New guy... Help needed!

hummermike · 05/02/2009, 11:46 AM

Hello all...great forum!! Been reading for a few days and had to post a dumb question anyway

I've been in the freshwater planted tank hobby for some time and currently run multiple tanks..BUT... freshwater is getting really boring!!

Currently a 55g is my showroom tank in my living room and I want to convert it to a reef tank.

What do I need to do to make this happen? Tank has been up and running for a year now as a FW heavily planted c02 injected tank.

Currently running two aquaclear 110 HOB filters, 3 Powerheads, 2 heaters and using black 3m colorquartz as a substrate

My questions.... do I need to tear down tank and restart, or can an established FW system be easily converted to an already cycled SW system?

I'd like to keep my substrate (looks awesome) is this possible?

any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike

davewbush · 05/02/2009, 11:59 AM

Here is a good place to start looking:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1031074

You will want to tear the tank down because you will want to get live rock to help filter the water. Your heaters and power heads will be fine. If your aquaclear filters have bio-wheels you will want to take the bio-wheels out. You can use the filters to run carbon and gfo. You will also want to get a protien skimmer.
You will not want to have the colorquartz in the tank because it will collect to much waste and it will hurt the tank.

Read, read, and then read some more. This is the best way to get started and ask as many questions as you can a long the way. Welcome to Reef Central.

hummermike · 05/02/2009, 12:03 PM

aquaclears have no bio wheels, so thats good then. They have bio inserts,carbon insets and sponge inserts (3 stages)

Why would 3m colorquartz be a bad thing? I see alot of sand substrates in SW setups and the colorquarts is the same grainsize as sand...just doesn't form gas pockets like the sand does.

hummermike · 05/02/2009, 12:05 PM

oh..and thanks for the link...I've read that multiple times the last few days...but that is for a new setup and my question is a lil different as its a fully established FW tank.

MY lfs told me I can just add salt and liverock and the tank will be already cycled...so I was confused.

davewbush · 05/02/2009, 12:14 PM

With salt water, the sand helps filter the water too. It is full of benifical creatures that help keep it clean and break down the nitrates in the tank. There is a lot of discussion on here about having a sand bed or not. How deep is your quartz bed?

As you read more you will see that a lot of people run there tanks with sumps and the only filter they have on the tank is a protien skimmer and refugium with macro algaes in them. In salt water your main filtration is live rock. The bacteria on it is what keeps the water clean. Then weekly or bi-weekly water changes of 10% to 20% take out nitrates and other things and replenish the nutriens you ned in the tank.

davewbush · 05/02/2009, 12:22 PM

It's not as easy as just adding salt and live rock. You will want to start with fresh water. If you dump the salt into the tank with a substrate in it, a lot of the salt will get traped in it. When you ad live rock the tank will go through a cycle. The cycle will depend on how much die off is on the live rock. All tanks have to cycle. This is when the benificial bacteria is establishing.

Just because you have an established fresh water tank, changing it over to salt water is a new setup.

hummermike · 05/02/2009, 12:28 PM

I have the fine colorquartz, it's very small grain and is very similiar to sand in appeance and performance...its been in the tank for a year so organically and bacteria wise I think it is very well established...but the big question is if those bacteria and organics will transfer to a SW environment?!?!? Substrate is about 2-3"... going to be less as I'm sure lots will be removed in the roots of the plants I'm tanking out when I do the swap to SW.

I'm looking into the sump thing now...that would be great to be able to move my 110's to another tank...would save me money..lol

hummermike · 05/02/2009, 12:29 PM

oops...wrote that post before I saw your last one

my bad

PRDubois · 05/02/2009, 02:50 PM

I think your 3m colorquartz will be fine but you should rinse it out.

I would:
1 - Empty out the tank
2 - put 3m colorquartz in bucket
3 - Wash the tank with Vinager and tapwater
4 - Rinse the tank with tap water
5 - Rinse 3m colorquartz well with tapwater
6 - Put 3m colorquartz back into tank
7 - Put 60 to 75 lbs of Live rock in tank (you can mix base rock and live rock to save money)
8 - Fill tank with premixed saltwater (Buy mixed or mix with powerhead overnight)
9 - Add a good skimmer that is rated for 90gal or more ( most skimmers are underrated) (look at the Octopus 800 HOB)
10 - add a good light ( T5 4 bulb would be good)
11 - Leave running to cycle the water for 1 month testing to see the cycle
12 - After 1 month do a 40% water change and add a good cleanup crew and 1 or 2 fish

You can keep using your HOB filter if you want to polish the water and to run carbon. Just need to make sure it stays clean.

And most important, read all the articles at the beginning of this section

And even more important: - WELCOME

BAYAREA25 · 05/02/2009, 02:54 PM

Freshwater bacteria don't work for saltwater. Osmois will kill them. Basically they will lose the water in them and die. And vice versa for saltwater bacteria. Kinda like salted meat. That's why it doesn't go to waste since the bacteria die off.

U will go through a cycle. And u need sand. And live rock. A skimmer will help. Also strong lights if u want a reef. Bsically you need to read a lot and find out what people do with there tanks. But also more importantly find out what you think is best for you.

But reading is your best tool. Also a new reef ready tank is easyer to start off with. Imo

BAYAREA25 · 05/02/2009, 03:06 PM

Oh also. A saltwater tank cost a lot! I mean so much more then you would think compared to freshwater. So if you don't put money on good skimmer and strong lights. And enough for the live rock etc. Its gonna be hard to keep things alive. Its not as easy as it sounds.
Read a lot before you perchase anything and do anything to your fw tanks. When we give advice, we asume that you know what we are talking about. And also if you used copper meds in your freshwater tanks then everything will just die in a saltwater tank except fish.

Well good luck. Not trying to scare you. Just making you aware of things.

PRDubois · 05/02/2009, 03:12 PM

50lbs of base rock = $100
20 lbs of live rock = $160
4 bulb T5HO light = $300
Octopus 800 skimmer = $230
55 gal saltwater = $55

only $845

hummermike · 05/02/2009, 03:32 PM

cost isn't an issue really

rock I can get free from craigslist and through friends. As a keeper of a high tech planted tank I have all the lighting I'll ever need so thats free. (Thank GOD!!!..that light setup was costly!) Looking at it, I need a skimmer and the water...not too bad

Never used copper in my tanks as I have breeding snails that I didn't want to kill.

PRDubois · 05/02/2009, 03:43 PM

By the way. People will chime in and say not to do this but:

If you want to speed up the cycle then put 3 raw shrimp in a nylon stocking and put it in the tank. It will make your amonia spike really quick which will kick start the cycle process. It works but there are lots of people that will say
" you should just wait and let it do it naturally" or " the live rock is enough"
Shrimp works if you want to save 1 or 2 weeks of the 4 week cycle process

hummermike · 05/03/2009, 10:00 AM

I went to a SW only lfs last night and asked for a manager..out comes a guy I went to school with back in the day...small world!... he was a friend and as far as I know is knowledgable. anyway...

he told me to buy this 4.4gallon bottle of ready salt water and said to buy enough of them to fill tank and leave run with filters and PH for a week...then add live rock and let run for another week...then add fish.

Sound right?

BTW...went to two other fish places to get assorted stuff for my other tanks and looked at the live rock...cheapest they had was $6.99 /pound.....WOW

PRDubois · 05/03/2009, 10:12 AM

Rock is expensive. Your tank will need to cycle which means the amonia will need to spike then that will go down and the nitritates will spike then the nitrites will go down and the nitrates will go up.

When the nitrates elivate and the ammonia and nitrites are low the tank has cycled. Normally takes 4 weeks

Adding the 3 raw shrimp will speed up the process.
Take the shrimp out when the nitrites spike

davewbush · 05/03/2009, 02:38 PM

The price of the bottled water could add up. I would look in to buying a ro/di unit, because over time you need one any ways. Then you need to by a salt mix and you can make your own salt water.

Cycle time will depend on if you use already cured live rock or uncured live rock. Fish after one week is to soon IMO. You can look at some of the RC sponsers and they have Live Rock for cheeper. The shipping is where it adds up.

chilihedkc · 05/03/2009, 09:03 PM

If you are getting into this hobby on a budget, then you are in the wrong hobby my friend. I have done everything either diy, or used equipment, and was in over $2k before I added my first fish! Don't think for a second that just because you have a successful freshwater setup, that all you need to do is add salt and your good ta go. The test kits you will NEED will cost over $100. Think about it before you torture some poor fish, or fishes to death......literally. This hobby does take time, money, friends, knowledge, a decent lfs, the internet, more money, and more time, and patience than you can at this point imagine. I hope you are up to the task. If you want that HOB skimmer, send me a PM.

05/02/2009, 11:46 AM	#1
hummermike Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 28	New guy... Help needed! Hello all...great forum!! Been reading for a few days and had to post a dumb question anyway I've been in the freshwater planted tank hobby for some time and currently run multiple tanks..BUT... freshwater is getting really boring!! Currently a 55g is my showroom tank in my living room and I want to convert it to a reef tank. What do I need to do to make this happen? Tank has been up and running for a year now as a FW heavily planted c02 injected tank. Currently running two aquaclear 110 HOB filters, 3 Powerheads, 2 heaters and using black 3m colorquartz as a substrate My questions.... do I need to tear down tank and restart, or can an established FW system be easily converted to an already cycled SW system? I'd like to keep my substrate (looks awesome) is this possible? any other suggestions? Thanks, Mike

05/02/2009, 02:50 PM	#9
PRDubois Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chester, VA Posts: 3,626	I think your 3m colorquartz will be fine but you should rinse it out. I would: 1 - Empty out the tank 2 - put 3m colorquartz in bucket 3 - Wash the tank with Vinager and tapwater 4 - Rinse the tank with tap water 5 - Rinse 3m colorquartz well with tapwater 6 - Put 3m colorquartz back into tank 7 - Put 60 to 75 lbs of Live rock in tank (you can mix base rock and live rock to save money) 8 - Fill tank with premixed saltwater (Buy mixed or mix with powerhead overnight) 9 - Add a good skimmer that is rated for 90gal or more ( most skimmers are underrated) (look at the Octopus 800 HOB) 10 - add a good light ( T5 4 bulb would be good) 11 - Leave running to cycle the water for 1 month testing to see the cycle 12 - After 1 month do a 40% water change and add a good cleanup crew and 1 or 2 fish You can keep using your HOB filter if you want to polish the water and to run carbon. Just need to make sure it stays clean. And most important, read all the articles at the beginning of this section And even more important: - WELCOME __________________ http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2534403 Current Tank Info: 225 gal Reef, 60 gal reef & 40b frag tank

05/02/2009, 03:12 PM	#12
PRDubois Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chester, VA Posts: 3,626	50lbs of base rock = $100 20 lbs of live rock = $160 4 bulb T5HO light = $300 Octopus 800 skimmer = $230 55 gal saltwater = $55 only $845 __________________ http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2534403 Current Tank Info: 225 gal Reef, 60 gal reef & 40b frag tank

05/02/2009, 03:43 PM	#14
PRDubois Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chester, VA Posts: 3,626	By the way. People will chime in and say not to do this but: If you want to speed up the cycle then put 3 raw shrimp in a nylon stocking and put it in the tank. It will make your amonia spike really quick which will kick start the cycle process. It works but there are lots of people that will say " you should just wait and let it do it naturally" or " the live rock is enough" Shrimp works if you want to save 1 or 2 weeks of the 4 week cycle process __________________ http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2534403 Current Tank Info: 225 gal Reef, 60 gal reef & 40b frag tank

05/03/2009, 10:12 AM	#16
PRDubois Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chester, VA Posts: 3,626	Rock is expensive. Your tank will need to cycle which means the amonia will need to spike then that will go down and the nitritates will spike then the nitrites will go down and the nitrates will go up. When the nitrates elivate and the ammonia and nitrites are low the tank has cycled. Normally takes 4 weeks Adding the 3 raw shrimp will speed up the process. Take the shrimp out when the nitrites spike __________________ http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2534403 Current Tank Info: 225 gal Reef, 60 gal reef & 40b frag tank

05/02/2009, 11:59 AM	#2
davewbush ... Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: California Posts: 739	Here is a good place to start looking: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1031074 You will want to tear the tank down because you will want to get live rock to help filter the water. Your heaters and power heads will be fine. If your aquaclear filters have bio-wheels you will want to take the bio-wheels out. You can use the filters to run carbon and gfo. You will also want to get a protien skimmer. You will not want to have the colorquartz in the tank because it will collect to much waste and it will hurt the tank. Read, read, and then read some more. This is the best way to get started and ask as many questions as you can a long the way. Welcome to Reef Central.

05/02/2009, 12:03 PM	#3
hummermike Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 28	aquaclears have no bio wheels, so thats good then. They have bio inserts,carbon insets and sponge inserts (3 stages) Why would 3m colorquartz be a bad thing? I see alot of sand substrates in SW setups and the colorquarts is the same grainsize as sand...just doesn't form gas pockets like the sand does.

05/02/2009, 12:05 PM	#4
hummermike Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 28	oh..and thanks for the link...I've read that multiple times the last few days...but that is for a new setup and my question is a lil different as its a fully established FW tank. MY lfs told me I can just add salt and liverock and the tank will be already cycled...so I was confused.

05/02/2009, 12:14 PM	#5
davewbush ... Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: California Posts: 739	With salt water, the sand helps filter the water too. It is full of benifical creatures that help keep it clean and break down the nitrates in the tank. There is a lot of discussion on here about having a sand bed or not. How deep is your quartz bed? As you read more you will see that a lot of people run there tanks with sumps and the only filter they have on the tank is a protien skimmer and refugium with macro algaes in them. In salt water your main filtration is live rock. The bacteria on it is what keeps the water clean. Then weekly or bi-weekly water changes of 10% to 20% take out nitrates and other things and replenish the nutriens you ned in the tank.

05/02/2009, 12:22 PM	#6
davewbush ... Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: California Posts: 739	It's not as easy as just adding salt and live rock. You will want to start with fresh water. If you dump the salt into the tank with a substrate in it, a lot of the salt will get traped in it. When you ad live rock the tank will go through a cycle. The cycle will depend on how much die off is on the live rock. All tanks have to cycle. This is when the benificial bacteria is establishing. Just because you have an established fresh water tank, changing it over to salt water is a new setup.

05/02/2009, 12:28 PM	#7
hummermike Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 28	I have the fine colorquartz, it's very small grain and is very similiar to sand in appeance and performance...its been in the tank for a year so organically and bacteria wise I think it is very well established...but the big question is if those bacteria and organics will transfer to a SW environment?!?!? Substrate is about 2-3"... going to be less as I'm sure lots will be removed in the roots of the plants I'm tanking out when I do the swap to SW. I'm looking into the sump thing now...that would be great to be able to move my 110's to another tank...would save me money..lol

05/02/2009, 12:29 PM	#8
hummermike Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 28	oops...wrote that post before I saw your last one my bad

05/02/2009, 02:54 PM	#10
BAYAREA25 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: California Posts: 57	Freshwater bacteria don't work for saltwater. Osmois will kill them. Basically they will lose the water in them and die. And vice versa for saltwater bacteria. Kinda like salted meat. That's why it doesn't go to waste since the bacteria die off. U will go through a cycle. And u need sand. And live rock. A skimmer will help. Also strong lights if u want a reef. Bsically you need to read a lot and find out what people do with there tanks. But also more importantly find out what you think is best for you. But reading is your best tool. Also a new reef ready tank is easyer to start off with. Imo

05/02/2009, 03:06 PM	#11
BAYAREA25 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: California Posts: 57	Oh also. A saltwater tank cost a lot! I mean so much more then you would think compared to freshwater. So if you don't put money on good skimmer and strong lights. And enough for the live rock etc. Its gonna be hard to keep things alive. Its not as easy as it sounds. Read a lot before you perchase anything and do anything to your fw tanks. When we give advice, we asume that you know what we are talking about. And also if you used copper meds in your freshwater tanks then everything will just die in a saltwater tank except fish. Well good luck. Not trying to scare you. Just making you aware of things.

05/02/2009, 03:32 PM	#13
hummermike Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 28	cost isn't an issue really rock I can get free from craigslist and through friends. As a keeper of a high tech planted tank I have all the lighting I'll ever need so thats free. (Thank GOD!!!..that light setup was costly!) Looking at it, I need a skimmer and the water...not too bad Never used copper in my tanks as I have breeding snails that I didn't want to kill.

05/03/2009, 10:00 AM	#15
hummermike Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 28	I went to a SW only lfs last night and asked for a manager..out comes a guy I went to school with back in the day...small world!... he was a friend and as far as I know is knowledgable. anyway... he told me to buy this 4.4gallon bottle of ready salt water and said to buy enough of them to fill tank and leave run with filters and PH for a week...then add live rock and let run for another week...then add fish. Sound right? BTW...went to two other fish places to get assorted stuff for my other tanks and looked at the live rock...cheapest they had was $6.99 /pound.....WOW

05/03/2009, 02:38 PM	#17
davewbush ... Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: California Posts: 739	The price of the bottled water could add up. I would look in to buying a ro/di unit, because over time you need one any ways. Then you need to by a salt mix and you can make your own salt water. Cycle time will depend on if you use already cured live rock or uncured live rock. Fish after one week is to soon IMO. You can look at some of the RC sponsers and they have Live Rock for cheeper. The shipping is where it adds up.

05/03/2009, 09:03 PM	#18
chilihedkc Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: kansas Posts: 100	If you are getting into this hobby on a budget, then you are in the wrong hobby my friend. I have done everything either diy, or used equipment, and was in over $2k before I added my first fish! Don't think for a second that just because you have a successful freshwater setup, that all you need to do is add salt and your good ta go. The test kits you will NEED will cost over $100. Think about it before you torture some poor fish, or fishes to death......literally. This hobby does take time, money, friends, knowledge, a decent lfs, the internet, more money, and more time, and patience than you can at this point imagine. I hope you are up to the task. If you want that HOB skimmer, send me a PM.