Am I Battling Ich The Right Way?

[kernyboy]

Hey Guys! So, My tang has/had ich. Some of the white spots fell off. I'm assuming they now live in my display tank and just WAITING to pounce on my other fish.

I had an old 10 gallon tank laying around...so I decided to convert that to a QT tank. I got my salinity to 1.020. Went to my LFS, bought some copper solution Added it to the tank (1 drop per gallon)...raised the temperature to 82 degrees.

THEN..I netted all my fish , save my 6 line wrasse and my watchman goby (this took about 4 hours. The buggers are fast!).

So now in my 10 gallon QT tank i have 4 chromis, two clown fish, and Yellow Tang.

For filtration I have an old hang on back filter. I took out the carbon as I hear this will absorb the copper. I also read that the ammonia will build quickly with that many fish in a small tank. So I plan on doing 50% water changes every other day.

Is there anything else I'm missing? Can I add live rock to the tank for aditional fitration? The tank is bare bottom, has nothing in it. I know fish like to hide when they sleep etc. Is there anything I can add in there?

How should I be feeding them? I also got some anti biotic, as I hear copper makes the fish immune systems weaker. Can i add this in WITH the copper? Or wait?

The guy at the LFS said I can keep the fish in with the copper for 2weeks and that should be fine. Should I wait longer? Any literature on this guys? Thanks

[Chris&Mel]

I'm no expert, but you could put some PVC pipe chunks in there for hiding places

[markandkristen]

if you dont have any bacteria on the filter than the amonia will prob rise pretty quickly you could try every other day but i would do it daily with that many fish in a 10 gallon. as far as doing the 50 % water change..

[patsfan1130]

Thats quite a few fish in a 10g. especially the tang. The actions you have taken thus far are spot on IMO. Copper will kill any LR you put in there so I would refrain. PVC is a good idea for the fish to have a place to feel safe. I would not add any other medications. Keep a close eye on them. your WC plan sounds good. test copper levels regularly and maintain (you will need to be all over this). keep lights to a minimum. The display will need to remain fallow for 6 - 8 weeks. I really think you should think about a larger tank. such a small tank can cause a lot of stress.

[kernyboy]

yeah, a bigger tank is in the works. I have an old 29 gallon tank. But it needs a good cleaning out. I just wanted to get them OUT of the display. I cant catch the goby or the wrasse. Should I just leave them in there? I know 6-8 weeks fallow is ideal, but in some case this can be hard to achieve without breaking down a tank.

I know the more fish you have, the greater the chance of ich...i figure with two small fish in my DT, it should be fine...wishful thinking on my part lol.

So 50% daily water change. Match Temp and Salinity. And I'm fine?

[iamwrasseman]

if you add live rock with the copper water dont put it anywhere that your gonna have corals in ! also i think that its gonna be stressful in that condition that your are explaining .i dont really like meds either but i have used a product called STOP PARASITE and it worked great , it feeds the ick a food that has no nutrition at all and the ick dies relieving the stress factor on the fish giving him a better chance with a less stressful life . also most tangs are ick magnets so he needs to be made "happy" and a QT tank wont perminatly do that . IMO i would use the stop parasite in your display tank and put the fish back in thus reducing thier stress level drasticly . i have had experiences with this and all my tanks are ick free so try it if you feel confident , if not its a QT tank for them all .good luck and i hope i helped with out causing an argument on this touchy subject ,

[jenglish]

what was your salinity before? you do not want to change salinity and add copper treatments at the same time. Copper is a toxic heavy metal and if the fish was used to 1.024 and is dealing w/ salt change and copper he is more likely to get stressed and die. Think of copper as kind of like chemo... its a cure but it is hard on the recepient. once you get rid of ich QT all fish in the future and never put any water from any other source in your tank and you will never have to do it again. any rock you put in during a copper treatment is pretty well ruined forever. Thats why I'm more a fan of hyposalinity.

[kernyboy]

ok..so im confused. so i SHOULDNT QT my fish cus it will stress them out??

[jenglish]

any treatment causes stress and there is a chance of mortality. You have to make the decision based on how big of a tank you have for a QT. I was merely saying that adding copper at the same time you change salinity (if you were not running 1.020 before) If you are changing salinity and temp at the same time you are putting the fish in a small tank and adding copper (which is toxic) you can be adding sufficient stress to do more harm than good. I have heard of people trying to use hyposalinity of 1.009 and copper at the same time and killing all their fish. I'm not saying to or not to follow any treatment protocol jsut trying to advise on all the variables

[will16]

Isn't leaving the goby and wrasse in the dt kind of counter productive? You may successfully cure all the fish in your qt but your display will still have ich. If you reintroduce those fish back into the dt, wouldn't they just get ich all over again?

I am wrestling with the same problem. Recently had an ich outbreak but there is no way I can catch all of my fish with out completely taking the tank apart. Figured it wouldnt be worth it unless I could catch all of the fish.

[jenglish]

Originally posted by will16
Isn't leaving the goby and wrasse in the dt kind of counter productive? You may successfully cure all the fish in your qt but your display will still have ich. If you reintroduce those fish back into the dt, wouldn't they just get ich all over again?

I am wrestling with the same problem. Recently had an ich outbreak but there is no way I can catch all of my fish with out completely taking the tank apart. Figured it wouldnt be worth it unless I could catch all of the fish.

+1, I didn't even read close enough to catch that yes, if you leave any fish in the system it defeats the purpose. In fact even if you can cure all the fish in 2 weeks with copper you need at least 6 weeks of fallow in the display tank to get ichs other life stages to die. W/ that many fish in a 10 gallon QT you may want to consider simply keeping water parameters as good as possible until you can get a larger QT that allows you to treat the fish safely.

[kernyboy]

yeah...i cant seem to catch them. They are small...i am large and clumsy. lol. My LFS told me that some of the burrowing fish are less prone to ich, as they are burrowers and have evolved to live in the substrate (where ich lives) so they have a higher tolerance to it (jawfish, dragonets etc). I'm hoping this is the case for the watchman...but that darn sixline.

They are SOO nimble and flexible. When I was trying to net him...he hid in spot no taller than a stack of say 4 quarters. I swore he winked then laughed at me.

[kernyboy]

what size QT tank do i need in that case??

[will16]

The problem is not so much that they themselves are less prone to ich but that they will be carriers and will allow the ich to stay in the tank waiting for your other fish to be reintroduced and starting the whole cycle over again.

[will16]

Originally posted by iamwrasseman
if you add live rock with the copper water dont put it anywhere that your gonna have corals in ! also i think that its gonna be stressful in that condition that your are explaining .i dont really like meds either but i have used a product called STOP PARASITE and it worked great , it feeds the ick a food that has no nutrition at all and the ick dies relieving the stress factor on the fish giving him a better chance with a less stressful life . also most tangs are ick magnets so he needs to be made "happy" and a QT tank wont perminatly do that . IMO i would use the stop parasite in your display tank and put the fish back in thus reducing thier stress level drasticly . i have had experiences with this and all my tanks are ick free so try it if you feel confident , if not its a QT tank for them all .good luck and i hope i helped with out causing an argument on this touchy subject ,

iamwrasseman, what type of corals did you have in the tanks that you used stop parasites in? Any adverse effects at all?

[kernyboy]

this is quickly turning into more of a problem than I initially though. Any ideas on how to catch my remaining fish? Advice on the size/space requirements to QT ALL of my fish? I have a 29 Gallon tank that i need to claen out..i can use this..but is this enough? going from a 55 to a 29 gallon tank?

[Tylt33]

Originally posted by kernyboy
this is quickly turning into more of a problem than I initially though. Any ideas on how to catch my remaining fish? Advice on the size/space requirements to QT ALL of my fish? I have a 29 Gallon tank that i need to claen out..i can use this..but is this enough? going from a 55 to a 29 gallon tank?

I'm going through the same problem, except all of my fish are dead except for a few that are remaining in the DT. I'm leaving them for six weeks AFTER I see the last symptoms of ich on them; I realize this could be months. So say, three months from now, no more white spots, I'll wait another 6 weeks before I add new fish. I realize this isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing.

I'm also treating the tank with Metronidazole, and raising the temp to 82 degrees.

[victor90]

Take half of the rocks out or
Use a clear container or a fish trap leave the trap in the tank for a few days for the fish to get use to it

[iamwrasseman]

i have 35 acans, a couple of aussie elegence corals, plate corals, dendros ,lobos .cregorians

[iamwrasseman]

oops didnt finish mushrooms,cyniaria , blastromusas,and some misc zoos , i never say any adverse effects at all that is why i tried to help .please dont get me wrong ,hyposalinity ,and copper ,along with fresh water dips all do help and may solve your problem but i found this STOP PARASITE and it has bailed me out three times in three different systems . it really did majic and absolutly no ill effects .as i said before i do like the natural choice but ick is everywhere and usually is stress induced so why put the fish into a more stressful enviroment to cure ? when you put the fish back IMO it will catch the ick that it left behind that is waiting for new inhabitents . ie the fish that you just cured will get it again especially tangs ,this is why i suggested the stop parisite . i do think thats your best approach , and good luck how are they doing ? its been 2 days now

[jenglish]

Originally posted by iamwrasseman
oops didnt finish mushrooms,cyniaria , blastromusas,and some misc zoos , i never say any adverse effects at all that is why i tried to help .please dont get me wrong ,hyposalinity ,and copper ,along with fresh water dips all do help and may solve your problem but i found this STOP PARASITE and it has bailed me out three times in three different systems . it really did majic and absolutly no ill effects .as i said before i do like the natural choice but ick is everywhere and usually is stress induced so why put the fish into a more stressful enviroment to cure ? when you put the fish back IMO it will catch the ick that it left behind that is waiting for new inhabitents . ie the fish that you just cured will get it again especially tangs ,this is why i suggested the stop parisite . i do think thats your best approach , and good luck how are they doing ? its been 2 days now

I have never used stop parasite so I cannot say if it does or does not work. The point I want to disagree on is that it seems like you are insinuating that the ich will be always waiting in the system. If a system is allowed to sit fallow w/o fish it the crypto will die off w/o a host. 99.9% of the time this is within 60 days but 72 days has been seen in laboratory studies. Are you saying that stop parasite cures the fish or helps it battle it back into submission (no visible signs)? It is possible to get a tank ich free and with proper QT before introducing specimens can stay ich free.

But the OP's fish that were in the QT all succumbed. He posted that in another thread.

[iamwrasseman]

i may be wrong but i have always believed that ick is always there waiting to get a strong hold on a stressed fish ,i could very well be wrong that is just what i have heard many times . please do tell me if im wrong

[jenglish]

ich is common but not always there. This misconception is very common because so many people will see it go into remission and think it is "gone" until they stress them out and have another visible outbreak. Fish develop partial immunity to a strain and may go years w/o being stressed enough to show visible signs. I know people who have had their systems ich free since the 70s. Now he could stress his fish to death but they would not show signs of ich. Some folks will not see have ich under control and not see it for years. Whethor or not it bothers the fish while it is under control is debateable. As to its prevelance I see wide varieties of estimates between 5% in the wild and 30% in the wild.

Hope that helps

[BigManBud]

FWIW, Christmas morning I drained my 120 down to about an inch of water to catch a polyp munchin flame angel. I had some new trash cans that I had just bought and some others that I use to mix salt in. the fish finally came out of the rocks and flopped on the sand, I got him and pumped the water back in. took me all of 30 minutes, didnt tear anything down and everything was fine. that might work for you