Whole sump as fuge?

mikeintosh · 01/22/2009, 09:35 PM

A bit lengthy, but I'm hoping I'm on to something...

There's a lot of opinion out there stating that the larger the fuge the better (nutrient export, ph benefits, pod growth). If that was the case, what would be the downfalls of just turning the sump into one big fuge...

I have a 100g display draining into a 40g sump. There are 2 drain lines -- one draining into the recirc skimmer, the other into a filter sock. Right now, I'm using a piece eggcrate to section off a portion of the sump where I keep some live rock and chaeto on an evening photoperiod schedule. This arrangement has worked out pretty well, but I don't think I'm getting enough "extra" nutrients to benefit the pod population. I would also really like to leverage the fuge as another piece of "natural" filtration.

So... my plan is to remove the eggcrate divider (maybe just section off the return drain to avoid clogging), remove the filter sock from 2nd drain and configure that drain onto some sort of "algae scrubber".

Without the sock, now the "scrubber" can provide additional nutrient export while allowing some food through to help feed the pods; and the skimmer is still free to do its usual thing. Win/Win???

Does anyone have any thoughts or input? Sorry for the length, just wanted to be thorough...

Fish_wiz2 · 01/22/2009, 09:41 PM

i would say go for it. i don't really know about the pod pop. increasing because that is up to many factors (not really nutrients) but the larger refugium does have it benefits like you mentioned and should be attempted.

Playa-1 · 01/22/2009, 11:35 PM

Without baffles or a bubble trap you have the potential for bubbles from the skimmer to work their way to the return pump and ultimately into the DT. The same issue could be said of the drain lines to the sump/fuge. That's the only issue that comes to mind other then the potential for debris or clogging issues with the return pump.

morrisgigantus · 01/23/2009, 12:42 AM

I say go for it...!!

You never know til u try..
when u do.. document it here on RC..

take lots of pictures, check water quality often, and document everything you do.. but for sure a bubble trap

good luck.. : )

mikeintosh · 01/23/2009, 01:11 AM

No baffles in my sump...They take up too much room.

My solution to the microbubbles has been to divert any drains to flow at an angle at water-level. It seems to work for the skimmer, so I figure I try it for the scrubber.

I'll try to get some visuals up.

Playa-1 · 01/23/2009, 01:36 AM

It can't hurt to give it a shot. It will be interesting to see how it works out for you.

BuddhaKiss · 01/23/2009, 01:53 AM

I say go for it as well....never know til you try right? But wouldn't having the skimmer in the same section as the fuge pull up some of your pods?

snorvich · 01/23/2009, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Playa-1
Without baffles or a bubble trap you have the potential for bubbles from the skimmer to work their way to the return pump and ultimately into the DT. The same issue could be said of the drain lines to the sump/fuge. That's the only issue that comes to mind other then the potential for debris or clogging issues with the return pump.

I agree. Good advice. I know that I would not do it.

mikeintosh · 01/23/2009, 08:41 AM

Skimmer only pulls up what comes down from one of the overflow drains. So pods are safe.

This project isn't too intensive, so if bubbles become an issue I can always go back to the filter sock. And I guess I'll have to get pictures up to show that as long as the water's not dropping straight down, micro bubbles are eliminated. Big bubbles do form, but they surface quickly. In addition, the return line drain is surrounded by a rubble pile. So I guess that sort of helps as a baffle.

barrysalt · 01/23/2009, 09:08 AM

I assume that there is no sand bed in your sump/refuge? From most of the threads on subject, having a section separated with a DSB, chaeto, LR is the optimum environment for pods, filtration, etc. Perhaps not absolutely necessary, but worth it. All of Melev's sump designs include a section for DSB, etc. May want to check it out....

gimmic · 01/23/2009, 09:59 AM

Everyone seems to be forgetting that if you have zero baffles, your water level will change in the sump throwing your skimmer into fits.
You need at least ONE baffle after the skimmer to keep water level steady for it.

**Edit** Just noticed you have a recerc, sorry! you can probably disregard this post.
Good luck~

mikeintosh · 01/26/2009, 05:45 PM

Well, here is a prelim of my simple and cost-effective pvc algae scrubber design. There was a lot of material online on scrubbers, but I chose to take the simplist approach while applying the basic principles of the design. And thanks to those who helped provide some of the helpful info.

The water is fed by the 2nd overflow pipe so no pump is required. The lighting is spiral bulb that currently lights the chaeto. If this works, then it should meet my requirements of: 1. not adding any more power consumption 2. allowing pods to circulate freely 3. provide additional filtration for inorganic waste.

Can't see in the photos, but the bottoms of the frame are plugged to allow the water to flow from all three sides. The "runway" for the water is a plastic screen that I think are used for cross stitching. Right now, a lot of the water runs through it so there's lots of splashing underneath. But I just moved some of my chaeto there to absorb some of the bubbles. I'm willing to live with the minor micro bubbles for now since I'm hoping once the algae grows, less water will flow through and more across.

It's also a little smaller than I first envisioned, but I wanted to allow room for easy removal and space for my other equipment. We'll see how effective (if at all) this is first.

Guess next step is to wait...

mikeintosh · 01/26/2009, 05:47 PM

Feel free to chime in regarding any comments for improvements please!

Thanks

enemec1 · 01/26/2009, 06:31 PM

what is the pic of and what does that set up do?
will tha eliminate the filter socks?
thats the drain line from the overflow of the tank right?

pIankton · 01/26/2009, 07:40 PM

Cool idea. I will hopefully be upgrading soon and will be using a 55 gallon for a sump. It's not ideal, but it works and it's included in the price.

Anyway, I was thinking of going with pretty much a cryptic, non-lit sponge type of sump, but you've gotten me intrigued by not using baffles, eggcrate, etc.

Subscribed.

mikeintosh · 01/26/2009, 08:31 PM

The photo is of my version of a turf scrubber. It is supposed to replace my filter sock which only served as a mechanical (organic waste) filter. I already have the first drain dedicated to my skimmer which does the same thing, so why not convert the 2nd drain to an inorganic filter? A lot of literature on scrubbers have folks installing them in order to get rid of their skimmer. Mine is more of a SUPPLEMENT to the filtration, an environment that will allow critters to grow, as well as another form of aeration.

I read about those cryptic zones, but they seem to involve more work than I was willing to dedicate. And I spent more time measuring than building and installing this scrubber. Re: not using baffles, I'm using live rock as barriers in front of the return drain. And I find that if the sump is large enough you can limit the quick current giving bubbles time to rise. Although, once the chaeto grows large enough throughout, that should serve as a good bubble diffuser. My sump is a 40 gal.

01/22/2009, 09:35 PM	#1
mikeintosh Mikeintosh Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 356	Whole sump as fuge? A bit lengthy, but I'm hoping I'm on to something... There's a lot of opinion out there stating that the larger the fuge the better (nutrient export, ph benefits, pod growth). If that was the case, what would be the downfalls of just turning the sump into one big fuge... I have a 100g display draining into a 40g sump. There are 2 drain lines -- one draining into the recirc skimmer, the other into a filter sock. Right now, I'm using a piece eggcrate to section off a portion of the sump where I keep some live rock and chaeto on an evening photoperiod schedule. This arrangement has worked out pretty well, but I don't think I'm getting enough "extra" nutrients to benefit the pod population. I would also really like to leverage the fuge as another piece of "natural" filtration. So... my plan is to remove the eggcrate divider (maybe just section off the return drain to avoid clogging), remove the filter sock from 2nd drain and configure that drain onto some sort of "algae scrubber". Without the sock, now the "scrubber" can provide additional nutrient export while allowing some food through to help feed the pods; and the skimmer is still free to do its usual thing. Win/Win??? Does anyone have any thoughts or input? Sorry for the length, just wanted to be thorough...

01/22/2009, 09:41 PM	#2
Fish_wiz2 Mangroves are kool. Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,246	i would say go for it. i don't really know about the pod pop. increasing because that is up to many factors (not really nutrients) but the larger refugium does have it benefits like you mentioned and should be attempted. __________________ -The Wiz Current Tank Info: Elos Mini Seahorse Tank, 2500 gallon Koi pond

01/23/2009, 12:42 AM	#4
morrisgigantus Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: san antonio Posts: 66	I say go for it...!! You never know til u try.. when u do.. document it here on RC.. take lots of pictures, check water quality often, and document everything you do.. but for sure a bubble trap good luck.. : ) __________________ "STEPPED ON ME!!?? STEPPED ON ME!!?? . Are u kiddin, the guy was dancin on me!! Here, look at this! Broken, Broken, Gone, Gone, BROKEN BROKEN BROKEN!!" - Ivan (Sea Urchin) Current Tank Info: 55g reef w 400 empr powerhead1200x2

01/23/2009, 09:08 AM	#10
barrysalt Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Warren, Ohio Posts: 274	I assume that there is no sand bed in your sump/refuge? From most of the threads on subject, having a section separated with a DSB, chaeto, LR is the optimum environment for pods, filtration, etc. Perhaps not absolutely necessary, but worth it. All of Melev's sump designs include a section for DSB, etc. May want to check it out.... __________________ I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. Current Tank Info: mngr of 3 tanks, 8,000 gals total

01/26/2009, 06:31 PM	#14
enemec1 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Rydal PA Posts: 907	what is the pic of and what does that set up do? will tha eliminate the filter socks? thats the drain line from the overflow of the tank right? __________________ Help my wife is going to kill me, I'm spending my sons college funds. Current Tank Info: two 30 gallon cubes

01/22/2009, 11:35 PM	#3
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	Without baffles or a bubble trap you have the potential for bubbles from the skimmer to work their way to the return pump and ultimately into the DT. The same issue could be said of the drain lines to the sump/fuge. That's the only issue that comes to mind other then the potential for debris or clogging issues with the return pump.

01/23/2009, 01:11 AM	#5
mikeintosh Mikeintosh Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 356	No baffles in my sump...They take up too much room. My solution to the microbubbles has been to divert any drains to flow at an angle at water-level. It seems to work for the skimmer, so I figure I try it for the scrubber. I'll try to get some visuals up.

01/23/2009, 01:36 AM	#6
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	It can't hurt to give it a shot. It will be interesting to see how it works out for you.

01/23/2009, 01:53 AM	#7
BuddhaKiss Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Northern Va Posts: 1,068	I say go for it as well....never know til you try right? But wouldn't having the skimmer in the same section as the fuge pull up some of your pods?

01/23/2009, 08:41 AM	#9
mikeintosh Mikeintosh Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 356	Skimmer only pulls up what comes down from one of the overflow drains. So pods are safe. This project isn't too intensive, so if bubbles become an issue I can always go back to the filter sock. And I guess I'll have to get pictures up to show that as long as the water's not dropping straight down, micro bubbles are eliminated. Big bubbles do form, but they surface quickly. In addition, the return line drain is surrounded by a rubble pile. So I guess that sort of helps as a baffle.

01/23/2009, 09:59 AM	#11
gimmic Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 515	Everyone seems to be forgetting that if you have zero baffles, your water level will change in the sump throwing your skimmer into fits. You need at least ONE baffle after the skimmer to keep water level steady for it. Edit Just noticed you have a recerc, sorry! you can probably disregard this post. Good luck~

01/26/2009, 05:45 PM	#12
mikeintosh Mikeintosh Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 356	Well, here is a prelim of my simple and cost-effective pvc algae scrubber design. There was a lot of material online on scrubbers, but I chose to take the simplist approach while applying the basic principles of the design. And thanks to those who helped provide some of the helpful info. The water is fed by the 2nd overflow pipe so no pump is required. The lighting is spiral bulb that currently lights the chaeto. If this works, then it should meet my requirements of: 1. not adding any more power consumption 2. allowing pods to circulate freely 3. provide additional filtration for inorganic waste. Can't see in the photos, but the bottoms of the frame are plugged to allow the water to flow from all three sides. The "runway" for the water is a plastic screen that I think are used for cross stitching. Right now, a lot of the water runs through it so there's lots of splashing underneath. But I just moved some of my chaeto there to absorb some of the bubbles. I'm willing to live with the minor micro bubbles for now since I'm hoping once the algae grows, less water will flow through and more across. It's also a little smaller than I first envisioned, but I wanted to allow room for easy removal and space for my other equipment. We'll see how effective (if at all) this is first. Guess next step is to wait...

01/26/2009, 05:47 PM	#13
mikeintosh Mikeintosh Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 356	Feel free to chime in regarding any comments for improvements please! Thanks

01/26/2009, 07:40 PM	#15
pIankton Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 556	Cool idea. I will hopefully be upgrading soon and will be using a 55 gallon for a sump. It's not ideal, but it works and it's included in the price. Anyway, I was thinking of going with pretty much a cryptic, non-lit sponge type of sump, but you've gotten me intrigued by not using baffles, eggcrate, etc. Subscribed.

01/26/2009, 08:31 PM	#16
mikeintosh Mikeintosh Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 356	The photo is of my version of a turf scrubber. It is supposed to replace my filter sock which only served as a mechanical (organic waste) filter. I already have the first drain dedicated to my skimmer which does the same thing, so why not convert the 2nd drain to an inorganic filter? A lot of literature on scrubbers have folks installing them in order to get rid of their skimmer. Mine is more of a SUPPLEMENT to the filtration, an environment that will allow critters to grow, as well as another form of aeration. I read about those cryptic zones, but they seem to involve more work than I was willing to dedicate. And I spent more time measuring than building and installing this scrubber. Re: not using baffles, I'm using live rock as barriers in front of the return drain. And I find that if the sump is large enough you can limit the quick current giving bubbles time to rise. Although, once the chaeto grows large enough throughout, that should serve as a good bubble diffuser. My sump is a 40 gal.