they will be fine in the rubbermaid container for a short time with steady monitoring of nitrates and ammonia. Any other ideas or recommendations? Thanks fr the help -Matthew