why are these LPS not diong well???

SharkBait_Mtl · 03/28/2009, 10:37 AM

Hi all....

I have a client who has a 180g setup since just around nov-dec.

He is lightly stocked with fish,

2x firefish
maroon clown
blue hippo tang
vlamingii tang
powder brown or whitecheeck (not sure which)
neon goby.

he also has a various assortment of corals sps/lps/softy

favite
open brain
acro
3x hammer/torch
ricordea
montestraea
elegance
bubble coral (added 3 days ago)

his water parameters...

pH - 8-4
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate - 0
SG - 1.025
temp - 84.9 (a little high I know)
ca - 400
KH - 7 (it dropped from 9 3days ago)
phosphate- negligible

He has been saying that for the last week his LPS has not been looking to good. been staying closed and 2x of his hammer/torch are dying/dead. there is no direct flow on the torch/hammer and they are getting plenty of light (3x 250W MH either 15 or 20k).

he called me last night and told me that the skeleton is starting to show on the bubble coral that I recently added to his tank. and also his montestraea is showing a lot of skeleton near the top. I put it lower in the tank... hopefully this will help. the bubble was always on the SB.

I went and checked wis water... everything was ok except for the temp which was at 84.9. Is it just that his temp is too high??? I am thinking of adding a chiller to his tank soon.... especially if he is having heat issues now and it is not even summer.

any suggestions of what may be going on here would be appreciated.

Thanks

Aquabucket · 03/28/2009, 10:46 AM

"KH - 7 (it dropped from 9 3days ago)"

Its not OK to have Alk fluctuating like that. I think one of the big reasons I have had great success in my tank is rock steady parameters. How is he supplementing Cal. and Alk? The other thing could be light shock.

SharkBait_Mtl · 03/28/2009, 10:55 AM

well...

the test difference was done with 2 different test kits seperated by 3 days.

I had one of my collegues test with their test kits and cross reference against my tests... .everything was the same except for the KH.

Also I had done a 50g water change about 10-15mins prior to doing my water tests so maybe I got a faulty reading.

we are not really dosing his tank with anything... I am using Red Sea Coral Pro on his tank when I do bi-weekly waterchanges.

I only added a little of SeaChem advantage Calcium a month ago because is Ca was at 380... I did not add any on his last waterchange... his Ca was at 400.

the torch/hammer looked good for 2-4 weeks after I put them in his tank... why would light shock be an issue 2 -4weeks later??

MileHighFish · 03/28/2009, 10:57 AM

Is there fans in the canopy and or sump? Has this tank ran cooler in the past and just jumped up? Has the lighting been upgraded recently?

SharkBait_Mtl · 03/28/2009, 10:58 AM

no fans.... this tank has only been set-up in nov-dec... he has had the same lights since I started doing service on it. his temp has always stayed inbetween 80-85

Aquabucket · 03/28/2009, 11:04 AM

Besides the alk fluctuating your temp could be a problem as well. What is the daytime temp vs night time temp? 84 degrees won't kill your corals but if the swing from night to day is really high that could be a problem. You may find it to be quite difficult to maintain proper calcium and alk levels by just performing water changes. I would look into dosing a 2 part as soon as possible.

With most new LPS its also a good idea to start them off at the bottom of the tank or in slightly shaded areas. Its also good to know the lighting conditions they were under before you got them.

SharkBait_Mtl · 03/28/2009, 11:06 AM

I am not sure about the temp swing... I usually go service his tank around noon....

his Ca has swung from 380 to 420 since I started servicing the tank.

his KH has stayed inbetween 8-10 using my test kits, on a weekly service call

MileHighFish · 03/28/2009, 11:08 AM

I would add fans to that tank I understand your in the biz of making $$ so the chiller might be more profitable (no offense I would do the same), but either way I think 85 is on the upper end of comfortable for coral.. I know I nature that 85 is not unreasonable but I would factor in that most of the aquarium thermometers are not very accurate, and if its 2 deg off you could be running the risk of trouble. you mentioned that one of the corals was recently introduced I would assume that it isn't use to the high temps and couldn't acclimate, where as other corals in that tank have adjusted to the high temp. Just a guess

SharkBait_Mtl · 03/28/2009, 11:45 AM

I am just thinking that temp is the main factor here.... maybe the KH as well... but I gotta recheck that..

thx for the input eveyone....

OwenInAZ · 03/28/2009, 12:16 PM

My tank normally runs at ~82, just due to the fact that chilling a tank in Phoenix is (for me anyway) prohibitively expensive. I think you're on to something with the swing in temp rather than absolute temp, with the lights on vs off and day vs. night. Maybe also the swing in kH. Hope you get things worked out

redfishsc · 03/28/2009, 12:59 PM

To go with that, does this tank have any refugium on it?

I know that refugiums are totally optional, but I have to admit that I'd always consider having at least a small refugium on any tank to help combat pH fluctuations and provide nutrient export via the algae.

While I doubt pH is what's ailing these LPS (considering other corals seem to be fine), a pH fluctuation may also be happening at night.

SharkBait_Mtl · 03/28/2009, 02:55 PM

A refuge is a work in progress... I have told him the benifits of having a fuge... I am just waiting on the ok.... nutrient export and pH is not a problem... as pH is always 8.4 and nitrates are always 0 when I check his tank.... but then again... I am not there to see the pH fluctuation in -between service calls..

hoosierpat · 03/28/2009, 03:08 PM

Double check your nitrates against another kit. I had a client that was losing a lot of LPS slowly and mysteriously. It turned out that the test kit I was using was bad and nitrates were higher than they should have been. It was a costly oversight to say the least. All softies were ok but the lps would slowly die off. This was with water changes every other week but the tank had a ton more fish than yours.

SharkBait_Mtl · 03/28/2009, 03:11 PM

test kits were compared between my kits and the store I work out of....

0 nitrates....

but after all... it is API.. and I hate API Nitrate test kits..... they have to be well shaken before each use or you can have inaccurate results...

I personally use Salifert for my home tank... but salifert is too expensive to be using on service calls....

03/28/2009, 10:37 AM	#1
SharkBait_Mtl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 354	why are these LPS not diong well??? Hi all.... I have a client who has a 180g setup since just around nov-dec. He is lightly stocked with fish, 2x firefish maroon clown blue hippo tang vlamingii tang powder brown or whitecheeck (not sure which) neon goby. he also has a various assortment of corals sps/lps/softy favite open brain acro 3x hammer/torch ricordea montestraea elegance bubble coral (added 3 days ago) his water parameters... pH - 8-4 ammonia/nitrite/nitrate - 0 SG - 1.025 temp - 84.9 (a little high I know) ca - 400 KH - 7 (it dropped from 9 3days ago) phosphate- negligible He has been saying that for the last week his LPS has not been looking to good. been staying closed and 2x of his hammer/torch are dying/dead. there is no direct flow on the torch/hammer and they are getting plenty of light (3x 250W MH either 15 or 20k). he called me last night and told me that the skeleton is starting to show on the bubble coral that I recently added to his tank. and also his montestraea is showing a lot of skeleton near the top. I put it lower in the tank... hopefully this will help. the bubble was always on the SB. I went and checked wis water... everything was ok except for the temp which was at 84.9. Is it just that his temp is too high??? I am thinking of adding a chiller to his tank soon.... especially if he is having heat issues now and it is not even summer. any suggestions of what may be going on here would be appreciated. Thanks __________________ SharkBait_Mtl ~700g system 180g in-wall reef (build) 40g coral raising tank 60g DT 80g banggai breeder 29g clown breeder 20g raising tank + 3 sumps, refugium Profilux Plus EX2 controlled Reefing is like racing... the faster you go the harder you crash click red house for my 180 build

03/28/2009, 10:46 AM	#2
Aquabucket Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Green Bay, Wi. Posts: 4,455	"KH - 7 (it dropped from 9 3days ago)" Its not OK to have Alk fluctuating like that. I think one of the big reasons I have had great success in my tank is rock steady parameters. How is he supplementing Cal. and Alk? The other thing could be light shock. __________________ "Just a drop in the bucket"

03/28/2009, 10:55 AM	#3
SharkBait_Mtl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 354	well... the test difference was done with 2 different test kits seperated by 3 days. I had one of my collegues test with their test kits and cross reference against my tests... .everything was the same except for the KH. Also I had done a 50g water change about 10-15mins prior to doing my water tests so maybe I got a faulty reading. we are not really dosing his tank with anything... I am using Red Sea Coral Pro on his tank when I do bi-weekly waterchanges. I only added a little of SeaChem advantage Calcium a month ago because is Ca was at 380... I did not add any on his last waterchange... his Ca was at 400. the torch/hammer looked good for 2-4 weeks after I put them in his tank... why would light shock be an issue 2 -4weeks later?? __________________ SharkBait_Mtl ~700g system 180g in-wall reef (build) 40g coral raising tank 60g DT 80g banggai breeder 29g clown breeder 20g raising tank + 3 sumps, refugium Profilux Plus EX2 controlled Reefing is like racing... the faster you go the harder you crash click red house for my 180 build

03/28/2009, 10:57 AM	#4
MileHighFish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NM. Posts: 1,722	Is there fans in the canopy and or sump? Has this tank ran cooler in the past and just jumped up? Has the lighting been upgraded recently? __________________ See "Red House" for pics!! I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. Mitch Hedberg Current Tank Info: Reef tank, 100 gal Lee Mar polished.. 60 sump.. 800 watts mh 20k radium..Ran on "Taiwan HQI Ballast" 330 watt VHO.. 48 watt compacts (dawn/dusk).. sps/lps tank..

03/28/2009, 10:58 AM	#5
SharkBait_Mtl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 354	no fans.... this tank has only been set-up in nov-dec... he has had the same lights since I started doing service on it. his temp has always stayed inbetween 80-85 __________________ SharkBait_Mtl ~700g system 180g in-wall reef (build) 40g coral raising tank 60g DT 80g banggai breeder 29g clown breeder 20g raising tank + 3 sumps, refugium Profilux Plus EX2 controlled Reefing is like racing... the faster you go the harder you crash click red house for my 180 build

03/28/2009, 11:04 AM	#6
Aquabucket Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Green Bay, Wi. Posts: 4,455	Besides the alk fluctuating your temp could be a problem as well. What is the daytime temp vs night time temp? 84 degrees won't kill your corals but if the swing from night to day is really high that could be a problem. You may find it to be quite difficult to maintain proper calcium and alk levels by just performing water changes. I would look into dosing a 2 part as soon as possible. With most new LPS its also a good idea to start them off at the bottom of the tank or in slightly shaded areas. Its also good to know the lighting conditions they were under before you got them. __________________ "Just a drop in the bucket"

03/28/2009, 11:06 AM	#7
SharkBait_Mtl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 354	I am not sure about the temp swing... I usually go service his tank around noon.... his Ca has swung from 380 to 420 since I started servicing the tank. his KH has stayed inbetween 8-10 using my test kits, on a weekly service call __________________ SharkBait_Mtl ~700g system 180g in-wall reef (build) 40g coral raising tank 60g DT 80g banggai breeder 29g clown breeder 20g raising tank + 3 sumps, refugium Profilux Plus EX2 controlled Reefing is like racing... the faster you go the harder you crash click red house for my 180 build

03/28/2009, 11:08 AM	#8
MileHighFish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: NM. Posts: 1,722	I would add fans to that tank I understand your in the biz of making $$ so the chiller might be more profitable (no offense I would do the same), but either way I think 85 is on the upper end of comfortable for coral.. I know I nature that 85 is not unreasonable but I would factor in that most of the aquarium thermometers are not very accurate, and if its 2 deg off you could be running the risk of trouble. you mentioned that one of the corals was recently introduced I would assume that it isn't use to the high temps and couldn't acclimate, where as other corals in that tank have adjusted to the high temp. Just a guess __________________ See "Red House" for pics!! I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. Mitch Hedberg Current Tank Info: Reef tank, 100 gal Lee Mar polished.. 60 sump.. 800 watts mh 20k radium..Ran on "Taiwan HQI Ballast" 330 watt VHO.. 48 watt compacts (dawn/dusk).. sps/lps tank..

03/28/2009, 11:45 AM	#9
SharkBait_Mtl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 354	I am just thinking that temp is the main factor here.... maybe the KH as well... but I gotta recheck that.. thx for the input eveyone.... __________________ SharkBait_Mtl ~700g system 180g in-wall reef (build) 40g coral raising tank 60g DT 80g banggai breeder 29g clown breeder 20g raising tank + 3 sumps, refugium Profilux Plus EX2 controlled Reefing is like racing... the faster you go the harder you crash click red house for my 180 build

03/28/2009, 12:16 PM	#10
OwenInAZ Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 2,409	My tank normally runs at ~82, just due to the fact that chilling a tank in Phoenix is (for me anyway) prohibitively expensive. I think you're on to something with the swing in temp rather than absolute temp, with the lights on vs off and day vs. night. Maybe also the swing in kH. Hope you get things worked out __________________ Owen Professional Bacteria Geek "Ree... cy... cling?" "One day it's a bowl full of cherries, one night I'm suckin' on lemons and spittin' out the seeds" Current Tank Info: 90 gallon tall reef

03/28/2009, 12:59 PM	#11
redfishsc Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Wake Forest, NC Posts: 3,696	To go with that, does this tank have any refugium on it? I know that refugiums are totally optional, but I have to admit that I'd always consider having at least a small refugium on any tank to help combat pH fluctuations and provide nutrient export via the algae. While I doubt pH is what's ailing these LPS (considering other corals seem to be fine), a pH fluctuation may also be happening at night. __________________ "The measure of a life is not its duration but its donation." Corrie Ten Boom “The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins” -- Søren Kierkegaard Current Tank Info: ghetto grad school reef.....11g rimless tank, 36X9X9, lit by Cree and Rebels scobbled together. Stocked mostly with free stuff I got from panhandling my fellow reefers.

03/28/2009, 02:55 PM	#12
SharkBait_Mtl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 354	A refuge is a work in progress... I have told him the benifits of having a fuge... I am just waiting on the ok.... nutrient export and pH is not a problem... as pH is always 8.4 and nitrates are always 0 when I check his tank.... but then again... I am not there to see the pH fluctuation in -between service calls.. __________________ SharkBait_Mtl ~700g system 180g in-wall reef (build) 40g coral raising tank 60g DT 80g banggai breeder 29g clown breeder 20g raising tank + 3 sumps, refugium Profilux Plus EX2 controlled Reefing is like racing... the faster you go the harder you crash click red house for my 180 build

03/28/2009, 03:08 PM	#13
hoosierpat Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Crete, IL Posts: 862	Double check your nitrates against another kit. I had a client that was losing a lot of LPS slowly and mysteriously. It turned out that the test kit I was using was bad and nitrates were higher than they should have been. It was a costly oversight to say the least. All softies were ok but the lps would slowly die off. This was with water changes every other week but the tank had a ton more fish than yours.

03/28/2009, 03:11 PM	#14
SharkBait_Mtl Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 354	test kits were compared between my kits and the store I work out of.... 0 nitrates.... but after all... it is API.. and I hate API Nitrate test kits..... they have to be well shaken before each use or you can have inaccurate results... I personally use Salifert for my home tank... but salifert is too expensive to be using on service calls.... __________________ SharkBait_Mtl ~700g system 180g in-wall reef (build) 40g coral raising tank 60g DT 80g banggai breeder 29g clown breeder 20g raising tank + 3 sumps, refugium Profilux Plus EX2 controlled Reefing is like racing... the faster you go the harder you crash click red house for my 180 build