Cycle with damsels? Then what happened?

pmrossetti · 08/30/2009, 04:55 PM

What did you add next? What problems did you have, if any. Thanks

sedor · 08/30/2009, 05:04 PM

The damsels beat up the expensive tangs because they had a grudge for treating them badly and making them breathe in heavy amounts of ammonia during the cycle.

All joking aside its much better to use something like a raw table shrimp to start your cycle...using damsels is somewhat frowned upon these days because its mean, and also because they are undesirable to have in the tank most of the time. The little devils will beat the crap out of bigger, more expensive fish and they can be almost impossible to catch.

What I would do is remove them and take them back to the LFS, then maybe start with a clown and a small CUC to get the tank on cue. Remember to move slowly, because as you increase your bioload your tank is going to continue to do ultra mini cycles as it builds everything up. Don't go adding 5 fish at once.

pmrossetti · 08/30/2009, 05:19 PM

Of course I agree. Always felt sorry for damsels, cramped tanks at fish stores, bad water in home aquariums and alot of times returned to cramped fish store tank or disposed of. Glad things have changed.

Grassroots · 08/30/2009, 05:31 PM

I actually like my damsel fish, he is colorful attractive and always out. He isnt aggressive to toward my other fish.

pmrossetti · 08/30/2009, 05:34 PM

Great to hear G

reefergeorge · 08/30/2009, 06:11 PM

My puffer ate him.

jkeating2005 · 08/30/2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reefergeorge
My puffer ate him.

when i purchased my tank, the owner had like 4 different damsels. what a pain it was to get them out. then i just brought them to the fish store and gave them away! lol

IridescentLily · 08/30/2009, 07:00 PM

Back in the day, i have to be honest and say that i used a blue damsel and two striped damsels to cycle my tank. That's what the lfs had suggested, and unfortauntely this was an accepted way back then.

Anyway, all three did well through it (boggles the mind), and the three would (try) and bully my flame angel and the coral beauty when i added them together later.

They would also fight between the three of them. I guess you'd call it an agressive tank. lol

The blue damsel would always lose. The angels and the different type of damsels beat the crap out of him.
He would usually win a fight with the two striped damsels.
So all three of the damsels were always tattered and whatnot most of the time. That never stopped them though from (trying) to harass the angels every chance they got.

The three of them never bothered my tang. The tang was the king of the tank and he was above all that, lol.

Eventually i had to take the damsels out, gave the striped ones to the lfs, and put the blue damsel in another 40g tank i had running, because i was tired of seeing him all p***ed off and tattered all the time.

Felix T Cat · 08/30/2009, 07:28 PM

I donated the 3 (2 yellow tails and 1 3 stripe) I saved in a tank purchase to a LFS. They were added to a brand new 1500G live rock setup they were in the process of building.
It was prety funny when the guy dropped them in, all 3 froze in one place like OMG we are back in the ocean.

Red Firefish · 08/30/2009, 11:09 PM

I think maybe we should change the way we think about the idea of "cycling" a tank. The cycles that a new tank goes through involve ecological maturity and population dynamics much more than aerobic bacterial content (the way it used to when we weren't using live rock).

If live rock was even remotely fresh when it began curing, there should have been more than enough decomposition to supply the necessary nitrogen content to feed aerobic bacterial growth during the curing process. Once the rock is cured, these bacteria are, in my experience, ALWAYS capable of processing the ammonia and nitrite introduced by new animals.

Instead, I think there is a compelling argument for leaving a new tank full of live rock with NO fish for several months, allowing the sandbed to mature and populations of microorganisms to develop free of predation. We would almost certainly see much less severity in "algae cycles" with no food going into the system, and higher densities of the precious crustacean varieties (pods) that make a reef so much healthier.

I personally have taken this approach on three systems now, and have seen other hobbyists do the same thing, and these systems don't have the algae or nitrate/phosphate issues over the long term that so many hobbyists seem to battle.

I've never understood the idea that a rancid and decaying table shrimp would be beneficial to a tank's development, as suggested above. Live rock, by virtue of its diversity, serves as its own ammonia source during the curing process. And even if we needed to test its nitrifying potential, inorganic ammonium chloride could spike our test kits easily enough to provide a quantitative way to monitor how much ammonia a new system is capable of processing; all without the nasty side effect of potentially cultivating random bacteria that we may not want to subject our fish to.

It's always been my approach to skip the damsel phase and just let the tank mature on its own after I add the live rock. If you've already "cycled" with damsels, it wouldn't be too hard to just remove the damsels and add a few of the fish you plan to keep, with or without an extended break between those two events.

Anyway, hope that helps- it's worked well for me through many, many tanks now. Good luck!

meatball87 · 08/30/2009, 11:52 PM

put an eel in there and u wont have to worry about any damsels

andrewk529 · 08/31/2009, 12:14 AM

i might draw a lot of misguided criticism stating this...but i've debated this topic before..in my opinion there's clearly and evolutionary mechanism damsels have developed over time which allows the species to deal with certain concentrations of nitrites/ammonia. Now there mite be other "better" methods more commonly employed today to cycle tanks. everyone shouldn't jump down someones throat about cycling a tank with damsels..especially if you hypocritically kill nuisance species in your tank

Red Firefish · 08/31/2009, 12:41 AM

Andrewk-

Forgive my arguing, but I don't think I can agree with your statement.

What selection pressure do you think would prompt wild individuals in the Pomacentrus family to "develop and evolutionary mechanism to deal with certain concentrations of nitrites/ammonia [sic]"? Such high-nitrogen conditions don't (to my knowledge anyway) occur on natural reefs at all, let alone regularly enough to induce an evolutionary change in an entire family of fish. Just curious what your thoughts are on this.

Beaun · 08/31/2009, 06:16 AM

The reason I wouldnt use damsels to cycle a tank is because that furthers the collection of them, when people really dont want to buy them for anything other than that. There are lots of other hardy fish you can buy to cycle a tank with other than a damsel. If you saw the way damsels are collected and their survivability from capture to LFS tanks, you would think so also.

nyvp · 08/31/2009, 09:04 AM

I like blue/green chromis better . Back when, I was told to pee in the tank to get things started. ahh the good ole days.

andrewk529 · 08/31/2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Red Firefish
Andrewk-

Forgive my arguing, but I don't think I can agree with your statement.

What selection pressure do you think would prompt wild individuals in the Pomacentrus family to "develop and evolutionary mechanism to deal with certain concentrations of nitrites/ammonia [sic]"? Such high-nitrogen conditions don't (to my knowledge anyway) occur on natural reefs at all, let alone regularly enough to induce an evolutionary change in an entire family of fish. Just curious what your thoughts are on this.

well pollution for one in today's setting...in times prior to human industrialization run off from rivers would be another possible source... if you ever have taken a biology class, you would know random genetic mutations do occur. take into perspective the millions of years these fish evolved. a lot could happen in that time frame. It obvious damsels have adapted to certain water conditions not conducive for other marine fish, why this happened is speculation. The point is you can't always anthropomorphize fish.

Servillius · 08/31/2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by andrewk529
well pollution for one in today's setting...in times prior to human industrialization run off from rivers would be another possible source... if you ever have taken a biology class, you would know random genetic mutations do occur. take into perspective the millions of years these fish evolved. a lot could happen in that time frame. It obvious damsels have adapted to certain water conditions not conducive for other marine fish, why this happened is speculation. The point is you can't always anthropomorphize fish.

I have to say I'm not a fan of needless cruelty. I think you make an excellent point though. Where there are better methods, we should use them. Fish are fish though, we eat them and anyone with a fishtank knows so does everything else.

As for the damsel resistance issue, as you say, there are loads of reasons why they could be more tolorant of poor conditions than other fish. It could be a random, seemingly purposeless adaption, it could be an adaption to an earlier environment that over time is no longer useful, or it could be an adaption to some other condition that has the side effect of making them hardier. While I have no evidence that they are in fact more durable in the face of ammonia, its probably fairly easily proven and there are many possible reasons why this would be the case.

08/30/2009, 04:55 PM	#1
pmrossetti Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cali. Posts: 3,199	Cycle with damsels? Then what happened? What did you add next? What problems did you have, if any. Thanks

08/30/2009, 05:04 PM	#2
sedor Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 4,689	The damsels beat up the expensive tangs because they had a grudge for treating them badly and making them breathe in heavy amounts of ammonia during the cycle. All joking aside its much better to use something like a raw table shrimp to start your cycle...using damsels is somewhat frowned upon these days because its mean, and also because they are undesirable to have in the tank most of the time. The little devils will beat the crap out of bigger, more expensive fish and they can be almost impossible to catch. What I would do is remove them and take them back to the LFS, then maybe start with a clown and a small CUC to get the tank on cue. Remember to move slowly, because as you increase your bioload your tank is going to continue to do ultra mini cycles as it builds everything up. Don't go adding 5 fish at once. __________________ Ryan

08/30/2009, 05:31 PM	#4
Grassroots Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Kennesaw GA Posts: 270	I actually like my damsel fish, he is colorful attractive and always out. He isnt aggressive to toward my other fish. __________________ Bobby -------------- Current Tank Info: 700+ gallons of water...

08/30/2009, 06:11 PM	#6
reefergeorge Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St Louis MO Posts: 4,222	My puffer ate him. __________________ $35-50 for a <1" frag of some stupid named thing that came from a colony you bought for $40-60 wholesale and chopped into 20-40 pieces? No thanks. "JasonH" Current Tank Info: 125 aggressive reef, DIY led lighting, swc cone skimmer, 33 gallon sump, posiden Ps3 return.

08/30/2009, 07:00 PM	#8
IridescentLily Editor-Reefkeeping mag Join Date: May 2008 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 3,858 Blog Entries: 5	Back in the day, i have to be honest and say that i used a blue damsel and two striped damsels to cycle my tank. That's what the lfs had suggested, and unfortauntely this was an accepted way back then. Anyway, all three did well through it (boggles the mind), and the three would (try) and bully my flame angel and the coral beauty when i added them together later. They would also fight between the three of them. I guess you'd call it an agressive tank. lol The blue damsel would always lose. The angels and the different type of damsels beat the crap out of him. He would usually win a fight with the two striped damsels. So all three of the damsels were always tattered and whatnot most of the time. That never stopped them though from (trying) to harass the angels every chance they got. The three of them never bothered my tang. The tang was the king of the tank and he was above all that, lol. Eventually i had to take the damsels out, gave the striped ones to the lfs, and put the blue damsel in another 40g tank i had running, because i was tired of seeing him all p***ed off and tattered all the time. __________________ ~April Editor-Reefkeeping Magazine

08/30/2009, 05:19 PM	#3
pmrossetti Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cali. Posts: 3,199	Of course I agree. Always felt sorry for damsels, cramped tanks at fish stores, bad water in home aquariums and alot of times returned to cramped fish store tank or disposed of. Glad things have changed.

08/30/2009, 05:34 PM	#5
pmrossetti Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cali. Posts: 3,199	Great to hear G

08/30/2009, 07:28 PM	#9
Felix T Cat Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Honey Brook, PA Posts: 557	I donated the 3 (2 yellow tails and 1 3 stripe) I saved in a tank purchase to a LFS. They were added to a brand new 1500G live rock setup they were in the process of building. It was prety funny when the guy dropped them in, all 3 froze in one place like OMG we are back in the ocean.

08/30/2009, 11:09 PM	#10
Red Firefish Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: AZ Posts: 64	I think maybe we should change the way we think about the idea of "cycling" a tank. The cycles that a new tank goes through involve ecological maturity and population dynamics much more than aerobic bacterial content (the way it used to when we weren't using live rock). If live rock was even remotely fresh when it began curing, there should have been more than enough decomposition to supply the necessary nitrogen content to feed aerobic bacterial growth during the curing process. Once the rock is cured, these bacteria are, in my experience, ALWAYS capable of processing the ammonia and nitrite introduced by new animals. Instead, I think there is a compelling argument for leaving a new tank full of live rock with NO fish for several months, allowing the sandbed to mature and populations of microorganisms to develop free of predation. We would almost certainly see much less severity in "algae cycles" with no food going into the system, and higher densities of the precious crustacean varieties (pods) that make a reef so much healthier. I personally have taken this approach on three systems now, and have seen other hobbyists do the same thing, and these systems don't have the algae or nitrate/phosphate issues over the long term that so many hobbyists seem to battle. I've never understood the idea that a rancid and decaying table shrimp would be beneficial to a tank's development, as suggested above. Live rock, by virtue of its diversity, serves as its own ammonia source during the curing process. And even if we needed to test its nitrifying potential, inorganic ammonium chloride could spike our test kits easily enough to provide a quantitative way to monitor how much ammonia a new system is capable of processing; all without the nasty side effect of potentially cultivating random bacteria that we may not want to subject our fish to. It's always been my approach to skip the damsel phase and just let the tank mature on its own after I add the live rock. If you've already "cycled" with damsels, it wouldn't be too hard to just remove the damsels and add a few of the fish you plan to keep, with or without an extended break between those two events. Anyway, hope that helps- it's worked well for me through many, many tanks now. Good luck!

08/30/2009, 11:52 PM	#11
meatball87 tang freak Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: london oh Posts: 258	put an eel in there and u wont have to worry about any damsels

08/31/2009, 12:14 AM	#12
andrewk529 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: wilmington, delaware Posts: 317	i might draw a lot of misguided criticism stating this...but i've debated this topic before..in my opinion there's clearly and evolutionary mechanism damsels have developed over time which allows the species to deal with certain concentrations of nitrites/ammonia. Now there mite be other "better" methods more commonly employed today to cycle tanks. everyone shouldn't jump down someones throat about cycling a tank with damsels..especially if you hypocritically kill nuisance species in your tank

08/31/2009, 12:41 AM	#13
Red Firefish Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: AZ Posts: 64	Andrewk- Forgive my arguing, but I don't think I can agree with your statement. What selection pressure do you think would prompt wild individuals in the Pomacentrus family to "develop and evolutionary mechanism to deal with certain concentrations of nitrites/ammonia [sic]"? Such high-nitrogen conditions don't (to my knowledge anyway) occur on natural reefs at all, let alone regularly enough to induce an evolutionary change in an entire family of fish. Just curious what your thoughts are on this.

08/31/2009, 06:16 AM	#14
Beaun It's pronounced Bone Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Hampton, NY Posts: 1,967	The reason I wouldnt use damsels to cycle a tank is because that furthers the collection of them, when people really dont want to buy them for anything other than that. There are lots of other hardy fish you can buy to cycle a tank with other than a damsel. If you saw the way damsels are collected and their survivability from capture to LFS tanks, you would think so also. __________________ -Tyler "The only legitimate use of a computer is to play games." -Eugene Jarvis Current Tank Info: None

08/31/2009, 09:04 AM	#15
nyvp Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hollywood Florida Posts: 3,633	I like blue/green chromis better . Back when, I was told to pee in the tank to get things started. ahh the good ole days.