Balancing overflow and return rate

greenesgreen · 08/31/2009, 07:12 AM

I have ball valves on both my return and my overflow drain and im having a little trouble getting my DT and my sump levels stable. Is there a better way of doing this other than just tweeking the drain valve. I can get it pretty close with the drain closed about have way and the returns wide open but the sump level creeps up over time. How are yours setup?

sdc19982002 · 08/31/2009, 08:32 AM

I would not have a valve on the drain line. You only want to adjust the return. You need to tell us what size return pump and return and drain pipe sizes. i assume this is for your 75 gallon.

billdogg · 08/31/2009, 08:45 AM

what ^^^sdc19982002^^^ said - NEVER restrict the drain!!! You will end up with a flood sooner or later. Use a ball or gate valve only on the return side to cut back flow from the sump.

greenesgreen · 08/31/2009, 11:04 AM

the problem im having is that my return cant keep up with my drain. I have a 30gal sump with a Mag-7 return pump plumbed to 3/4" pvc that is split to each end of the tank. My drain is 1" pvc straight to the sump. If i have all valves open, my drain will fill my sump faster than my pump can get the water up. I only have about 3 1/2 to 4' of head. Do i need a bigger pump?

EverettReef · 08/31/2009, 11:19 AM

Is the upper level of your drain somehow situated lower than the volume of your sump can handle when power is out? It should just be that you drain what you have pumped. How is your drain setup? Do you have a standpipe or a HOB overflow or a through the back overflow?

Lyfey · 08/31/2009, 11:39 AM

I would turn all power off and tank out excess water out of your sump.

greenesgreen · 08/31/2009, 12:32 PM

my drain is just 1" pvc through the bulkhead, no box or anything.
I'll try taking some water out of my sump with the power off, thanks for the advice.

seapug · 08/31/2009, 12:42 PM

If your drain is too small to handle the pump output, you have 3 options:

1. put a valve on the return pump output to slow the flow
2. use a less powerful return pump
3. get a larger drain

As stated above, do not put any sort of flow restrictor on the drain.

ddinox64 · 08/31/2009, 01:07 PM

Does it drain out the back or the bottom?

Valves on drains is totally exceptable. Depends on your draining system of course. HEBIE and BEANANIMIAL run with valves and are meant to.

You're going to have to create yourself some type of standpipe or atleast the head of one if it's through the back.

Pictures?

EnglishRebel · 08/31/2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by greenesgreen
the problem im having is that my return cant keep up with my drain. I have a 30gal sump with a Mag-7 return pump plumbed to 3/4" pvc that is split to each end of the tank. My drain is 1" pvc straight to the sump. If i have all valves open, my drain will fill my sump faster than my pump can get the water up. I only have about 3 1/2 to 4' of head. Do i need a bigger pump?

Basically you have two options:[list=1][*]Put a gate valve on the return and fine tune it until the return is balanced. As others have said -- do not put a valve on the drain.[*]A bigger pump.[/list=1]It's a simple matter of balance that's all.
The idea to turn the pump off and let all the water drain down below your overflow and then remove water from the sump until the level is at a reasonable point (i.e. it's not overflowing) is a good suggestion. If you ever need to turn your pump off you will not have a flood.

seapug · 08/31/2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ddinox64

Valves on drains is totally exceptable. Depends on your draining system of course. HEBIE and BEANANIMIAL run with valves and are meant to.

Pictures?

Can you explain this more? I guess I don't understand how you could slow the flow out of a drain fed by a pump without causing a backup.

The rate at which water flows down a drain is the product of the power of the return pump. If the water coming out of a drain is reduced to a rate slower than the pump that is feeding water to it, you will have more water being fed to the drain than what is being let out of it, which would cause a rise in water level.

would it not? what am I missing here?

FirstContact · 08/31/2009, 02:16 PM

Yes the answer is to go with a more powerful pump. Put a in a T and a valve just above the pump to drain water back to the sump if the pump is too powerful.

greenesgreen · 08/31/2009, 02:44 PM

when i get home this evening im going to remove some water to prevent the flooding. Another question, is my MAG-7 enough pump for my 75gal. I used the flow calculator and with my setup im getting about 400gph, is this enough. I also have 2 koreila 2's in my DT, am i moving enough water?

kdc527 · 08/31/2009, 03:38 PM

well you might be a little short on flow. My 55 has a mag 9 return turned back just a hair and i am running 2 Korlia 3's and a seio 530. That might be a little overkill but I hate my korlia 3's the output is not what they claim I swear. keep an eye out for dead spots you may need to add a little more flow.

KillerReef · 08/31/2009, 03:55 PM

I also have a mag 9 on my 80 gallon with about 4ft head. I also have a 2" drain pipe. My sump is 17" tall and water in sump is 8.5". I also turn back my return just ever so slightly only because of sand storms if full throttle. I agree 400gph is not nearly enough, that is only 5x turnover per hr. 10 is preferred. I saw a mag 9 on sale yesterday. I'll see if I can find it again...

cdbias2 · 08/31/2009, 04:35 PM

If your sump overflows when you turn off the pump.....That means you have too much water in the sump/tank/system.....period.

KillerReef · 08/31/2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cdbias2
If your sump overflows when you turn off the pump.....That means you have too much water in the sump/tank/system.....period.

What he said...

seapug · 08/31/2009, 04:41 PM

yes, you do need to leave enough room in your sump to accomodate back-siphon when the return is shut off, but something still doesn't make sense here.

It is physically impossible for the drain to empty water faster than it is pumped into the tank if there is only one return pump in the system.

The OP says:

"If i have all valves open, my drain will fill my sump faster than my pump can get the water up. I only have about 3 1/2 to 4' of head. Do i need a bigger pump?"

I do not understand how this is possible. Water can only drain to the sump as fast as it is pumped into the display.

KillerReef · 08/31/2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seapug
yes, you do need to leave enough room in your sump to accomodate back-siphon when the return is shut off, but something still doesn't make sense here.

It is physically impossible for the drain to empty water faster than it is pumped into the tank if there is only one return pump in the system.

The OP says:

"If i have all valves open, my drain will fill my sump faster than my pump can get the water up. I only have about 3 1/2 to 4' of head. Do i need a bigger pump?"

I do not understand how this is possible. Water can only drain to the sump as fast as it is pumped into the display.

Exactly. I'm totally confused. Are you overflowing in the sump or the DT? By chance, when you did a water change, did you put more water in than you took out? Just some thoughts

greenesgreen · 09/01/2009, 08:07 AM

well dont i feel like a fool. I didnt take into consideration that my 80 lbs of rock might have displaced a little water. Drained about 8gal and everything is fine now. Sometimes i wonder how i made it this far, thanks for all the advice. Did in fact have to cut back on my return a little, but everything is balanced out now.

KillerReef · 09/01/2009, 10:07 AM

glad to hear it...

08/31/2009, 07:12 AM	#1
greenesgreen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 61	Balancing overflow and return rate I have ball valves on both my return and my overflow drain and im having a little trouble getting my DT and my sump levels stable. Is there a better way of doing this other than just tweeking the drain valve. I can get it pretty close with the drain closed about have way and the returns wide open but the sump level creeps up over time. How are yours setup?

08/31/2009, 08:45 AM	#3
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	what ^^^sdc19982002^^^ said - NEVER restrict the drain!!! You will end up with a flood sooner or later. Use a ball or gate valve only on the return side to cut back flow from the sump. __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

08/31/2009, 11:19 AM	#5
EverettReef Lounge Pariah Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Everett, Wa Posts: 257	Is the upper level of your drain somehow situated lower than the volume of your sump can handle when power is out? It should just be that you drain what you have pumped. How is your drain setup? Do you have a standpipe or a HOB overflow or a through the back overflow? __________________ Bruce

08/31/2009, 12:42 PM	#8
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	If your drain is too small to handle the pump output, you have 3 options: 1. put a valve on the return pump output to slow the flow 2. use a less powerful return pump 3. get a larger drain As stated above, do not put any sort of flow restrictor on the drain. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

08/31/2009, 02:16 PM	#12
FirstContact Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Glenn Dale, MD Posts: 1,613	Yes the answer is to go with a more powerful pump. Put a in a T and a valve just above the pump to drain water back to the sump if the pump is too powerful. __________________ No man is an island entire of itself; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. John Donne Current Tank Info: 120g Reef 100g Rubbermaid Sump, 20g Refugium; previous tank: 46g Drilled; Self Plumbed, Birds Nest, Anchor, Xenia, Zoas, Yuma Yuma Ricordea, Chalice, Mushrooms, Brain, Acan, Anenome Plate; Clams, Other Inverts, Fish, Live Rock

08/31/2009, 08:32 AM	#2
sdc19982002 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Wills Point,Texas Posts: 925	I would not have a valve on the drain line. You only want to adjust the return. You need to tell us what size return pump and return and drain pipe sizes. i assume this is for your 75 gallon.

08/31/2009, 11:04 AM	#4
greenesgreen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 61	the problem im having is that my return cant keep up with my drain. I have a 30gal sump with a Mag-7 return pump plumbed to 3/4" pvc that is split to each end of the tank. My drain is 1" pvc straight to the sump. If i have all valves open, my drain will fill my sump faster than my pump can get the water up. I only have about 3 1/2 to 4' of head. Do i need a bigger pump?

08/31/2009, 11:39 AM	#6
Lyfey Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 842	I would turn all power off and tank out excess water out of your sump.

08/31/2009, 12:32 PM	#7
greenesgreen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 61	my drain is just 1" pvc through the bulkhead, no box or anything. I'll try taking some water out of my sump with the power off, thanks for the advice.

08/31/2009, 01:07 PM	#9
ddinox64 Moved On Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Ca. Posts: 1,327	Does it drain out the back or the bottom? Valves on drains is totally exceptable. Depends on your draining system of course. HEBIE and BEANANIMIAL run with valves and are meant to. You're going to have to create yourself some type of standpipe or atleast the head of one if it's through the back. Pictures?

08/31/2009, 02:44 PM	#13
greenesgreen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 61	when i get home this evening im going to remove some water to prevent the flooding. Another question, is my MAG-7 enough pump for my 75gal. I used the flow calculator and with my setup im getting about 400gph, is this enough. I also have 2 koreila 2's in my DT, am i moving enough water?

08/31/2009, 03:38 PM	#14
kdc527 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Boyertown, PA Posts: 333	well you might be a little short on flow. My 55 has a mag 9 return turned back just a hair and i am running 2 Korlia 3's and a seio 530. That might be a little overkill but I hate my korlia 3's the output is not what they claim I swear. keep an eye out for dead spots you may need to add a little more flow. __________________ she thinks the fish are pretty Current Tank Info: 55 gallon reef 29 gallon sump 2 korlia 2's mag5 return current 48"pc light

08/31/2009, 03:55 PM	#15
KillerReef Wrasse-a-holic Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: So Cal Posts: 2,083	I also have a mag 9 on my 80 gallon with about 4ft head. I also have a 2" drain pipe. My sump is 17" tall and water in sump is 8.5". I also turn back my return just ever so slightly only because of sand storms if full throttle. I agree 400gph is not nearly enough, that is only 5x turnover per hr. 10 is preferred. I saw a mag 9 on sale yesterday. I'll see if I can find it again... __________________ 80 gallon Jebo 48x18x21 Bubble Magus BM-180 Cone 110lbs Live Rock 1-2" Sandbed Mag 12 Return Pump 2 MP10s, One Left Rear, One Right front Opposite each Other 2x65w pc 03 Actinic 2 250W Lumatek w/ SE Phoenix MH about 4" above water Livestock: 10 yr. old Purple Tang, Orchid Dottyback, Melanurus Wrasse, Pink Margin Wrasse, Pair of Clowns, Bartlett Anthias, Diamond Goby, 18 yr. old Lemon Peel Angel, Blue Flasher Wrasse Mixed Reef, mostly Zoanthids

08/31/2009, 04:35 PM	#16
cdbias2 Appalachian Reef Society Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Alum Creek, WV (No more) Posts: 1,433	If your sump overflows when you turn off the pump.....That means you have too much water in the sump/tank/system.....period.

08/31/2009, 04:41 PM	#18
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	yes, you do need to leave enough room in your sump to accomodate back-siphon when the return is shut off, but something still doesn't make sense here. It is physically impossible for the drain to empty water faster than it is pumped into the tank if there is only one return pump in the system. The OP says: "If i have all valves open, my drain will fill my sump faster than my pump can get the water up. I only have about 3 1/2 to 4' of head. Do i need a bigger pump?" I do not understand how this is possible. Water can only drain to the sump as fast as it is pumped into the display. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

09/01/2009, 08:07 AM	#20
greenesgreen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 61	well dont i feel like a fool. I didnt take into consideration that my 80 lbs of rock might have displaced a little water. Drained about 8gal and everything is fine now. Sometimes i wonder how i made it this far, thanks for all the advice. Did in fact have to cut back on my return a little, but everything is balanced out now.

09/01/2009, 10:07 AM	#21
KillerReef Wrasse-a-holic Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: So Cal Posts: 2,083	glad to hear it... __________________ 80 gallon Jebo 48x18x21 Bubble Magus BM-180 Cone 110lbs Live Rock 1-2" Sandbed Mag 12 Return Pump 2 MP10s, One Left Rear, One Right front Opposite each Other 2x65w pc 03 Actinic 2 250W Lumatek w/ SE Phoenix MH about 4" above water Livestock: 10 yr. old Purple Tang, Orchid Dottyback, Melanurus Wrasse, Pink Margin Wrasse, Pair of Clowns, Bartlett Anthias, Diamond Goby, 18 yr. old Lemon Peel Angel, Blue Flasher Wrasse Mixed Reef, mostly Zoanthids