Do I need a Calcium Reactor if I use Miracle Mud?

Portsmouth Reef · 11/13/2008, 09:22 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am looking at using Miracle Mud in my new SPS setup, but not sure if I will need to dose Calcium, as I will be building up from Frags. My local LFS has been running a 300 gallon for 6 months not added any Calcium and is running at 450, and has a few LPS but no Acros or Montis. Does anybody run ans SPS tank with Miracle Mud and no Calcium Reactor ?

cbrguy · 11/13/2008, 09:30 AM

In short yes. Maybe when you just have small frags you can get away with water changes to boost Ca and with 300g you have more room for error, but overtime the demand will be far too great for Water changes only.

lockekeyy · 11/13/2008, 09:37 AM

no, miracle mud will need cut it... I agree with cbrguy, if you have a small amount of sps, then water changes are enough. But once you get more sps, your calcium needs will exceed the amount replenished by the water changes.

Whys · 11/13/2008, 09:47 AM

I'm unconvinced that miracle mud does anything at all. In all my research, trying to find one indisputable case of its clear benefit is like trying to find a UFO photo that isn't blurry. Generally, when something is such a good idea, everyone raves about it. Not the case with miracle mud. But it is up to you to decide for yourself what is what.

Good luck with the project.

WaterKeeper · 11/13/2008, 10:38 AM

Even a DSB of pure aragonite doesn't replace enough calcium in a high demand tank to meet its needs. The three ways to supplement it are

Supplements such as Randy's two part
Adding KW to the topoff water
Using a calcium carbonate reactor

Even the organic acids that form in a DSB don't appear to dissolve that much and mud is not even aragonite. Consign yourself to the fact that Miracles are hard to come by, at least in reefing.

Portsmouth Reef · 11/13/2008, 11:27 AM

Thanks for the feedback guys. I am more inclined to stick with DSB
Rowaphos and a BIG skimmer plus the Calcium Reactor. Seems saving money on equipment may be false economy. I didn't like the suggestion in the MM advert that you should only have a 1" sandbed in the main tank. I don't like the idea of having to replace half of the MM mud either. This will also influence how I build my sump.

WaterKeeper · 11/13/2008, 11:41 AM

Do remember that a DSB will require at least yearly reseeding with some fresh LS. It will not require nearly as much as the mud. You do this to replenish the sandbed dweller lost to predation. If you have a refugium that frequency can be reduced.

crvz · 11/13/2008, 12:11 PM

I've found expecting a lot out of any sand bed (regardless of it's depth or media) is perpetually frustrating as well, I've had the most success after going bare-bottom and running a high flow tank. But that's just my experience, you can do well with DSBs as many have proven.

jprince58 · 11/13/2008, 12:32 PM

I've read about some folks having great success miracle mud, but have not experience myself. Being somewhat of a skeptic, I'm always wary of anything claiming results too good to be true, and mentally file them away as "snake oil." Same goes for the sludge GARF sells as "GARF Grunge." I'm certain both products have their place and provide a number of essential goodies to the tank, but I'd tend to believe their over-the-top claims are a little, well, over-the-top.

WaterKeeper · 11/13/2008, 12:37 PM

Jeff

It's like the rumor "just ask Waterkeeper, he knows everything". Sadly that is just that, a rumor, and not fact. If it was true, I'd be buying up auto stock like crazy right now.

poolkeeper1 · 11/13/2008, 01:04 PM

I thought Miracle Mud was supposed to replace trace elements not add calcium! Correct me if I'm wrong. I have tried it when I
set up my current 185, added it to my sump as directed but did
not see any benifet and never added any more. I think if you
run a good skimmer it just pulls MM out of the water. JMO. The
reason I say that is because there is no trace of it left in my sump.

_E_ · 11/13/2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
It's like the rumor "just ask Waterkeeper, he knows everything". Sadly that is just that, a rumor, and not fact.

What! Say it's not true Tom

WaterKeeper · 11/13/2008, 02:22 PM

That's because I've had Mud in by diet for years. It contains "63 essential elements" like silver, chrome and cadmium.

11/13/2008, 09:22 AM	#1
Portsmouth Reef Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Portsmouth,England Posts: 126	Do I need a Calcium Reactor if I use Miracle Mud? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am looking at using Miracle Mud in my new SPS setup, but not sure if I will need to dose Calcium, as I will be building up from Frags. My local LFS has been running a 300 gallon for 6 months not added any Calcium and is running at 450, and has a few LPS but no Acros or Montis. Does anybody run ans SPS tank with Miracle Mud and no Calcium Reactor ?

11/13/2008, 09:37 AM	#3
lockekeyy Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 1,027	no, miracle mud will need cut it... I agree with cbrguy, if you have a small amount of sps, then water changes are enough. But once you get more sps, your calcium needs will exceed the amount replenished by the water changes. __________________ I attribute the little I know to my not having been ashamed to ask for information - John Locke

11/13/2008, 10:38 AM	#5
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Even a DSB of pure aragonite doesn't replace enough calcium in a high demand tank to meet its needs. The three ways to supplement it are Supplements such as Randy's two part Adding KW to the topoff water Using a calcium carbonate reactor Even the organic acids that form in a DSB don't appear to dissolve that much and mud is not even aragonite. Consign yourself to the fact that Miracles are hard to come by, at least in reefing. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

11/13/2008, 11:41 AM	#7
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Do remember that a DSB will require at least yearly reseeding with some fresh LS. It will not require nearly as much as the mud. You do this to replenish the sandbed dweller lost to predation. If you have a refugium that frequency can be reduced. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

11/13/2008, 12:11 PM	#8
crvz Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: houstonia Posts: 7,989	I've found expecting a lot out of any sand bed (regardless of it's depth or media) is perpetually frustrating as well, I've had the most success after going bare-bottom and running a high flow tank. But that's just my experience, you can do well with DSBs as many have proven. __________________ -Chris- You don't win friends with salad. "Look! They're trying to learn for free!" ... "Use your phony guns as clubs!" Current Tank Info: rectangluar? wet?

11/13/2008, 09:30 AM	#2
cbrguy Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 493	In short yes. Maybe when you just have small frags you can get away with water changes to boost Ca and with 300g you have more room for error, but overtime the demand will be far too great for Water changes only.

11/13/2008, 09:47 AM	#4
Whys Moved On Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,263	I'm unconvinced that miracle mud does anything at all. In all my research, trying to find one indisputable case of its clear benefit is like trying to find a UFO photo that isn't blurry. Generally, when something is such a good idea, everyone raves about it. Not the case with miracle mud. But it is up to you to decide for yourself what is what. Good luck with the project.

11/13/2008, 11:27 AM	#6
Portsmouth Reef Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Portsmouth,England Posts: 126	Thanks for the feedback guys. I am more inclined to stick with DSB Rowaphos and a BIG skimmer plus the Calcium Reactor. Seems saving money on equipment may be false economy. I didn't like the suggestion in the MM advert that you should only have a 1" sandbed in the main tank. I don't like the idea of having to replace half of the MM mud either. This will also influence how I build my sump.

11/13/2008, 12:32 PM	#9
jprince58 Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Jenks, OK, USA Posts: 751	I've read about some folks having great success miracle mud, but have not experience myself. Being somewhat of a skeptic, I'm always wary of anything claiming results too good to be true, and mentally file them away as "snake oil." Same goes for the sludge GARF sells as "GARF Grunge." I'm certain both products have their place and provide a number of essential goodies to the tank, but I'd tend to believe their over-the-top claims are a little, well, over-the-top. __________________ 'I refuse to discount another man's opinion -- until he opens his mouth to speak.' -- Anonymous Jeff Prince Current Tank Info: 72g bow mixed reef; 40g frag

11/13/2008, 12:37 PM	#10
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Jeff It's like the rumor "just ask Waterkeeper, he knows everything". Sadly that is just that, a rumor, and not fact. If it was true, I'd be buying up auto stock like crazy right now. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

11/13/2008, 01:04 PM	#11
poolkeeper1 Moved On Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Spring Hill, TN Posts: 4,674	I thought Miracle Mud was supposed to replace trace elements not add calcium! Correct me if I'm wrong. I have tried it when I set up my current 185, added it to my sump as directed but did not see any benifet and never added any more. I think if you run a good skimmer it just pulls MM out of the water. JMO. The reason I say that is because there is no trace of it left in my sump.

11/13/2008, 02:22 PM	#13
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	That's because I've had Mud in by diet for years. It contains "63 essential elements" like silver, chrome and cadmium. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29