QTing inverts...and where did I get ich?? - Page 2

JoelNB · 04/13/2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tmz
Hit the therapuetic dose and stay there for the 2 week time period usually recommended, in my opinion.

Are you suggesting two weeks with copper then a further month in QT with normal water?

Also, is the therapeutic dose between 0.2 and 0.25?

rkelman · 04/13/2009, 06:26 PM

"My copper test is not sensitive enough to read 0.25ppm."

Get another test kit.. If you are going to treat with copper you need proper test kits.

"@rkelman: I could not find any suitable copper treatment so I am left to use copper sulphate."

I'm sorry I don't get it. If you can dose 10% of the water correctly why can't you dose the entire tank? How do you know the copper levels in the tank after adding that 10% back to the QT?

goldmaniac · 04/13/2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tmz
Hypo salinity is not always effective. There are resistant strains.

Are you serious????? I'm QT'ing with hypo for the first time, since my display tank has been fish-free for 3 months now.

My salinity/S.G. is 1.009. Is that enough to make hypo reliable?

QT'ing fish has been the most frustrating part of this hobby in my 9 years if experience.

Can anyone else confirm that hypo at 1.009 isn't a sure thing?

JoelNB · 04/13/2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rkelman
[B]Get another test kit..

There isn't one within 100 miles of here and I don't have the time to get another. I dosed 10% of my tank water so I could use the test kit to read 2.5ppm instead of 0.25ppm. Unless there is some chemical reaction with the other 90% happening, then why wouldn't it be correct?

BTW I don't have a refractometer and have been told that using hypo with one is more dangerous than using copper with a comparatively hit and miss test kit.

rkelman · 04/13/2009, 08:00 PM

"Can anyone else confirm that hypo at 1.009 isn't a sure thing?"

Absolutely I can confirm it is not a sure thing. I've had it happen.

"There isn't one within 100 miles of here and I don't have the time to get another."

Where do you live? Why could you not order one online and have it shipped next day service? Or even 2 days. You don't have time to not get it ordered...

"I dosed 10% of my tank water so I could use the test kit to read 2.5ppm instead of 0.25ppm. Unless there is some chemical reaction with the other 90% happening, then why wouldn't it be correct?"

So your test kit can tell the difference between 2.5 and 2.75 or 2.25?

"BTW I don't have a refractometer and have been told that using hypo with one is more dangerous than using copper with a comparatively hit and miss test kit."

You need to buy a refractometer. Its one of the most basic tools in the hobby. Using hypo with a refractometer is safe. Hypo with a hydrometer is not. If you decide to dose copper you need a proper test kit. If you do hypo you need a refractometer. These are the things that need to be purchased to responsibly care for the animals we house in our aquariums. These are not even close to being as expensive as the live rock / sand or even the fish you are trying to save. Its really a no brainer. Continuing as you are without the tools needed at your disposal is likely to end badly.

tmz · 04/13/2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoelNB
Are you suggesting two weeks with copper then a further month in QT with normal water?

Also, is the therapeutic dose between 0.2 and 0.25?

Yes six weeks total is what I do.

That is the therapuetic range ,generally . It depends on what product you use. Cupramine provides a broader effective range since some of the copper in it is bound . Check the Sea Chem sponsor forum for q and a on this product. It's easier to use than copper sulfate products ,in my opinion.

jenglish · 04/14/2009, 12:04 AM

I have heard of instances of both copper and hypo protocols failing but I have heard more instances of hypo failing. I wonder how much of that is hypo resistant strains and how much of it is the fact that it is a longer treatment with more chances to screw it up.

JoelNB · 04/14/2009, 12:24 AM

I want to try holding the copper for three weeks as that is said to be the cycle time at normal temps (I am at 82 so this should cover it well). I'll keep a close watch for signs and the lights will stay low. I'll keep the nori up.

I have heard good things about chloroquine diphosphate. This may fix my problem altogether (may need to se a veterinarian for a prescription, though).

tmz · 04/14/2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by goldmaniac
Are you serious????? I'm QT'ing with hypo for the first time, since my display tank has been fish-free for 3 months now.

My salinity/S.G. is 1.009. Is that enough to make hypo reliable?

QT'ing fish has been the most frustrating part of this hobby in my 9 years if experience.

Can anyone else confirm that hypo at 1.009 isn't a sure thing?

It can be very frustrating , but hypo just hasn't worked as well as copper or the tank transfer method for me. I did perform the process correctly(at 1.009 per refractometer and slainity monmtor) on several occasions and the ich returned .

There are no benefits to the fish from hypo beyond ich treatment and it can have long term negative consequences. Short term they have to do less work since they will drink less and process less urine. However, long term the kidneys may atrophy and other internal processes may suffer. . Afterall they are evolved to live in typical nsw sgs (1.0264). Prolonged deliberate exposure to unnatural levels seems likely to do harm.

You can't go any lower than 1.009. The internal salinity of marine fish is about 1.008. While marine fish have evolved to live in higher salinities via osmoregulation( they drink copiously and pass concentrated urine), they have no ability to cope with external sg lower than their internal sg . They can't expel the excess fluid that diffuses into them upsetting their internal chemistry and homeostasis.

Hypo does work many times from what I have read. However, it seems that hypo advocates always claim the process needs to be longer or was performed incorrectly whenever a case of failure and there are many is noted.. I hope it works for you.

rkelman · 04/14/2009, 04:37 AM

How do you plan on keeping the Copper levels consistent when you can't test for it?

JoelNB · 04/14/2009, 05:22 AM

I'm hoping that the water will sit tight for the three weeks then I'll gradually change the copper out. If it doesn't, like if I get an ammonia spike or something then I plan to change out the exact amount that coincides with one of my test kit levels and thirdly, the quinine is on the back-burner.

rkelman · 04/14/2009, 03:48 PM

"I'm hoping that the water will sit tight for the three weeks"

There is not a chance. Usually the dosage has to be repeated until it stabilizes at a therapeutic level.

04/14/2009, 12:04 AM	#32
jenglish Marquis de Carabas Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,523	I have heard of instances of both copper and hypo protocols failing but I have heard more instances of hypo failing. I wonder how much of that is hypo resistant strains and how much of it is the fact that it is a longer treatment with more chances to screw it up. __________________ Jeremy Brown liquor never hurt anybody “Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse" Pierre-Simon Laplace I should want to cook him a simple meal, but I shouldn't want to cut into him, to tear the flesh, to wear the flesh, to be born unto new worlds where his flesh becomes my key. Current Tank Info: broken and dry

04/13/2009, 06:26 PM	#27
rkelman Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Belleville, Ontario Canada Posts: 3,438	"My copper test is not sensitive enough to read 0.25ppm." Get another test kit.. If you are going to treat with copper you need proper test kits. "@rkelman: I could not find any suitable copper treatment so I am left to use copper sulphate." I'm sorry I don't get it. If you can dose 10% of the water correctly why can't you dose the entire tank? How do you know the copper levels in the tank after adding that 10% back to the QT?

04/13/2009, 08:00 PM	#30
rkelman Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Belleville, Ontario Canada Posts: 3,438	"Can anyone else confirm that hypo at 1.009 isn't a sure thing?" Absolutely I can confirm it is not a sure thing. I've had it happen. "There isn't one within 100 miles of here and I don't have the time to get another." Where do you live? Why could you not order one online and have it shipped next day service? Or even 2 days. You don't have time to not get it ordered... "I dosed 10% of my tank water so I could use the test kit to read 2.5ppm instead of 0.25ppm. Unless there is some chemical reaction with the other 90% happening, then why wouldn't it be correct?" So your test kit can tell the difference between 2.5 and 2.75 or 2.25? "BTW I don't have a refractometer and have been told that using hypo with one is more dangerous than using copper with a comparatively hit and miss test kit." You need to buy a refractometer. Its one of the most basic tools in the hobby. Using hypo with a refractometer is safe. Hypo with a hydrometer is not. If you decide to dose copper you need a proper test kit. If you do hypo you need a refractometer. These are the things that need to be purchased to responsibly care for the animals we house in our aquariums. These are not even close to being as expensive as the live rock / sand or even the fish you are trying to save. Its really a no brainer. Continuing as you are without the tools needed at your disposal is likely to end badly.

04/14/2009, 12:24 AM	#33
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	I want to try holding the copper for three weeks as that is said to be the cycle time at normal temps (I am at 82 so this should cover it well). I'll keep a close watch for signs and the lights will stay low. I'll keep the nori up. I have heard good things about chloroquine diphosphate. This may fix my problem altogether (may need to se a veterinarian for a prescription, though).

04/14/2009, 04:37 AM	#35
rkelman Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Belleville, Ontario Canada Posts: 3,438	How do you plan on keeping the Copper levels consistent when you can't test for it?

04/14/2009, 05:22 AM	#36
JoelNB Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 247	I'm hoping that the water will sit tight for the three weeks then I'll gradually change the copper out. If it doesn't, like if I get an ammonia spike or something then I plan to change out the exact amount that coincides with one of my test kit levels and thirdly, the quinine is on the back-burner.

04/14/2009, 03:48 PM	#37
rkelman Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Belleville, Ontario Canada Posts: 3,438	"I'm hoping that the water will sit tight for the three weeks" There is not a chance. Usually the dosage has to be repeated until it stabilizes at a therapeutic level.